'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

...No, no...you fail to understand. Hitler was included in Christ's humanity. He was "in Christ" at the incarnation...in His earthly life...He died "in Christ"....But Hitler's life remained in the grave. It never came out. The same of your old life. In the resurrection Christ took a sinless, glorified life to heaven. This must be received by faith.

Yes, I am not denying that Hitler could have been saved (assuming he will not be) if he had accepted the gift God offers to all mankind.

[Gerr]

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HISTORIC PAUL

"Those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" [NASB]

This isn't salvation by law. A practiced sin isn't one I willfully do. A practiced sin is a known sin I have been convicted of and one I have refused to acknowledge before God.

I see that you are still insisting on your OWN definitions. Here again is Websters definition of the word "practice" - 1. a. to carry out, apply (practice what you preach. to do or perform often, customarily, habitually c) to be professionally engaged in (practice medicine)

2. to perform or work repeatedly so as to become proficient (practice the act)

"acknowledge" - 1. to recognize the rights, authority, or status of. 2. to disclose knowledge of or agreement with

Just to acknowledge, recognize, agree with God that I am sinning is NOT enough. The Bible is clear that for one to be forgiven and saved, one must repent (change of mind) and be converted (turn around, change from one form to another).

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You see forgiveness, as wonderful as it is, isn't law keeping. Forgiveness is admitting that I am a law beaker...a sinner. Besides the sins listed above I am, present tense, falling short of God's goodness...His agape love. So I must also repent that I am never measuring up. Are you doing that Gerry? IF not you, my friend, are practicing sin - the sin of self-righteousness.

By YOUR definition, are there any of the unfallen beings "measuring up" to God's love? Any of them AS perfect as God? No? Then they are ALL sinners too?

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So Paul is no Historic Adventist. If he were alive today his letter to the Galatians would be called "Adventism" since they have many similarities.

You can ridicule all you want, but the same Paul that you are appealing to emphatically states: "...that those who practice such things (sins) WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:21.

And to make certain no one misunderstands his message, he repeated the same message to the Ephesians.

"For this you know, that NO fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU WITH EMPTY WORDS, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

For you WERE ONCE darkness, but NOW you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth)..." Eph 5:5-9 NKJ.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, I am not denying that Hitler could have been saved (assuming he will not be) if he had accepted the gift God offers to all mankind. [/quote']

Clearly you don't understand the gospel, i.e., the truth as it is "in Christ". If you did you wouldn't contradict yourself.

Hitler was "in Christ" at the incarnation. In fact the human race was "in Christ". Every child of Adam was "in Him" at the incarnation. He literally saved "all men" by His doing and dying. Paul teaches this. We have been saved by grace. If not how do infants, who have died before the age of accountability, make it to heaven? Answer: "In Christ".

WHERE does Paul teach it? If what you are saying is true, why then did Jesus tell Nicodemus, "You must be born AGAIN if he was already perfect and born again "in Christ" at the incarnation? Furthermore, Paul says,

"Therefore, if anyone is IN CHRIST, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." 2 Cor 5:17 NKJ.

At what point does this experience happen? At the incarnation? NO!!! It happens at the point of conversion!

"He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 Jn 5:12 NKJ.

When did that happen for me? At the incarnation? NO!!!!!!!! It happened at the moment I truly asked Jesus to come in to my life!

Gerry

[Robert]

I see that you are still insisting on your OWN definitions. Here again is Websters definition

[Robert]

WHERE does Paul teach it?

You look the references up to familiarize yourself with the gospel truth:

"one died for all, therefore all died"

"God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

[Robert]

...why then did Jesus tell Nicodemus, "You must be born AGAIN if he was already perfect and born again "in Christ" at the incarnation?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I see that you are still insisting on your OWN definitions. Here again is Websters definition

I didn't know there was a book of the Bible named Webster? I use the Bible to define "practice". Here it is:

If you disregard the meaning of commonly used words and have your own meanings, then it would be impossible to communicte with you.

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1 John 1:8 If we confess our sins [acknowledge our sins], He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If this were the only text in the whole Bible that addressed the issue of forgiveness and salvation, then I would have to agree with you that all you need to be forgiven is just to confess/acknowledge that one is a sinner. However, there are other passages of Scripture that weigh in on this issue. When convicted by the preaching of Peter, the people asked:

"Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...." Acts 2:37,38

And what is repentance? The Greek word means to change one's mind for the better, heartily to amend with abhorrence one's past sins. And Webster (your total disregard for Webster notwithstanding) defines repentance as: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the ammendment of one's life; to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition.

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By YOUR definition, are there any of the unfallen beings "measuring up" to God's love?

Yes, like Adam before the fall.

As perfect as God? In that case they are all gods!

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You can ridicule all you want, but the same Paul that you are appealing to emphatically states: "...that those who practice such things (sins) WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:21.

Again, a practiced sin is one you refuse to repent of! Remember what Christ said about forgiving 70x7? He didn't mean 490 times. "He who comes to me I will in no wise cast out."

I'm glad you are adding repentance. Yes, a sinner is forgiven as long as one repents of the sin! But does a believer who willfully/deliberately/high-handedly/rebelliously break God's law remain in a saved condition before he repents? The Bible is not silent on this point.

"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live?.....because of them he shall die.....

"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways." says the Lord God. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord God. "Therefore turn and live!" Ez 18:24-32 NKJ

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: GerryCabalo

WHERE does Paul teach it?

You look the references up to familiarize yourself with the gospel truth:

"one died for all, therefore all died"

In a sense, yes, all humanity died with the second Adam, Christ, who was our representative. But where in Scripture does it say that Hitler and Polpot or any other unrepentant (assuming they were unrepentant) were justified at His incarnation or death?

The Scripture is very clear as to when justification occurs.

"But now the righteousness of God has been revealed independently and altogether apart from the Law, although actually it is attested by the Law and the Prophets. Namely, the righteousness of God WHICH COMES BY BELIEVING with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [And it is meant] for all who believe. For there is no distinction." Rom 3:21,22 Amp.

So, while Christ died for all, the benefit of that death does not occur until a sinner puts his/her faith/trust/confidence in Jesus Christ. Furthermore, only in a SENSE did I die with Christ BEFORE I was born. The reality of my dying with and in Him did not occur until I put my faith on Him and became BAPTIZED. That's what baptism is about - dying with Him and being raised with Him. See Rom 6:3,4.

If all sinners were justified at His incarnation and resurrection, then NOBODY is lost. That is clearly NOT the case.

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"God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."

You conveniently left out a very important part of the verse. The verse reads: "For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH...." Eph 2:8.

When does salvation/justification occur? At the time a sinner completely surrenders and puts his faith in Christ. Not 2000 yrs ago!!!

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"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

Let me quote the NEXT verse, since you are a stickler for context.

"For as by one man's disobedience many WERE made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many WILL BE MADE RIGHTEOUS." Rom 5:19 NKJ

If the justification occurred 2000 yrs ago, Paul would have used the PAST TENSE on both accounts. The "will be made righteous" is in the FUTURE tense. For those who believed in God before the Cross, justification was not conferred to them until after Jesus' resurrection. I have already quoted passages of Scripture that shows when the sinner dies with Christ and is raised with Christ. Furthermore, Jesus Himself said:

[color:red]"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Jn 3:18 NKJ.

If the sinner was already justified "in Christ" BEFORE he was even born, then he would not be under condemnation. Everyone born would be considered child of God since they are born justified. The fact is, everyone born the first time is by "nature children of wrath, just as the others," Eph 2:4 NKJ, and "children of the devil" 1 Jn 3:10. A sinner that does not become really a child of God until he/she is born again and starts to "practice righteousness", 1 Jn 3:7-10.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

...why then did Jesus tell Nicodemus, "You must be born AGAIN if he was already perfect and born again "in Christ" at the incarnation?

Nicodemus came from fallen Adam. Christ took that life, after the fall, and united it with His Deity. Nicodemus life was included in that life Christ assumed from Mary's womb.

Huh? And that's supposed to answer the question why he must be born again? So, why must Nicodemnus be born again if he was already born justified "in Christ?"

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"Therefore, if anyone is IN CHRIST, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." 2 Cor 5:17 NKJ.

So you think this applies to you, huh? Tell me, have "all things" become new in your experience? Do you still sin? Do you still retain a sinful nature? Are you still mortal? Yes? Then all things have not become new in you! Only "in Christ" (who is in heaven) have "all things" become new.

Rob

You don't consider a person who is a "child of the devil", "child of wrath", "slave to sin", in whom "nothing good dwells," who is "dead in trespasses," headed to hell, you don't consider such a person a new creature when he becomes: "child of God," "slave of righteousness," "slave of God", "His workmanship," "created in Christ Jesus," one who is walking "in the Spirit" instead of walking after the flesh? Instead of "adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contententions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, & revelries," he now has "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control," you don't call that a new creation? And by and by, he will soon shed his mortal body and puts on immortality?

At any rate, that is God's testimony - that when I chose Christ and commit my life fully to Him, I am a brand new person!

Gerry

[Gerr]

Conferred should read "confirmed".

Gerry

[John317]

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"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men' date=' even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."[/quote']

You make too much of the words, "there resulted." Look at the evidence:

The words, "there resulted," are supplied by the translator and do not occur in the Greek. Here is how Paul actually wrote it:

"Indeed then as through one offense, on all men to condemnation; so also through one righteousness, on all men to justification of life."

Anyone who knows Greek will tell you that this is how it actually reads, literally. You will see this if you study Romans 5:18 in any interlinear, which gives the Greek with the English translation directly beneath the Greek words. In fact, if you have the New American Standard, you can see this in the margin, where it says, "Lit. to condemnation," and "Lit. to an act of righteousness."

Here is Darby's literal translation: " so then as [it was] by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life."

Here is Robert Young's literal: "So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life."

Therefore, as stated earlier-- and as we've discussed before-- the words, "there resulted," cannot be accepted as evidence of what you say, for they are supplied by the translator in accordance with his theological understanding.

The fact of it is, that we could just as legitimately supply the words, "there will result," and not "there [already] resulted."

Please compare Romans 5: 18 in the Christian Standard Bible: "So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone."

Instead of supplying the words, "there resulted," various very good translators have translated it thus:

Weymouth: ".... just as the result of a single transgression is condemnation for all mankind, so also the result of a single deed of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal for all mankind."

Conybeare: "Therefore, as the fruit of one offence reached to all men, and brought upon them condemnation [the source of death]; so likewise the fruit of one acquittal shall reach to all, and shall bring justification, the source of life."

The New-Life Version: "Through Adam's sin, death and hell came to all men. But another Man, Christ, by His right act makes men free and gives them life."

Instead of "there resulted," Goodspeed supplied the words, "meant" and "means."

If you look carefully at verse 19, that is exactly what Paul says. Verse 19: (RYL) "for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous."

NASB: "For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."

Paul says "were constituted sinners," and then "will be constituted righteous [persons]."

The only reasonable conclusion we can come to then, in view of the above facts, is that one is not justified on the basis of Romans 5:18 in asserting that Paul is teaching that all men were made righteous at some point in the distant past.

[Robert]

As perfect as God? In that case they are all gods!

That conclusion is ridiculous.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...."

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

You look the references up to familiarize yourself with the gospel truth:

"one died for all' date=' therefore all died"[/quote'][color:blue]

In a sense, yes, all humanity died with the second Adam, Christ, who was our representative. But where in Scripture does it say that Hitler and Polpot or any other unrepentant (assuming they were unrepentant) were justified at His incarnation or death?

Romans 5:8 But God shows his love [His agape] for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood [His life laid down in death], much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son

[Robert]

I said:

Quote:

So you think this applies to you, huh? Tell me, have "all things" become new in your experience? Do you still sin? Do you still retain a sinful nature? Are you still mortal? Yes? Then all things have not become new in you!

At any rate, that is God's testimony - that when I chose Christ and commit my life fully to Him, I am a brand new person!

I'm sorry, did you say something?

"Do you still sin? Do you still retain a sinful nature? Are you still mortal? Yes? Then all things have not become new in you!"

[Robert]

Instead of supplying the words, "there resulted," various very good translators have translated it thus:....The only reasonable conclusion we can come to then, in view of the above facts, is that one is not justified on the basis of Romans 5:18 in asserting that Paul is teaching that all men were made righteous at some point in the distant past.

"Good translators"..."the only reasonable conclusion"! You kill me John....You funny man. teehe

[Robert]

John: "one is not justified on the basis of Romans 5:18 in asserting that Paul is teaching that all men were made righteous at some point in the distant past."

Then you were not a sinner until you outwardly sinned, right?

Rob

[Robert]

John: "one is not justified on the basis of Romans 5:18 in asserting that Paul is teaching that all men were made righteous at some point in the distant past."

Then you were not a sinner until you outwardly sinned, right?

Rob

Wrong!

Psalm 51:5. David was “shapen in iniquity” from his very birth. This was his spiritual condition since physically he was handsome [1 Samuel 16:12]. The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

Isaiah 53:6. Two things are revealed in this text. 1. Everyone of us has gone astray, since we have all turned or bent “to his own way.” 2. This own-way-ness (i.e., self-centeredness) is synonymous with iniquity, which was laid upon Christ our sin bearer; and it was this “sin in the flesh” that Christ “condemned” on the cross [Romans 8:2-3].

Iniquity, therefore, is simply seeking our own way, a condition we are born with and which (without a Saviour) makes it impossible to do genuine righteousness, since the law of God requires even our motives to be pure [Matthew 5:20-22, 27-28]. In contrast to iniquity or self-seeking is agape (divine love) which is of God and which “seeketh not her own” [1 Corinthians 13:5].

Conclusion: You are a sinner by birth!

Now, o'wise one, how are babies who have died during birth, saved? EGW says many will be there...even the motherless ones. Maybe you're wrong...maybe you are opposing truth here. You better be real sure humanity wasn't legally justified "in Christ" 2000 years ago. Make absolutely sure because you could be opposing the gospel and you don't want to do that because the consequences are terrible.

[John317]

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

As perfect as God? In that case they are all gods!

That conclusion is ridiculous.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...."

Now you know how ridiculous it is for you to quote Mt. 5:48 and demand that man be EXACTLY as perfect as God!

Soooooo, they are falling short, eh?

Gerry

[Gerr]

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In a sense, yes, all humanity died with the second Adam, Christ, who was our representative. But where in Scripture does it say that Hitler and Polpot or any other unrepentant (assuming they were unrepentant) were justified at His incarnation or death?

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Romans 5:8 But God shows his love [His agape'] for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood [His life laid down in death], much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son

Of course!!! It is for sinners Christ died. Healthy people don't need a doctor! And when does justification and reconciliation occur? 2000 yrs ago for me? Ridiculous! I was not there to reject or accept Him! In case you just glossed over the text as to WHEN justification and reconciliation takes place, let me quote Paul AGAIN:

"But NOW a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. THIS RIGHTEOUSNESS FROM GOD COMES THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST TO ALL WHO BELIEVE. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified [present tense, not past tense] freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Rom 3:21-24 NIV.

If justification, reconciliation, and atonement all took place 2000 yrs ago for everyone that ever lived after the Cross, then there would be no need for the heavenly sanctuary services. There would be no need for a Mediator or a High Priest. But a sinner, me, can come to God TODAY, present by faith the blood sacrifice of 2000 yrs ago, and be reconciled to God. That is why the author of Hebrews says, "TODAY, when you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts." We are NOT saved or lost corporately. We come to God individually, saved and reconciled one by one. If the sinner has already been justified, there would be no need for such an appeal.

And yes, no matter what you say, when a sinner does that, God's testimony is that that person has been born again, a new creation! He may start with a lot of warts and sores, but by the process of sanctification, those are shed and healed one by one, and then shed them all and crowned with glory at the coming of the Lord.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

1) Why are you quoting Ellen White as if she is an authority on this or any other subject? Why quote her one minute as an authority and then turn around the next and dismiss her as someone's legalistic pope?

2) Let's suppose that you are right and that every single human was legally justified in Christ 2000 years ago. Now what? What difference does it make if Hitler was "justified" while he was pouring poison into the camps to kill all those millions of people?

Even supposing that Hitler was a justified man while murdering millions of people, it makes no difference as far as his personal salvation is concerned.

I have a close friend who is not a Christian but is basically an atheist. Now you say that he is already "justified" and "in Christ" whether he likes it or not. How is what you believe going to change or affect your approach to someone when it come to communicating the gospel? [/quote']

Excellent questions. I think it is disingenuous to quote a person as authority only when she backs up one's position and then reject those that are contrary.

Gerry

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

Excellent questions. I think it is disingenuous to quote a person as authority only when she backs up one's position and then reject those that are contrary.

This is simply ridiculous. No one person has ALL the answers nor is one person Perfect.

In with the good ... out with the bad.

No author is placed in this position that I know of. Since when is there a rule that states you have to agree 100% with an author in order to quote said author?

Never heard of that one ....

[Robert]

Why are you quoting Ellen White as if she is an authority on this or any other subject?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

That conclusion is ridiculous.

Gen 1:26 Then God said' date=' “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...."

Now you know how ridiculous it is for you to quote Mt. 5:48 and demand that man be EXACTLY as perfect as God![/quote']

Christ gave that command to shut the mouth of the legalists so they could let go of their self-righteousness and accept His righteousness. He is calling you to repentance too Gerry.

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Soooooo, they are falling short, eh?

Gerry

Yes, this side of the fall we aren't perfectly walking in self-denial as Christ did and does....

[Robert]

And when does justification and reconciliation occur? 2000 yrs ago for me? Ridiculous! I was not there to reject or accept Him!