'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day

[Gerr]

Quote:

And can you find one verse that promises life to the one who practises sin? Feel free to use the OT or NT, OC or NC.

Can you find one saved person who does NOT practice sin? Are you one who does not practice sin? Speaking for myself ... I practice sin. But I am saved in my sin.

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outburts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past. THAT THOSE WHO PRACTICE SUCH THINGS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD." Gal 5:19 NKJ.

""For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them." Eph 5:5-7 NKJ

"You shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people FROM their sins." Mt 1:21. NKJ

"I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." Gal 5:16

Gerry

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

And can you find one verse that promises life to the one who practises sin? Feel free to use the OT or NT, OC or NC.

Can you find one saved person who does NOT practice sin? Are you one who does not practice sin? Speaking for myself ... I practice sin. But I am saved in my sin.

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outburts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past. THAT THOSE WHO PRACTICE SUCH THINGS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD." Gal 5:19 NKJ.

""For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them." Eph 5:5-7 NKJ

"You shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people FROM their sins." Mt 1:21. NKJ

"I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." Gal 5:16

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

In the end ... we are not judged by our works but we are judged by the works of Jesus with HIS doing and dying.

"And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books....And they were judged, each one according to his works." Rev 20:12,13 NKJ

"Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe -- and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?" Jam 2:18-20 NKJ

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection." DA 357

[Woody]

Gerry ... those we are NOT saved are judged by their works. The saved are judged by the works of Jesus.

[Robert]

1) At what historical point did the 4th commandment become meaningless?

2) What is in the ark of the covenant in heaven that John saw?

3) The Bible and Ellen White both say that the law of God is eternal as God Himself is eternal. That includes the Sabbath commandment.

The law didn't exist before the fall. The was was given to expose sin....It wasn't complete...it was only a brief summary of righteousness. Jesus expanded upon the law when He was on earth. Why did He do that? The law is much more than 10 brief rules....It is spiritual. Nevertheless, the law can be broken down into one phrase: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Again, no self-love...only agape love!

[Robert]

Ex 20:8-11 says it's a sign of creation & deliverance

No...just creation! Nothing about redemption.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

1) At what historical point did the 4th commandment become meaningless?

2) What is in the ark of the covenant in heaven that John saw?

3) The Bible and Ellen White both say that the law of God is eternal as God Himself is eternal. That includes the Sabbath commandment.

The law didn't exist before the fall. The was was given to expose sin....It wasn't complete...it was only a brief summary of righteousness. Jesus expanded upon the law when He was on earth. Why did He do that? The law is much more than 10 brief rules....It is spiritual. Nevertheless, the law can be broken down into one phrase: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Again, no self-love...only agape love!

The law was not put in written form before the fall, and it was not written down until God proclaimed it and wrote it at Sinai. That much is true. But the fact that it was not written doesn't mean it didn't exist. Do you agree with this?

You said, "The 4th commandment is meaningless because it no longer points to a perfect and sinless creation."

My question is, when did the 4th commandment become meaningless? For instance, was it meaningful in Christ's time?

Also, what is in the ark of the covenant that John saw in heaven (Rev. 11: 19)?

[Robert]

Quote:

Show me, using the law, where it links God's redemptive act "in Christ" to the law [see Hebrews 4]. It just isn't there!

"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."

[Robert]

My question is, when did the 4th commandment become meaningless? For instance, was it meaningful in Christ's time?

[Robert]

You know what? I'm learning that if it isn't connected directly to the law legalists won't accept it.

[John317]

[John317]

Quote:

As connected to the gospel, yes! See Hebrews 4 [/quote']

Before the death of Christ, is there any mention of a change in the purpose of the Sabbath or in the day on which the Sabbath is to be kept?

Hebrews 4: 9 simply says that the weekly Sabbath is a reminder or pointer to the sabbath [rest] that still awaits God's people.

I don't see anything in the whole of Hebrews 4 that sets the Sabbath commandment aside or makes it meaningless.

Hebrews 4 gives it greater meaning for the Christian who understands Christ's work of salvation, but it certainly does not do away with it or make the 4th commandment meaningless. Where, specifically, in Hebrews 4, does the Bible make the Sabbath commandment meaningless?

Christ, of course, as you'll recall, specifically rejected the idea that by coming here, He was setting aside the law in any way.

[Robert]

Before the death of Christ, is there any mention of a change in the purpose of the Sabbath or in the day on which the Sabbath is to be kept?

[Robert]

I'll take you on here because I can easily disprove such nonsense.

THEREFORE, let us [the Hebrews of Paul’s time] fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.

The Jews were already in Canaan - the Promised Land. Therefore Paul was not speaking of “His rest” being the land of Canaan. Then what does Paul mean by “His rest”?

For indeed we [believers] have had the gospel preached to us, just as they also [the Jews in the time of the exodus]; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

3 For we who have believed enter that rest…

This is very clear language! Those who have accepted the gospel by faith have entered “God’s rest”. Hence the phrase “His rest” is synonymous with “the gospel”. Those who have entered “His rest” have accepted the gospel!

Now keep this phrase, "God's rest" in your mind:

"There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest [a keeping of the Sabbath] for the people of God [the Jews]"

Weren't the Jews keeping the Sabbath according to the law? Yes! Then why did there "remain" a keeping of the Sabbath when they were keeping the Sabbath?

Ah, they were keeping the right day, but they were doing it legalistically. They needed to enter God's rest (accept the gospel) and as a seal of justification by faith then they could keep the Sabbath as related to the gospel. They should have rested outwardly as a seal that God rested from His perfect work of redemption "in Christ Jesus".

Rob

[Robert]

When we make Sabbath keeping a requirement for salvation, we are not really entering into God’s rest, which points to a perfect and finished salvation, but have turned His Sabbath into salvation by works, the very opposite of what the Sabbath was intended for. And since by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight, such Sabbath keeping becomes meaningless. [Jack S.]

[Robert]

Hebrews 4:9 There remains, therefore, a keeping of the Sabbath for God’s people.

Were the Jews keeping the Sabbath to whom Paul wrote? Were they keeping the day? Will they go to heaven? If they will go to heaven, then verse nine becomes meaningless. He says, “There remaineth, therefore, a rest for the people of God.” In other words, if you keep the day and reject the Lord of that day, who is Christ, heaven is not yours. It is possible for you to keep the Sabbath and be lost. I am talking to Seventh-day Adventists. It is possible for you to keep that day and be lost. That is why we need to understand the connection of the Sabbath with the gospel.

What Paul is saying in verse nine is there remains a true Sabbath rest for whom? You see, to the Jews, the Sabbath was “do’s and don’ts.” There are 69 rules, if you look at the Mishna, on how to keep the Sabbath. Some of them are ridiculous.

I was coming home from a program in England and a woman put her head out of a high window. All I could see [of her] was from her neck up. She said, “Excuse me, will you come and do me a favor?”

I said, “What would you like?”

“Can you switch my light on?”

It was a strange request. I thought she was a cripple, so I said, “Sure.”

When I went to the door, she opened it, and I saw that she was not handicapped. I looked rather amazed and she noticed it. She said, “You see, I’m a Jew, and it is a sin for us to switch the light because it is kindling a fire.”

She didn’t know who I was, so I thought, “Here I will have some fun.” So I said to her, “But the law says even the stranger within your gates should not work.” She was shocked that I knew the fourth commandment.

“How did you know it?”

“Well,” I said, “I read my Bible.”

Her response was, “Yes, but you are a Gentile.” In other words, she was implying, “You are lost in any case. It doesn’t matter if you break the Sabbath.”

I asked, “Do you have your Old Testament?”

She replied, “Yes.”

“Can you turn to 1 Sam. 16:7?”

She said, “Yes.” Do you know what the text says?

Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.

I said, “Sister, I would be more than happy to switch your light on, but here is the problem. While my hand does the act, I’m doing your will and, as far as God is concerned, you turned the light on and if that’s sin, you are finished.”

“You are making it very hard.”

I said, “No, I’ll go one step further. It is not hard, but impossible. There’s only one way for you to be saved and that is to accept the Messiah, Jesus Christ.”

She said, “I was born a Jew and I will die a Jew.”

I said, “Sister, you don’t have to become a Gentile. Christ was a Jew Himself. But accept Him as your Saviour, your Messiah, your Anointed One.”

She said, “No.”

“That is your problem,” I said. “But if you’re trying to go to heaven by your works, you are trying the impossible. I hope you will discover that some day.” I switched the light on and left her.

I gave you this illustration because of verse ten:

For he that is entered into his rest [God’s rest], he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His.

Why? Because the rest that God gives you is complete and perfect. You can’t add to it. You can’t improve on it. It’s complete and perfect! That’s what the text is saying. And the moment you try to improve on it you are rejecting it. [Jack S.]

[Robert]

More good reading:

Today, there are many sincere Christians who are keeping the wrong day for the right reason. Do you know that? We have made the Sunday/Sabbath issue an issue between Sunday-keeping Christians and Sabbath-keeping Christians. That’s not the issue. The issue is between the church which is the body of Christ and the world which is under Satan. But today there is confusion. There are many millions of Christians who are keeping the wrong day but for the right reason. They are resting in God’s provision in Jesus Christ, but they are keeping the wrong day. They don’t realize it.

Likewise, others, equally sincere, are keeping the right day for the wrong reason. Many are keeping the Sabbath, hoping that it will take them to heaven. Keeping the day won’t take anyone to heaven because nobody keeps the Sabbath so strictly as the Jews. They are very meticulous. I’m talking of the orthodox Jew. But before the end comes the true gospel of righteousness by faith will be restored and preached for a witness. In other words, when the true gospel is preached in all its clarity there will be no more confusion. Then every person, Christian and non-Christian, will have to make a choice between life and death, between God and Satan, between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of this world. There will be no confusion then. That’s the direction we need to point in. We need to lay the foundation because when the issue comes, Sister [Ellen G.] White says in Great Controversy that the arguments have already been presented but now they see it, and they take their stand. Thousands will join the Sabbath-keepers because they were sincere in resting in Christ although keeping the wrong day. And thousands who belong to the right day will join the other camp because they were keeping it for the wrong reason. So there is going to be an exchange and we know that it is going to come.

So the fundamental issue is between righteousness by faith and righteousness by works. I have some very strong statements from the Spirit of Prophecy but I would like to remind you of a statement I have in the back of my Bible which is dealing indirectly with this issue. We are told that, “When the end comes, only one truth will prevail, one interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other—Christ Our Righteousness.” Review and Herald Extra, 23 December 1890.

When that happens, every human being will have to take a stand. At that time, the Sabbath will point to resting in God and Sunday will be pointing to resting in man. It is not the Sunday-keeping Christians who will make the Sunday law. It is the world who will make the Sunday law. It is true that apostate Christianity will give them all the encouragement but it is the world that will make the decision. They will say that Sunday has to be kept. When this happens the two concepts of salvation will polarize and will be in conflict again like it was in the New Testament. At that time, the Sabbath will become the seal of God or righteousness by faith in contradiction to Sunday which is the mark of the beast. The beast is simply an agent for the dragon, who is Satan. Satan gives power to the beast. So the real boss of the world is Satan. The great controversy will come into focus in a final conflict between these two groups. [Jack]

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN 3:17--Before the death of Christ, is there any mention of a change in the purpose of the Sabbath or in the day on which the Sabbath is to be kept?

Let me ask a few questions to make sure I understand what you are saying.

By "true meaning for observing the Sabbath," I take it that you mean "the only true reason under the New Covenant for observing the seventh day Sabbath." Am I right in that assumption?

Besides that phrase, I found everything clear here. Again, however, I don't believe it has been shown that the only reason for Sabbath keeping is limited to, or has been changed by, what's given in Hebrews 4.

Quote:

Hebrews 4:9 simply says that the weekly Sabbath is a reminder or pointer to the sabbath [rest] that still awaits God's people.

Quote:

That's so out of blooming context I can't believe you even said that. I'll take you on here because I can easily disprove such nonsense.

Don't tell me...I guess you are now going to quote from some manuscript that I don't have laying around the house to prove your point. Please.... Rob

There are three "rests" that Hebrews 4 speaks of: 1) The rest of God on the seventh day when He completed the creation (Gen. 2: 1-3); 2) the "rest" that the children of Israel could have experienced when they were led out of Egypt, freed from slavery, but then failed to enter into due to disobedience and disbelief; and 3) the rest in Jesus, in which we transfer trust from our work to Christ.

All of these "rests" prefigure the believers ultimate rest in heaven and the new earth after the second coming. The Sabbath rest, then, points to the final Sabbath celebration awaiting the people of God in the future.

Hebrews 3: 1 shows that the writer is addressing those with a "heavenly calling," and Hebrews 4: 3-5 tells us that the land of Canaan did not fulfill the promise of God's rest. The Patriarchs' hope was fixed on a better, heavenly country (Heb. 11: 16; cf. 9: 15; 7: 11; 8:7). The rest we have in Jesus on this earth does not totally fulfill the plan of God for His people to find the ultimate rest. It will only be fulfilled on the earth made new. Thus the rest of God that has existed from the seventh day of creation will not be fully experienced until Christ returns for His people and takes them to the heavenly Canaan, which will be our final deliverance from suffering, testing, and effort (v. 11).

[Robert]

All of these "rests" prefigure the believers ultimate rest in heaven and the new earth after the second coming. The Sabbath rest, then, points to the final Sabbath celebration awaiting the people of God in in the future.

Let's test your theory:

There remains therefore a final Sabbath celebration in the new earth for the Jews. For the Jew who has entered this final Sabbath celebration in the new earth has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

Do you know why this is a bunch of baloney? Because I don't care how well the Jew keeps the Sabbath, unless he accepts Christ there'll be no final Sabbath celebration for him.

Your interpretation deserves an F minus.

Rob

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

Show me, using the law, where it links God's redemptive act "in Christ" to the law [see Hebrews 4]. It just isn't there!

"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."

Sorry, that's not the 4th command.

Quote:

...."Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy....FOR/BECAUSE in 6 days the LORD made... Ex 20:2, 8,11 NKJ. THAT'S DELIVERANCE!!! THAT'S REDEMPTION!!! Connected to the law!

No, that's just creation. How did you become a doctor? I'm glad you retired!

Quote:

"Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a PERPETUAL covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel FOREVER; for in 6 days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the 7th day He rested and was refreshed." Ex 31:13-18 NKJ. Gerry

Everlasting covenant with who? The children of Israel. Of course they failed at that covenant and it was made void.

See what I'm hearing is that you are willing to follow the part that says "Obey and live" - but you kind of forget the 2nd part: "Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death." So if you demand the 1st part you must also, with equal enthusiasm, demand the 2nd part.

My point? If you are going to demand Sabbath keeping, according to the context, you must also be willing to be put to death when you screw up. (I'll throw the stone for free) That's the context - That's the old covenant.

If you are trying to exclude yourself from Sabbath-keeping because the covenant was made with Israel, then are we to presume that the other 9 commandments do no apply to Gentiles either? Furthermore, by your reasoning, Gentiles are also then excluded from the blessings of the New Covenant because that covenant is also made with the "house of Israel and with the house of Judah" Heb 8:8 NKJ.

But Paul, whom you claim to understand pretty well, already declared that "...they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham....That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed." Rom 9:6-9 NKJ.

"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him." Rom 10:12.

Furthermore, "For he is not a Jew who is one inwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly..." Rom 2:28,29 NKJ.

If those practicing "adultery, fornication...lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred,....selfish ambitions, ...heresies,...murders,.. ..and the like...will not inherit the kingdom of God," Gal 5:19-21, I believe that it is also reasonable to assume that those who knowingly persist in flouting the 4th commandment will also receive the same judgment.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Gerry ... those we are NOT saved are judged by their works. The saved are judged by the works of Jesus.

For WE must ALL appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that EACH one may receive what is due him for the things DONE while in the body, whether good or bad." 2 Cor 5:10 NIV

"Since you call on a Father [sounds like believers to me] who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear." 1 Pe 1:17 NIV

"I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve." Jer 17:10 NIV

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

1) At what historical point did the 4th commandment become meaningless?

2) What is in the ark of the covenant in heaven that John saw?

3) The Bible and Ellen White both say that the law of God is eternal as God Himself is eternal. That includes the Sabbath commandment.

The law didn't exist before the fall. The was was given to expose sin....It wasn't complete...it was only a brief summary of righteousness. Jesus expanded upon the law when He was on earth. Why did He do that? The law is much more than 10 brief rules....It is spiritual. Nevertheless, the law can be broken down into one phrase: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Again, no self-love...only agape love!

If there was no law before the fall, what was Lucifer guilty of?

How can you quote, "Love your neighbor as yourself" and then conclude "no self-love?" Per your reasoning, if there is no love for self whatsoever, then there is no love for a neighbor either!!! You can't give what you don't have!!!

Gerry

[Gerr]

When we make Sabbath keeping a requirement for salvation, we are not really entering into God’s rest, which points to a perfect and finished salvation, but have turned His Sabbath into salvation by works, the very opposite of what the Sabbath was intended for. And since by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight, such Sabbath keeping becomes meaningless. [Jack S.]

Just WHO is making Sabbath-keeping a REQUIREMENT for salvation? Does God require cessation from idolatry, murder, adultery, etc. a requirement for salvation? Can you keep on breaking the other 9c and be saved?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

My question is, when did the 4th commandment become meaningless? For instance, was it meaningful in Christ's time?

As connected to the gospel, yes! See Hebrews 4

Quote:

Also, what is in the ark of the covenant that John saw in heaven (Rev. 11: 19)?

I could care less....It's all supposition!

All supposition?

"And they shall make an ark....And you shall put into the ark the Testimony which I will give you." Ex 25:10,16.

Yep, the 10c are right there in the most holy place in the whole universe to serve as a testimony against all lawbreakers.

Gerry