'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Would you please explain to me how keeping the Sabbath as commanded in the 4th commandment is legalism while keeping the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or the 7th & 10th is not? Or do you consider keeping any of the other 9 legalistic?

Gerry [/quote']I've been over this many times. Go back and read it.

No, you have ignored the question. If you had answered it, then let's hear it again.

Gerry

[Robert]

.... then let's hear it again. Gerry

Because the Sabbath from the law no longer points to a perfect creation after the fall.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

ROBERT--... you don't need to have a Bible or a church to be convicted and saved. Case in point Romans 2:14-16.[/quote']

Romans 2: 14-16 isn't teaching that people will be saved by works, is it?

No...the fruit of Spirit is seen in the lives of these Gentiles who had no knowledge of the Torah (the Old Testament). In their lives were seen the principle found in the last six commandments. Hence the law was written in their hearts. Again that's why Paul states, "THE WHOLE LAW" can be summed in one phrase: "Love your neighbor as yourself".

You have another group of Gentiles who rejected God. They also didn't have the Torah. Let's read about them:

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

[Robert]

What is verse 13 teaching? Is he saying that those who practice the law will be recognized as righteous?

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

If you want to be saved by the law, it is not enough to say, “I know the law.” It is not enough to say, “I have the law in its explicit form.” You have to perform that law. You have to do it in every detail. Paul repeats the same thing when he discusses the Jews in chapter 10 of Romans. In Chapter 10, verse 5, he says:

Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: “The man who does these things will live by them.”

In other words, the law comes to you and says, “If you want to live, you must obey me.” A knowledge of the truth, a knowledge of the law, does not save anybody.

But the Jews had this tragedy. The tragedy was they thought that because they possessed this law that they were better than the Gentiles. They would look at the Gentiles and they would say, “Well, these Gentiles, they do not know the law of God. They don’t even know the true God. We have that truth. They are outside the covenant of God; they are dogs. They are hopelessly lost. We have the truth.” This is how they boasted. Look at verse 17-20:

Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law [that is, your knowledge of the law] and brag about your relationship to God; if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, becaue you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth....

But Paul says in verses 21-23:

...You, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?

He ends up by saying in verse 24 a quotation from Ezekiel 36:22:

As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

It is not enough to say that we have the truth. The question is, has the truth set you free? It is no use boasting about your knowledge of the truth of the law of God because Paul is saying that, while you are boasting, you are doing the same thing as the Gentiles.

Now, they may not be doing things openly. You know, a legalist tends to do things underhandedly. I want to tell you a little experience. The other day I was at the supermarket and I said to myself, “Thanksgiving is approaching and it’s about time I bought my dog a nice, juicy bone.” So I went to the meat section and I looked around to see if there were any Adventists. I got a nice, juicy bone and I held it under my arm and I went to the counter and a few days later one of the members of the church came up to me and said, “What were you doing with that bone under your arm?”

We human beings are, by nature, legalists. We want to hide. These Jews openly they were not doing things. They were very holy people, because I read Matthew 23:5:

Everything they do is done for men to see.

But all the things they did were to show other people how good they were, but inside they were full of rotten bones, and I don’t mean dog bones either. Matthew 23:27-28:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

It is simply not enough to know the truth. The fact that God has given us extra light doesn’t make us better.

Problem #2: The Jews felt that keeping the law to the best of their ability or keeping the majority of the law was sufficient. They failed to see what James says in chapter 2, verse 10:

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

The law is a unit and, if you fail on one point only, you have come under the condemnation of the law.

I remember an elder in Africa who told me, “You know, Pastor, I have overcome most sins and I am living a good life but I have one or two problems that I am still struggling with. But surely God cannot bring that against me when he compares it to all the good things I am doing.”

I said, “Brother, if you are depending on the law, even if you break on one small point, you are finished.” I gave him the illustration of Matthew 19:16-22:

A young man comes to Jesus and says, “What good thing must I do to earn eternal life?”

And Jesus said, “If you want to go to heaven by your deeds, there is the law that is the definition of righteousness.”

And he said, “Well, Jesus, I want you to know that, ever since I was in primary sabbath school, I have been keeping that law.”

And Jesus said, “Really? Let me test you.” And, when he failed, he had to go home sorrowfully.

If you break the law on one point, that’s all, you are finished if you are depending on the law for your salvation. The law is rigid. It demands perfect obedience on every point. Galatians 3, verse 10:

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

[John317]

These are truths, then, that you know but which many people in our world don't know, yet desperately need to know.

Quote:

ROBERT--... you don't need to have a Bible or a church to be convicted and saved. Case in point Romans 2:14-16.

Quote:

Romans 2: 14-16 isn't teaching that people will be saved by works, is it?

Quote:

No...the fruit of Spirit is seen in the lives of these Gentiles who had no knowledge of the Torah (the Old Testament). In their lives were seen the principle found in the last six commandments. Hence the law was written in their hearts. Again that's why Paul states, "THE WHOLE LAW" can be summed in one phrase: "Love your neighbor as yourself".

You have another group of Gentiles who rejected God. They also didn't have the Torah. Let's read about them:

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Why did you point to Romans 2: 14-16 as "a case in point" that one does not need to hear the gospel to be saved?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What is verse 13 teaching? Is he saying that those who practice the law will be recognized as righteous?

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

If you want to be saved by the law, it is not enough to say, “I know the law.” It is not enough to say, “I have the law in its explicit form.” You have to perform that law. You have to do it in every detail. Paul repeats the same thing when he discusses the Jews in chapter 10 of Romans....

But why did you give me all of this by Jack Sequeira? I think you misunderstood me, because your post here was not addressing anything I was talking about. I don't disagree with anything Jack said on this post.

My question had to do with your pointing to Romans 2: 12-14 as a case in point that one can be saved apart from hearing the gospel and putting faith in Christ.

You said:

Quote:

... you don't need to have a Bible or a church to be convicted and saved. Case in point Romans 2:14-16.

I don't believe that Romans 2: 14-16 teaches what you are claiming it says. It does not teach that a man can be convicted and saved apart from the gospel or hearing the word. That is not the purpose of that text.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

.... then let's hear it again. Gerry

Because the Sabbath from the law no longer points to a perfect creation after the fall.

And where is the Bible reference for this doctrine?

Gerry

[Woody]

Do we have to go through all this AGAIN?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Because the Sabbath from the law no longer points to a perfect creation after the fall.

And where is the Bible reference for this doctrine?

Gerry

From reading the Bible without preconceived, traditional eyes. You can lead a horse to water, but....

[Robert]

It does not teach that a man can be convicted and saved apart from the gospel or hearing the word. That is not the purpose of that text.

When is the law written on the heart, before or after conversion?

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified [set apart]. 15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, And upon their mind I will write them,” He then says, 17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

Now compare Romans 2:14 "When Gentiles who have not the law [Torah - the Bible of that time] do by nature what the law requires [they experience agape], they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts....

Clearly they are converted and saved, but they didn't know of the Sabbath. That's because what is written on the heart is the principle of agape, which is in harmony with the last 6 commands.

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

It does not teach that a man can be convicted and saved apart from the gospel or hearing the word. That is not the purpose of that text.

When is the law written on the heart, before or after conversion?

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified [set apart]. 15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, And upon their mind I will write them,” He then says, 17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

Now compare Romans 2:14 "When Gentiles who have not the law [Torah - the Bible of that time] do by nature what the law requires [they experience agape], they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts....

Clearly they are converted and saved, but they didn't know of the Sabbath. That's because what is written on the heart is the principle of agape, which is in harmony with the last 6 commands.

Rob

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son so that whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM may never perish but have eternal life" (John 3: 16). "I most solemnly say to you, no one can ever see the the kingdom of God, unless he is born from above" (v. 3). "For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. But how can people call upon One in whom thy have not believed? And how can they believe in One about whom they have not heard?" (Romans 10: 12-14).

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

When is the law written on the heart' date=' before or after conversion?

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified [set apart']. 15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, And upon their mind I will write them,” He then says, 17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

Now compare Romans 2:14 "When Gentiles who have not the law [Torah - the Bible of that time] do by nature what the law requires [they experience agape], they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts....

Clearly they are converted and saved, but they didn't know of the Sabbath. That's because what is written on the heart is the principle of agape, which is in harmony with the last 6 commands.

Rob

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son so that whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM may never perish but have eternal life" (John 3: 16). "I most solemnly say to you, no one can ever see the the kingdom of God, unless he is born from above" (v. 3). "For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. But how can people call upon One in whom thy have not believed? And how can they believe in One about whom they have not heard?" (Romans 10: 12-14).

John 1:9 "The True Light that enlightens every man was coming into the world."

Enlighten -- A: To furnish knowledge to B: to give spiritual insight to

[John317]

John 1:9 "The True Light that enlightens every man was coming into the world."

Enlighten -- A: To furnish knowledge to B: to give spiritual insight to

OK, sure, but to be "enlightened" does not save a person. Very many people reject this "enlightenment." Everyone is "enlightened" to a certain extent, but clearly NOT everyone will be saved. Many will be lost. Wouldn't you agree? So when we are talking about salvation, it is obvious that more than being "enlightened" is required. We must also respond positively to the Spirit and to the proclamation of the gospel and receive it, putting our faith in Christ as a personal Savior. That is John 3: 16.

What are the conditions of salvation?

[Gerr]

Do we have to go through all this AGAIN?

Sola Scriptura, RW. Sola Scriptura!

Gerry

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

John 1:9 "The True Light that enlightens every man was coming into the world."

Enlighten -- A: To furnish knowledge to B: to give spiritual insight to

OK, sure, but to be "enlightened" does not save a person.

The Gentiles of Romans 1 didn't accept. The Gentiles of Romans 2 did!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

OK' date=' sure, but to be "enlightened" does not save a person.

The Gentiles of Romans 1 didn't accept. The Gentiles of Romans 2 did! [/quote']

Let's review:

You said:

Quote:

... you don't need to have a Bible or a church to be convicted and saved. Case in point Romans 2:14-16.

And I replied: I don't believe that Romans 2: 14-16 teaches what you are claiming it says. It does not teach that a man can be convicted and saved apart from the gospel or hearing the word. That is not the purpose of that text.

Now you've said also that whereas the gentiles referred to in Romans 1 did not accept, the gentiles of Romans 2 did accept the gospel. But how does that mean that a person does not need a Bible or a church (i.e., Christian preachers) to be convicted and saved? Didn't the gentiles of Romans 2 respond positively to the preaching of the gospel and believe?

[Robert]

Didn't the gentiles of Romans 2 respond positively to the preaching of the gospel and believe?

Think outside the box of traditionalism. Turn to Romans 1:19-21

"...What may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made [creation], so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him [they rejected Him]...."

This is the Gentiles of Romans chapter one. Now, using some common sense, the Gentiles of Romans chapter two didn't reject God, but not by the preaching of the gospel through the Torah, but rather through creation.

[John317]

Robert, I tried to notify you by PM about editing an inappropriate line out in your post, but I'm sorry that my message couldn't get through.

About your last statement regarding "the Gentiles of Romans chapter two didn't reject God, but not by the preaching of the gospel through the Torah, but rather through creation."

You're saying that the gentiles of Romans 2 accepted God through creation.

Where does the Bible teach that by accepting and knowing God in this way a man may be saved, that is, apart from any preaching of the gospel of Christ or without knowing or accepting Him?

I'm not denying that God could save people in any way He sees fit, but all I am asking for is Bible evidence teaching clearly that He saves people apart from faith in Christ.

[Robert]

-BC- COL

-TI- Christ's Object Lessons

-CN- 27

-CT- Who is My Neighbour?

-PR- 01

-PG- 385

Wherever there is an impulse of love and sympathy, wherever the heart reaches out to bless and uplift others, there is revealed the working of God's Holy Spirit. In the depths of heathenism, men who have had no knowledge of the written law of God, who have never even heard the name of Christ, have been kind to His servants, protecting them at the risk of their own lives. Their acts show the working of a divine power. The Holy Spirit has implanted the grace of Christ in the heart of the savage, quickening his sympathies contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. [This is clearly the new birth]

[Robert]

Robert, I tried to contact you through PM before editing a line out of your post, but I couldn't.

What? that you need to think outside the box of traditionalism? This offended you so that you removed it?

Well, I'm through with you!

Bye,

Rob

[John317]

I'm aware of the Ellen White quotes and I do believe them, but I was wondering if you see the Bible clearly teaching the same thing in, say, the book of Romans. I don't believe Romans 2 can justifiably be used that way.

Basically the Bible's view is that the preaching of the gospel is necessary for people's salvation. That is the whole purpose of the gospel commission in Matt. 28: 19, 20 and also the significance of Matt. 24: 14 about the gospel going to all nations before the end comes. It is necessary in order for people to be saved. After all, Jesus says no one can enter the kingdom without being born from above and without believing in Him, and then in other verses elsewhere it clearly says that those who call upon the Lord Jesus will be saved.

Again, if God sees fit to save some who have no chance to hear the gospel proclaimed, that is up to Him, of course, but we have to base our theology of salvation on the Bible. And in the Bible it seems clear to me that the preaching of the gospel and receiving it is essential for people's salvation.

[John317]

Quote:

What? that you need to think outside the box of traditionalism? This offended you so that you removed it? [/quote']

I removed the name-calling. I would remove it no matter who is using it and no matter who it is used against. It's not appropriate on these threads.

We can have a great discussion without those things.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Quote:

What? that you need to think outside the box of traditionalism? This offended you so that you removed it?

I removed the name-calling. I would remove it no matter who is using it and no matter who it is used against. It's not appropriate on these threads.

We can have a great discussion without those things.

[/quote']

My personal experience on CA has been that name calling is allowed. But if there is a rule against it ... I am all for it and enforcement. Previously and even recently ... when a moderator gets tired of name calling .... the entire thread is sent to cyber Hell. So if this is a new philosophy to actually enforce and to edit portions that are offensive ... I gladly approve. But I do hope it will from this day forward be uniform. That has been sadly lacking in my years experience here.

Onward and Forward ...

[Robert]

My personal experience on CA has been that name calling is allowed. But if there is a rule against it ... I am all for it and enforcement.

I don't consider "rascal" name calling, but that's not my call.

Rob

[Robert]

I'm aware of the Ellen White quotes and I do believe them, but I was wondering if you see the Bible clearly teaching the same thing in, say, the book of Romans. I don't believe Romans 2 can justifiably be used that way.