'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Like your obsession to push the law on folks?

The reason I give you more is so you'll shut up with your legalism and self-righteousness, but you don't so I keep reminding you that you are still selfish and therefore you have no business pushing law. [/quote']

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." Jesus.

Was He pushing the law out or in?

Gerry

Turn to Matthew 7:21...:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

Have you ever asked yourself what Jesus meant by that? What is the will of the Father? I’m not going to give you any text but I’m going to give you the statement. I want you to look for the text to see whether I am telling the truth or if I am lying. You will discover that the will of the Father as taught by Jesus Christ and in the New Testament is that you believe on His Son Jesus Christ. Look for the texts. There’ll be more than one.

Let’s go back to Matthew 7:22:

Many will say to me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?”

These are not ordinary members; these are people who had offices in the church; these are people who were active in the church. Verse 23:

Then I will tell them plainly, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!”

Then, after this statement, in Matthew 7 follows the parable of the two men who built houses, one on the rock and one on sand. Remember, the rock stands for Jesus Christ. Let’s go back because now we have a problem. Both the passages, the one in Matthew 7 and the one in Luke 13, make this statement, “Away from me, you evildoers!” Jesus was very careful in choosing His words. There are 12 words in the Hebrew language for sin and He chooses one specific word here: iniquity. What does that word mean?

When you read those words, “Away from me, you evildoers [you who do iniquity]!” was Jesus saying, “Yes, I know you prophesied in My name and you did many good thing in My name but your iniquity was more than your good works, therefore, you are weighed in the balances and you are found guilty and therefore you are lost.”? Is this what He is saying? The answer is, “No.” The context, the grammar will not allow such an interpretation. What He is saying is the good works they were doing was iniquity. The only way for you to understand that is to look at the word and see whether the Bible teaches what I am saying.

I read in Isaiah 53:6:

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned [bent] to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

That “bentness” disqualifies us for heaven. There will be no selfishness in heaven and our nature is bent towards self. But what is Jesus referring to when He says, in this context of our parable, “Away from me, you evildoers [you workers of iniquity].”?

I believe, and it’s very clear from the passage and the context, that He is referring to self-righteousness. Do you know that self-righteousness is iniquity? It is not because the acts are bad but because the acts are polluted with self. Everything that man does apart from grace is polluted with self because the essence of our fallen nature is self. Turn to Isaiah 64:6. Look at this text very carefully:

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags [iniquity]...

So Isaiah equates our righteousness with filthy rags. [Jack]

Conclusion: Jesus is referring to the self-righteous in Matt 7:21

[Robert]

The only reason you know about keeping the Seventh-day Sabbath is because God revealed it in His law.

You are so very wrong! I know of it because of the account in Genesis and Hebrews. I don't tie it to the law....It's tied to the gospel. Legalists connect it to the law because that's all they know....Law, law, law....

[Robert]

When Paul talks to the Athenians and to others in the NT, he quotes from the those parts of the law of God, the Sabbath commandment, which direct our attention to God as the Creator.

Be true to the context. Paul is not discussing the Sabbath. Read it again and again. You link it because you are much like the Judaizers who pushed circumcision. You and they have similarities.

[Robert]

Notice what Jack has said here. The gospel returns to us the Sabbath rest. The gospel then does not contradict the Sabbath rest as a celebration and reminder of God as the Creator.

No, here's what Jack said: "Remember, the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath. What restored it? The redemptive work of Christ."

Jack correctly states that the Sabbath of creation was ruined by the fall. Why? Because no longer does the Sabbath symbolize a perfect and sinless creation. That's the context. In the Genesis account the link to the Sabbath is not for a reminder of God as the creator. That's the stuff of fiction! You are adding!

[Robert]

Then why do we NEED to keep the seventh day Sabbath? Because it is a weekly reminder of who God is, that He is both our Creator and Redeemer.

[John317]

... Now look at verse 10:

For he that is entered into His rest he also has ceased from his own works as God did from His.

When you believe the gospel, you cease from your works just like God ceased from His works. The redemption that Christ did here was perfectbut was it finished? Please look at Rom. 5:11:

We rejoice because we have already received the atonement.

The word “atonement” is synonymous with “reconciled.” We have been reconciled by the death of His Son. How much contribution did we make to this redemptive work in Christ? None. Was Christ’s work perfect? Yes. Was it finished? Yes. Can you add to it? No. Can you improve on it? No. So when you enter His rest, please don’t try to improve your standing before God by your own works.

This is vintage Jack Sequeira.

I get the impression sometimes that you think Jack means we should be careful not to try and obey God's commandments. But of course that is NOT what Jack is saying at all.

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Heb. 4 is not dealing with works in terms of the fruits of salvation but in terms of the means of salvation.

I agree that it is not dealing with works as a means of salvation, but that should not be interpreted to mean that Heb. 4 is not talking about the importance of obedience. Look closely at last verse of the previous chapter, Hebrews 3: 19, also compare it with Hebrews 4: 6, 11, where obedience is a key thought. The people of Israel could not enter into God's rest because of disbelief and disobedience. They rebelled against God's law, against God's prophet, and of course, against God Himself. Whether they realize it or not, people are doing the same when they refuse to obey God's law today, which includes a refusal to obey the Sabbath.

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Can you add to the righteousness you receive in Christ? No. Can you improve on it? No. What happens if you do? Read the book of Galatians and especially chapter 3:3:

You began well in the Spirit but now you are trying to become perfect in the flesh.

Look at Gal. 5:4:

Those of you who are trying to become righteous by the law have fallen from grace.

Notice Jack says, "trying to become righteous by the law." What is this? It is trying by your works of the law to earn righteousness or to earn justification with God. (Remember that the works of the law and works of faith, or works out of faith, are two entirely different things. What kind of works did Jesus do? Didn't he do works of faith? Yes, certainly. Was Jesus saved by works of the law? No. Yet the Bible says that Jesus kept God commandments, and it says His followers will also keep God's commandments JUST AS HE DID. How, then, did He do it? Wasn't it because, or out of, His faith in the Father? Of course it was.)

Again, Jack is not saying we should not read God's law and ask God to empower us to obey God's will as revealed there and in Christ. Christ is God's law in action.

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Please do not try to add to the righteousness you receive in Christ. It is perfect and it is finished. Therefore, he who has entered into God’s rest will cease from works of redeeming himself, just like Christ ceased from His works. Why did Christ cease from doing His part? Because it was complete. Heb.9:28:

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many and unto them that look for Him [those who look for Him are those who enter into God’s rest] shall He appear the second time without sin.

Yes, I agree, of course, that Christ sacrifice was complete. He will never have to do that again. It was done once for all time, never to be repeated, whether in the Mass or in any other way.

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What does Paul mean by “without sin?” He will not come a second time to give the world a second chance. He will not come the second time to finish the work that He left undone. He has already dealt with the sin problem.

The shedding of His blood was done and final. But it is a terrible mistake to interpret that final and complete sacrifice to mean that Jesus had no more to do to deal with the sin problem. As the High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary, Jesus Christ is still "dealing with the sin problem." It is a different phase of the work, yet it is just as necessary for our salvation as His sacrifice on the cross.

What if the slaying of the lamb was all that was done in the sanctuary service or in the Old Testament sacrifices? That alone obviously would not have accurately represented the work of Christ. Similarly, there is much more involved in the work of Christ for our salvation than shedding His blood on the cross.

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When He comes the second time He will come to give the reality of that work which is salvation. So He will not come the second time to deal with the sin problem.

That is true. At His Second Coming, the only left left to do with the sin problem is the execute the judgment and destroy sin and those who have have made up their minds to continue being disloyal to Christ.

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He has done that by one sacrifice. He has sanctified forever those who are being sanctified. Heb.10:14. This work is finished.

As long as we understand that the Bible uses the term "sanctified" in two different ways: we are sanctified once for all, and then there is the process of sanctification by which the Holy Spirit applies to our actual lives the righteousness that God has given to us as a gift when were accounted righteous by faith through His grace.

Once we accept Christ by faith, God separates us from the world of sin to serve Him. But then as we grow in Christ and learn more of what God's will is for our lives, we put more and more of His truth into practice. This is the process of sanctification, whereby we become more and more like Jesus. We love more, because of Jesus in our lives. We yearn more to obey God, because of Jesus in our lives. And for the same reason, we stop sinning when sins are brought to our attention. It's all because of Jesus. All the glory, therefore, rightly goes to Him.

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This is what gives me peace and assurance. So the Sabbath becomes a delight. I delight in the Sabbath because I can face the realities of life with assurance because I know in whom I believe. Christ is my righteousness! If you try to add to this

Jack is clearly saying here that we should not try to add to Christ's righteousness, and I completely agree with him. Christ has His unique work to do for our salvation, and we cannot possibly add to that work. But we also have a work to do, and it also is necessary if we would be saved in God's Kingdom. It is not adding anything to Christ's righteousness. What is that we must do? It is to accept Christ as our Savior and Master. It is to continue to believe and put our entire reliance in Him.

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which the devil wants to do, that moment you are fallen from grace and you have no right to keep the Sabbath.

The Bible does not put it this way. He made the Sabbath to benefit all mankind, even those who do not put faith in Christ. Therefore it is untrue to say that no one has a right to keep the Sabbath if they are not properly trusting Christ.

What the Bible does teach, however, is that if we don't have true faith in Christ, we cannot possibly truly keep the Sabbath. If that is Jack's meaning, then I completely agree with him. I have a feeling that is what he meant to say.

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Those who keep the Sabbath are those who have entered into His rest. His rest points to a perfect and finished work.

I agree that it does point to the future, but it also reminds us of what God has already accomplished in the original creation and in saving us through the death of His Son. Indeed, the Sabbath is a perfect time for celebrating and remembering all of God's gracious acts in the history of redemption.

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So please let us not give the Sabbath a legalistic meaning.

If he means we should not study God's law to find out what God's will is as regards the keeping of the Sabbath, then Jack Sequeira is plainly wrong. Both Jesus and the apostles John and Paul teach that we should read God's law to find out what God's will is.

Something is "legalistic" in the true sense of that word, if we are doing something because we believe it is will earn us merit with God or put us right with God.

So, when we teach the Sabbath, we need to be careful not to give people the impression that anyone can be saved through keeping it.

But the Sabbath is no different in that way than any of the other commandments of God. WE don't earn salvation or become right with God by not stealing or by not committing any other sin. To teach obedience to God by giving the impression that we somehow add to Christ's righteousness is to put obedience to God in a legalistic light.

That would be like the children of Israel believing that they would have to obey the law of God in order to be saved from Egyptian slavery. That was not true. Rather God saved them in order for them to be able to obey His law and His Sabbath.

But notice that even though they were saved out of Egypt before they obeyed God's law, yet they were not able to enjoy the full salvation God had planned for them, because of their refusal to obey Him.

That can confuse people if they're not careful. People can be justified through faith, yet they will not be found at last in the Promised Land if they choose to continue in disloyalty and disobedience. Leaving Egypt is no guarantee of arriving in the Promised Land. To many people, sadly, that will come as a great and terrible surprise.

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Let us give it a gospel meaning and the world will see that the Sabbath is vitally connected with the gospel.

Amen!

And to do that it is also necessary to show people from God's Word that God's moral law, including the Sabbath commandment, is still the standard of Christian living today. WE STILL NEED TO KEEP THE SABBATH. And Sunday is NOT, or ever can be, THE Sabbath. Sunday is a human day of rest, but it can never be the Sabbath of the Lord our God.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The only reason you know about keeping the Seventh-day Sabbath is because God revealed it in His law.

You are so very wrong! I know of it because of the account in Genesis and Hebrews. I don't tie it to the law....It's tied to the gospel. Legalists connect it to the law because that's all they know....Law, law, law....

The point is, that you only know to keep the Sabbath because God revealed it as His will for you to keep it. He says He wants you and me to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy. That is part of God's law.

Genesis is part of the Torah. Torah, of course, means law. Hebrews refers back to the Torah. Without the Torah there would have been no book of Hebrews.

So I say again, we only know to keep the Seventh-day Sabbath because God told humans to keep it. You don't keep it for any other reason. He could have chosen any other day of the week, but the fact is, of course, God freely chose the Seventh day as the day to tell us to keep. Similarly God freely chose which tree he didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from. It had nothing whatever to do with their agreement or with their understanding of God's order. Neither does the keeping of the Sabbath. God simply commands. he doesn't always tell us why He commands. The Bible doesn't contain very many explanations of why God gave the commandments. He doesn't say, "Let me know if you agree" or "if you think it makes sense, then obey me."

Why is that important, Robert? Because if obeying God is a question of whether we agree with Him first, we are only doing what we want or what we think is good-- and that is not true obedience. THAT IS DOING WHAT I THINK IS BEST AND WHAT I WANT TO DO. I AM THEN SUBSTITUTING MYSELF AND MY WILL FOR GOD'S WILL. IN THAT CASE, I AM NOT DOING IT BECAUSE IT IS GOD'S WILL. I AM DOING IT BECAUSE IT IS MY WILL, NOT GOD'S.

Let us suppose I tell--i.e., command-- my fifteen year old daughter, "Go to the store and buy me such-and-such." Am I asking her to sit down for a few minutes first and think it over and decide whether she thinks my command is reasonable?

What if she doesn't learn to obey simply because she is told to do something? She could get killed while thinking over whether she wants to obey, couldn't she? That is the same with human beings. Untold millions will die because they don't agree with God or because they don't think God's commands and instructions make sense.

Come to think of it, Eve died for that same reason, didn't she?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Notice what Jack has said here. The gospel returns to us the Sabbath rest. The gospel then does not contradict the Sabbath rest as a celebration and reminder of God as the Creator.

No, here's what Jack said: "Remember, the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath. What restored it? The redemptive work of Christ."

Jack correctly states that the Sabbath of creation was ruined by the fall. Why? Because no longer does the Sabbath symbolize a perfect and sinless creation. That's the context. In the Genesis account the link to the Sabbath is not for a reminder of God as the creator. That's the stuff of fiction! You are adding!

What reason did God give the children of Israel that they were to keep the Sabbath holy? Read Exodus 20: 11: "FOR, or BECAUSE, in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth... and rested the seventh day...." So God reminded the Israelites to be sure to keep the weekly Sabbath, and the reason He gave them this command and told them to remember to do it, was that He had made the world.

That proves right there that the Sabbath is meant to remind us that God is our Creator. The Sabbath serves other purposes, but that is certainly one of them.

Have you studied Ellen White comments on this subject lately? She clearly, like the Bible, connects the Sabbath with the fact that God created us. Of course, she also-- again, like the Scriptures-- connects the Sabbath with redemption and salvation. But as I said before, they both go together.

I don't understand how you can't see this, except that you seem to be under Jack Sequeira's influece. But I believe in this instance, you are misunderstanding Jack. I am sure that if you could sit down with Jack for a short time, you would find he does not disagree with what I am saying or with what Ellen White teaches on this subject.

[John317]

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John317-- Then why do we NEED to keep the seventh day Sabbath? Because it is a weekly reminder of who God is, that He is both our Creator and Redeemer.

Then, in your opinion, what is the reason WE STILL NEED TO KEEP THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH IN 2008?

If I told you I keep Sunday, and that I don't believe I have any obligation or need to keep God's law or the Sabbath, what would you say?

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JOHN 3: 17-- so the Sabbath before Christ returns is a sign of who people choose to obey.

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ROBERT-- This is typical, traditional legalism....I reject it fully!

Please explain to me what your understanding is of the "mark of the beast" in Rev. 14: 9. What is the most terrible warning in the Bible all about? (See Rev. 14: 9-11.)

Doesn't the giving of this message and the messages of Rev. 14: 7-11 result in people keeping the commandments of God as described in 14: 12?

One thing seems very plain, and that is that the messages serve to divide all of humanity into two camps, those who receive the mark of beast and those who receive the seal of God in the forehead. Those who receive God's seal are protected from the seven last plagues that fall just before Christ comes. One small group is ready for Christ to return; the other group, who do not receive the seal of God, are lost. Those who are ready for Christ's return are said to "keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." One of the commandments is the Sabbath commandment, which most of the world does not know or understand. Most of the Christian world know about the other nine commandments.

You appear to be saying you don't believe there is any connection between this "mark" and the Sabbath/Sunday question. Is this true? And if it is true, what do you believe the issue is at the end, if it doesn't have to do with who people choose to be Lord and Master of their lives?

Do you also fully reject the teaching that the command of God for Adam and Eve not to eat of one particular tree in the garden was a sign of who our parents were choosing to obey? Weren't they choosing who they would obey and become their master?

[Robert]

God simply commands. He doesn't always tell us why He commands.

God speaking: "I'm God - do what I say and don't question Me or I'll kill you!"

What's wrong with this picture?

1] Here God is a God of force. He uses coercion.

2] This appeals to fear. Fear based religion is in reality worse than paganism.

3] It's old covenant.

Robert

[Robert]

Please explain to me what your understanding is of the "mark of the beast" in Rev. 14: 9. What is the most terrible warning in the Bible all about? (See Rev. 14: 9-11.)

Read!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Please explain to me what your understanding is of the "mark of the beast" in Rev. 14: 9. What is the most terrible warning in the Bible all about? (See Rev. 14: 9-11.)

Read!

OK, I'll read it, but I have read it before. The best you can do is not give me your understanding personally in your own words, but you seem to me to be saying that you believe whatever Jack is saying.

Of course I don't take Jack's word for anything any more than I do any other preacher. It's not that I don't believe him, but he is subject to study and comparison like anyone else. He is not inspired by God as prophets were/are. And even prophets did not mind having their writings compared with other Scripture.

But thanks. I'll read it and get back with you about it.

I feel like I should be talking with Jack!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." Jesus.

Was He pushing the law out or in?

Gerry [/quote']

Turn to Matthew 7:21...:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

Have you ever asked yourself what Jesus meant by that? What is the will of the Father? I’m not going to give you any text but I’m going to give you the statement. I want you to look for the text to see whether I am telling the truth or if I am lying. You will discover that the will of the Father as taught by Jesus Christ and in the New Testament is that you believe on His Son Jesus Christ. Look for the texts. There’ll be more than one.

Of course, it is the Father's will that all believe. But what does it mean to believe? Read the rest of Mt 7 after verse 21-23. Jesus said:

"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and DOES them, I will liken him to a man who built his house on the rock...

But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and DOES NOT DO THEM, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand..."

"Be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves." Jam 1:21.

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Let’s go back to Matthew 7:22:

Many will say to me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?”

These are not ordinary members; these are people who had offices in the church; these are people who were active in the church. Verse 23:

Then I will tell them plainly, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!”

So, was Jesus criticizing them because they prophesied in His name? Or cast out demons in His name? Or done many wonders in His name? NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! It was because they were EVILDOERS! They "practice lawlessness" NKJ, NASB.

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Then, after this statement, in Matthew 7 follows the parable of the two men who built houses, one on the rock and one on sand. Remember, the rock stands for Jesus Christ. Let’s go back because now we have a problem. Both the passages, the one in Matthew 7 and the one in Luke 13, make this statement, “Away from me, you evildoers!” Jesus was very careful in choosing His words. There are 12 words in the Hebrew language for sin and He chooses one specific word here: iniquity. What does that word mean?

When you read those words, “Away from me, you evildoers [you who do iniquity]!” was Jesus saying, “Yes, I know you prophesied in My name and you did many good thing in My name but your iniquity was more than your good works, therefore, you are weighed in the balances and you are found guilty and therefore you are lost.”? Is this what He is saying? The answer is, “No.” The context, the grammar will not allow such an interpretation. What He is saying is the good works they were doing was iniquity. The only way for you to understand that is to look at the word and see whether the Bible teaches what I am saying.

What a convoluted twisting of Scripture! First of, I looked it up and there is no Hebrew word in the passage under discussion. "Evildoer" or "practice lawlessness" come from 2 Greek words - ergazomai-to work, labor, perform, exercise, to do, and anomia-the condition of without law because of the ignorance of it or violating it; contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness . The verb is in the present tense, an ongoing way of life.

"For we are His workmanship, crfeated in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them: Paul in Eph 2:10 NKJ. Are you saying that God's workmanship is evil? Iniquity? Wickedness? My friend, you better thread carefully!

No, the works of wickedness are these: "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who PRACTICE such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who PRACTICE them." PAUL in Rom 1:28-32 NKJ.

Gerry

[Robert]

I feel like I should be talking with Jack!

eMail: vineyardministries@comcast.net

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

God simply commands. He doesn't always tell us why He commands.

God speaking: "I'm God - do what I say and don't question Me or I'll kill you!"

What's wrong with this picture?

First of all that statement is a lie! It's not found in Scripture! That's what's wrong with your picture!!!

The Bible's version is: "When you eat the fruit, you will die." "The soul who sins shall die." "The wages of sin is death." "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity....he shall die."

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1] Here God is a God of force. He uses coercion.

2] This appeals to fear. Fear based religion is in reality worse than paganism.

3] It's old covenant.

Robert

"The fear of the LORD is the BEGINNING of wisdom." Prov 1:7. Fear is the BEGINNING not the end. A mule may need a 2x4 on the head to get his attention. That's what got Paul's attention on the road to Damascus. But once he got to know Jesus, his fear turned to a love that no flogging, no shipwreck, no imprisonment, or even death could extinguish.

I dare say that this is a common path that most believers go through. Fear --> Faith -->Love.

You may derogatorily call it old covenant, nevertheless, it is God's EVERLASTING covenant.

"For the mountains shall depart

And the hills be removed.

But My kindness shall not depart from you,

Nor shall My COVENANT of peace be removed."

Says the LORD, who has mercy on you." Isa 54:10 NKJ.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

Notice what Jack has said here. The gospel returns to us the Sabbath rest. The gospel then does not contradict the Sabbath rest as a celebration and reminder of God as the Creator.

No, here's what Jack said: "Remember, the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath.

Says who? By whose authority? Where does it say that in Scripture?

Gerry

[Robert]

What a convoluted twisting of Scripture! First of, I looked it up and there is no Hebrew word in the passage under discussion. "Evildoer" or "practice lawlessness" come from 2 Greek words....

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." [KJV]

But its root comes from the Hebrew! No doubt Matthew had his native tongue in mind.

Let's read David: "Behold, I was shapen [formed] in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Definition: to bend, twist, distort [Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon]

By birth David was bent towards himself. He was born in love with himself at the expense of those around him.

When you apply this principle to Matt 7:23 you begin to understand whom Jesus was speaking. Remember their claim:

We have done "many wonderful works".

Listen to Paul before he was converted:

"As to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless." [Phil 3:6]

And Job before his eyes were opened:

"let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless." [Job 31:6]

What was their problem? Were they outwardly doing good things? Yes. Then why was their righteousness as filthy rags?

Because any righteous that we produce is polluted with selfishness. Outwardly we can do the right thing, but inwardly it is for the wrong motive. It might be for the recognition of others. It might be to receive a reward. Kids do it all the time. Outwardly they act good to get some sort of reward.

Hoping to gain heaven by being good is another self-centered motive. All these works have one thing in common: They are fake. They involve pride and boasting. They are not real. They are self-righteous works, which will condemn the legalist in the judgment.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

No' date=' here's what Jack said: "Remember, the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath.[/quote']

Says who? By whose authority? Where does it say that in Scripture?

Gerry

Genesis 2:1!

God rested the Sabbath because His work was complete - it was perfect. After the fall this was no longer true. That's why you see a change when the law is restored after Moses broke the first set of tablets.

I believe God was trying to tell us something and that is no longer did the Sabbath symbolize a perfect creation. Instead the emphasis for the Jews became one of deliverance from Egyptian bondage or a perfect redemption. See Deut 5:15

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

God speaking: "I'm God - do what I say and don't question Me or I'll kill you!"

What's wrong with this picture?

First of all that statement is a lie! It's not found in Scripture!

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Says who? By whose authority? Where does it say that in Scripture?

Gerry [/quote']

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Genesis 2:1!

God rested the Sabbath because His work was complete - it was perfect. After the fall this was no longer true. That's why you see a change when the law is restored after Moses broke the first set of tablets.

I believe God was trying to tell us something and that is no longer did the Sabbath symbolize a perfect creation. Instead the emphasis for the Jews became one of deliverance from Egyptian bondage or a perfect redemption. See Deut 5:15

I appreciate so much of your good insights Robert ... but this one I am having difficulty following. How could it no longer symbolize a perfect creation. It was perfect. The fact that it no longer is would seem all the more need to have the symbolism. Please. Help me on this.

[Robert]

How could it [the Sabbath] no longer symbolize a perfect creation. It was perfect. The fact that it no longer is would seem all the more need to have the symbolism. Please. Help me on this."

Let's start with Genesis 1:26

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.....31 And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 And by the seventh day God completed His work which He had done; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it [set it apart], because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made."

Take notes of a few points:

1] Adam and Eve were made in the likeness and image of God. This does not mean that they were gods. It means that they perfectly reflected the self-emptying agape love of their creator.

2] Note also that God gave them dominion to rule over the earth. God made the earth for mankind.

3] On the 7th day God rested from His perfect & complete work. The question is why? Was He tired? No, God doesn't get tired. So why rest if you are not tired?

Genesis is very clear that God rested once and for all. Why? His work was complete - His work was finished - His work was sinless. God couldn't make it more perfect!

Now what happened after the fall?

Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day [i.e, the 6th day] when they were created. 3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth.

Here Moses compares Adam before and after the fall. Before Adam was made in God's likeness, but after the fall Adam has a son, not in the image of God, but after "his own likeness." No longer was the human race in the likeness and image of God.

1] No longer were Adam and Eve in the likeness of their creator. Instead of reflecting God's agape, they reflected selfishness and self-love.

2] Satan became "the lord of this world". He took dominion from Adam and Eve.

3] The 7th day Sabbath of creation no longer pointed to a perfect creation.

Now let's go years down the road to the giving of the law on Mount Sinai. Under law the children of Israel were given a specific command. Here it is:

Ex 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, [Why...what is the reason not to work on the 7th day?] 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy [sanctified it - set it apart]."

Okay now ask yourself - "self, why were the children of Israel commanded to rest on the 7th day?" The answer? Because God rested!

Again, why did God rest? His work was complete - His work was finished - His work was sinless. God couldn't make it more perfect!

Why would God command Israel to acknowledge something that wasn't true - that was past tense?

You see if I am to rest on the 7th day as an acknowledgment that God's work is perfect, complete and sinless my resting would be a contradiction because it just ain't so! Our world was ruined by the fall. Mankind is born selfish and egocentric. We are born dying. This isn't the picture of perfection. So again for me to rest doesn't point to reality.

Now let's jump up to Exodus 32:19 "When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain."

Now jump to Exodus 34:1 The LORD said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke."

Remember that on the original tablets the reason for resting the 7th day was because God rested from His perfect & sinless creation. Now let's look at the 2nd tablets. I find a small, but significant change:

Deut. 5:13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work [why?] 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm.

Notice that reason for rest changed. Before it was because it symbolized God's perfect creation, but creation was ruined by the fall. Yes, the Sabbath didn't change, but the reason for resting on it did. Now it was a sign of redemption.

Now here's the problem: I am not a Jew. My ancestors were not saved from Egyptian bondage. The Sabbath, as recorded in the law given to Israel, has no special significance to me. So under the NC I find no reason, as recorded in the law, for Sabbath observance.

Robert

[Gerr]

That's convoluted human reasoning for you. There was NO change in the symbolizm. What followed after the genesis creation is an expansion of the significance of a day God had already created and set apart and blessed from any other day of the week.

If the Sabbath had ceased to be a reminder of God's perfect creation, then why did God command it as such in Ex 20 which was already AFTER 2000 some yrs of sin?

The Sabbath's symbolism of redemption is not just found in Dt 5. Its dual symbolism of creation and redemption were already present in Ex 20. Notice that the preamble to the covenant in Ex 20 begins thus in verse 2:

"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." That's redemption! And if you don't believe it, read also EXODUS 31:12-17 where God said:

"Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a PERPETUAL covenant. IT IS A SIGN BETWEEN ME AND THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL FOREVER; FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, AND ON THE SEVENTH DAY HE RESTED AND WAS REFRESHED." NKJ

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

Now here's the problem: I am not a Jew. My ancestors were not saved from Egyptian bondage. The Sabbath, as recorded in the law given to Israel, has no special significance to me. So under the NC I find no reason, as recorded in the law, for Sabbath observance.

Robert

That's a man-made problem by those who refuse to acknowledge the Sabbath as God gave and commanded it to be kept.

"And in you [Abraham] all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Gen 12:3 NKJ

"And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal 3:29 NKJ

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter whose praise is not from men but from God." Rom 2:28,29 NKJ.

While you were not literally delivered from Egyptian bondage, neither are the Jews of today. So, should the Jews of today therefore disregard it because they were not literally delivered from Egyptian bondage? But you, and all believing Gentiles and believing Jews, are all delivered from the bondage of sin which the Egyptian bondage symbolizes also.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

First of all that statement is a lie! It's not found in Scripture!

Deut 28:1 “Now it shall be' date=' if you will diligently obey the Lord your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. .... 15 “But it shall come about, if you will not obey the Lord your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes with which I charge you today, that all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you. ...20 “The Lord will send upon you curses, confusion, and rebuke, in all you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken Me. 21 “The Lord will make the pestilence cling to you until He has consumed you from the land, where you are entering to possess it. 22 “The Lord will smite you with consumption and with fever and with inflammation and with fiery heat and with the sword and with blight and with mildew, and they shall pursue you until you perish.

Quote:

"The fear of the LORD is the BEGINNING of wisdom." Prov 1:7. Fear is the BEGINNING not the end. A mule may need a 2x4 on the head to get his attention. Gerry

"It is not the fear of punishment, or the hope of everlasting reward, that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him. They behold the Saviour's matchless love [agape'], revealed throughout His pilgrimage on earth, from the manger of Bethlehem to Calvary's cross, and the sight of Him attracts, it softens and subdues the soul. Love awakens in the heart of the beholders. They hear His voice, and they follow Him." [LHU 204]

"To engage in his service merely from hope of reward or fear of punishment would avail nothing [i.e, it's worthless]. Open apostasy would not be more offensive to God than hypocrisy and mere formal worship." [PP 523]

Like I said, the believer's journey to God, the path of Christian growth most often begins with fear in the scared sense of the word. And why not? If you found out that you are under judgment and condemned to burn in hell, would you not have fear? But then you are also told that there is ONE who already took that sentence upon Himself and died for you and you believe it in your inmost soul, that's faith. Then you begin to know more about this Person and you become totally in love with this Person so that you wouldn't want to do anything that would shame Him, even willing to give up your life for Him, that's love.

Quote:

You see Gerry, we are worlds apart.

That would be an understatement!!!

Quote:

You are old covenant, I am new covenant.

Words are cheap. What have you been teaching about the law and obedience? A new covenant believer has the law written in his heart and OBEYS it from the heart, not to get brownie points, but as a loving response to the One who gave His life for him. You claim that owning anything is selfishness, and selfishness is sin. Yet when asked why you haven't sold all your possessions yet, you claimed you are not under law. So, you impose the law of unselfishness to those who disagree with you, but is free to practice the sin of selfishness by keeping your goodies?

Quote:

You believe in hitting folks with a 2 x 4...you believe in putting the fear of God in folks and I believe agape changes folks. You teach legalism - you pound folks in the head with the law, the law, the law and I teach grace.

Who once said, "I give you law!!!???" Who teaches legalism? In order to be considered an obedient commandment keeper, what do you impose on the believer? SELL ALL YOU HAVE!!! So who is hitting people over the head with a 2x4? And you call that grace? Agape?

Gerry

[John317]

...Remember that on the original tablets the reason for resting the 7th day was because God rested from His perfect & sinless creation. Now let's look at the 2nd tablets. I find a small, but significant change:

Deut. 5:13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work [why?] 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm.

Notice that reason for rest changed. Before it was because it symbolized God's perfect creation, but creation was ruined by the fall. Yes, the Sabbath didn't change, but the reason for resting on it did. Now it was a sign of redemption...

Robert, we've already talked about this, and you should know that your point about Deut. 5:13 is completely invalid. There was no change in the meaning of the Sabbath at all. The fact is that the Dead Sea Scrolls text of Deut.-- which predate by at least 1,000 years the text used in our modern Bibles-- reads as follows,

v. 15. "You shall remember that you were a servant in the Land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. THEREFORE, THE LORD YOUR GOD COMMANDED YOU TO KEEP THE SABBATH DAY TO HALLOW IT. FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY; SO THE LORD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY AND HALLOWED IT."

You get buy The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, The Oldest Known Bible Translated for the First Time Into English, at Barnes and Nobles Book Store, published by Harper, San Francisco.

You can see, then, that there was no change in the meaning of the Sabbath, but rather the Sabbath had added meaning to Israel because of the fact that they had been slaves in Egypt and God had redeemed them from slavery. But the Sabbath in Deut. 5:13 still points to God as the Creator of the world.