'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day

[Robert]

We can do the right thing for the wrong reason and the act becomes meaningless.

“God's law reaches the feelings and motives, as well as the outward acts. It reveals the secrets of the heart, flashing light upon things before buried in darkness. God knows every thought, every purpose, every plan, every motive. The books of heaven record the sins that would have been committed had there been opportunity." [5BC 1085]

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Romans 3:22...For there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned [past tense] and fall short [present continuous tense] of the glory of God [His goodness], 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus...

And?

And this doesn't mean to return to your preconverted life before Christ. Your old life with homosexuality is behind you. Leave it there. I am telling no one to go back and enjoy the sins they, through the Spirit, overcame.

Who said this? Paul:

Phil 3:7 But whatever things were gain to me [what "things" - read Phil 3:5,6], those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish [KJV: "dung"] in order that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him [that's the "in Christ" motif], not having a righteousness of my own [self-righteousness] derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith [both imputed and imparted], 10 that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained it [the resurrection], or have already become perfect [hence "fall short"], but I press on in order that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as are mature, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

[Woody]

Quote:

Then don't claim to be without sin and act as if you are keeping the whole of the law because I will say, "Show me!"

Thank you Robert. You have done a great job of showing clearly through scripture and Ellen White that we are saved IN our sins in addition to FROM some sins. But that in the end ... we fail to answer the demands of the law and therefore the works that Christ does IN us are as filthy rags towards our salvation.

Why? Becuase the only works that count as good enough towards our salvation ... are the works that Jesus Himself did by doing and dying for us. That is all that matters. So our filthy works will just not measure up no matter who is doing them in us.

As Ellen White states ... it is no longer possible for us to keep the entire law ... therefore we are cursed without the life and death of Jesus.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

And? [/quote']

And this doesn't mean to return to your preconverted life before Christ. Your old life with homosexuality is behind you. Leave it there. I am telling no one to go back and enjoy the sins they, through the Spirit, overcame.

Who said this? Paul:

Phil 3:7 But whatever things were gain to me [what "things" - read Phil 3:5,6], those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish [KJV: "dung"] in order that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him [that's the "in Christ" motif], not having a righteousness of my own [self-righteousness] derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith [both imputed and imparted], 10 that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained it [the resurrection], or have already become perfect [hence "fall short"], but I press on in order that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as are mature, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

I can agree with you on everything in this post, Robert. The only thing we may differ on, as far as this discussion here is concerned, is your interpretation of the "in Christ" motif in Phil. 3: 9. I don't believe that this refers to something that all of humanity has or is simply by virtue of Christ's death. In other words, Paul is not saying all of humanity is already "in Christ." He says, ".... that I may be found in Christ," something that makes no sense if he and all of humanity are already in Christ irrespective of any choice anyone makes.

Take a look at Romans 8: 1: "Now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." That is obviously not saying that there is no condemnation for all of humanity. It is saying that there is no condemnation for those who have accepted Christ as their Savior and Lord.

Again, look at Romans 6: 11: ".... think of yourself as [being] dead to sin and living for God in Christ Jesus." This takes place "through union with Christ Jesus" (Twentieth Century NT). It is obvious that not all of humanity is "alive to God [living in unbroken fellowship with Him] in Christ Jesus" (Amplified Bible). This requires a decision on our part. It is what John 3: 16 is talking about. It requires faith in God and in His Messiah.

Christ died and rose again in order that all of humanity might potentially be "in Christ," but that requires a choice on the part of individuals. Being in Christ and Christ being in us is the same thing. Being "in Christ" means being in union or in fellowship with Him.

[Robert]

Take a look at Romans 8: 1: "Now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." That is obviously not saying that there is no condemnation for all of humanity. It is saying that there is no condemnation for those who have accepted Christ as their Savior and Lord.

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's doing & dying] there resulted justification of life to all men.

"All humanity" has been legally justified "in Christ." Hence "all men" have been saved "in Christ". The same is found in Eph 2:4-6

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love [agape] with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions [anti-God and living for the flesh], made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus..."

Note from God's point of view all men have been "saved by grace" - i.e., what God did "in Christ." However, since God is love He will not force this truth on any man. Let's read this:

Romans 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

And Eph 2:8 states the same:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith...."

So yes "in Christ" all men have been legally saved, but not all men will make it to heaven because "some" (or "many") will refuse the atonement.

Robert

[Robert]

So yes "in Christ" all men have been legally saved, but not all men will make it to heaven because "some" (or "many") will refuse the atonement.

Now there's a catch here....What about those who die before they can be reached either through the preaching of the gospel and/or the True Light that enlightens every man?

Ellen was asked if all infants who died would make it to heaven. She stated she didn't know. Nevertheless, we know from her writings that there will be motherless infants in heaven. How do they get there?

Here's what I believe: By the doing and dying of Christ all men have been legally saved from death to life. So those who have no opportunity to understand, much less hear the gospel, will be saved. In other words I believe what Christ has done has legally reversed our situation "in Adam" - i.e., from condemnation to immortality! So babies, while they are technically sinners, are born saved. However, if they live they can reject the gospel and be lost when they reach the age of accountability.

That's my understanding,

Robert

[Robert]

Christ died and rose again in order that all of humanity might potentially be "in Christ,"

No, on the cross "the human race" was "in Christ". If not you must teach predestination, which says only the "elect" was saved "in Christ" - i.e., those God knew would accept Christ, but the Bible doesn't teach limited atonement.

Here's Ellen:

By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man [mankind]. [How?] This was not done by going out of Himself to another [as the Holy Spirit comes into your life], but by taking humanity into Himself. [What type of humanity?]….To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity, is the work of redemption.

[Robert]

Here's another one that clearly show that the whole human race was "in Christ":

When the voice of the angel was heard saying, “Thy Father calls thee,” He who had said, “I lay down my life, that I might take it again,” “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Deity did not die. Humanity died ….

You see "in Christ" humanity has literally taken the curse. The law has been satisfied, legally. So there's not one reason that every man, woman and child should miss out on heaven accept that they refuse to believe!

[John317]

Just looking over your last three posts, I would say that we are in basic agreement. I think some of the disagreements we have on these issues boil down to disagreements over the use of language and terms or phrases.

I certainly believe what Ellen White says here, but am somewhat surprised that you would quote her as an authority. You must realize that most non-SDAs would find her teachings on this to contradict the Bible's view. I believe it is in harmony with what the Bible teaches about God, but I can understand why some Christians would object to her view of that topic.

The main thought I would have about it is that it's important for us as a church to build our understanding of the importance and urgency of giving the gospel on the basis of what the Bible teaches and not on those few statements by Ellen White (as much as I personally believe them).

[Robert]

I certainly believe what Ellen White says here, but am somewhat surprised that you would quote her as an authority. You must realize that most non-SDAs would find her teachings on this to contradict the Bible's view.

But this is an SDA forum....If you were on a Baptist forum they might quote Billy Graham.

When it comes to the "in Christ" truth I think Ellen has much light. I can prove it from the Bible....

[Gerr]

Quote:

Then don't claim to be without sin and act as if you are keeping the whole of the law because I will say, "Show me!"

Thank you Robert. You have done a great job of showing clearly through scripture and Ellen White that we are saved IN our sins in addition to FROM some sins. But that in the end ... we fail to answer the demands of the law and therefore the works that Christ does IN us are as filthy rags towards our salvation.

Why? Becuase the only works that count as good enough towards our salvation ... are the works that Jesus Himself did by doing and dying for us. That is all that matters. So our filthy works will just not measure up no matter who is doing them in us.

As Ellen White states ... it is no longer possible for us to keep the entire law ... therefore we are cursed without the life and death of Jesus.

And how much more clearly can Paul tell you that you are both wrong???

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are, adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissentions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I told you in time past, that those who practice such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." Gal 5:19-24 NKJ

"But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that NO fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU WITH EMPTY WORDS, FOR BECAUSE OF THESE THINGS THE WRATH OF GOD COMES UPON THE SONS OF DISOBEDIENCE. Therefore do not be partakers with them." Eph 5:3-7 NKJ

"Therefore put to death your members which are on earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves ONCE walked when you lived in them." Col 3:5-7 NKJ.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Here's another one that clearly show that the whole human race was "in Christ":

When the voice of the angel was heard saying, “Thy Father calls thee,” He who had said, “I lay down my life, that I might take it again,” “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Deity did not die. Humanity died ….

You see "in Christ" humanity has literally taken the curse. The law has been satisfied, legally. So there's not one reason that every man, woman and child should miss out on heaven accept that they refuse to believe!

Friend, there are over a BILLION believing Christians, and there are over a BILLION believing Muslims. Are all these saved?

[color:red] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord,' have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS!'

Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and DOES them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock....

But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.... Mt 7:21-26 NKJ

Gerry

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I certainly believe what Ellen White says here, but am somewhat surprised that you would quote her as an authority. You must realize that most non-SDAs would find her teachings on this to contradict the Bible's view.

But this is an SDA forum....If you were on a Baptist forum they might quote Billy Graham.

When it comes to the "in Christ" truth I think Ellen has much light. I can prove it from the Bible....

I don't think it's either Biblical or very meaningful to say that all mankind is "in Christ." Where does Ellen White state this?

Do you mean that you believe that Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot and Mao were "in Christ" their whole lives? I have a very hard time believing that I am no more "in Christ" this moment than I was when I was deliberately sitting in a bar somewhere getting drunk and planning all kinds of sinful things. What is the difference between the Christian "in Christ" whom Stalin murdered and Stalin himself who you say is also "in Christ'"?

If what you say is true, then we shouldn't tell the criminal that he needs to have faith in Christ so as to be "in Christ". We should be telling the criminal that he only needs to realize that he is already in Christ and that he has always been in Christ; in fact, even when he was cutting that woman's throat or killing that baby, he was "in Christ." So it is not a matter of choice. A man has no choice but to be "in Christ." A man is "in Christ" no matter whether he wants to be or not. As a matter of fact, according to your view, then, untold millions of people will be "in Christ" even while the seven last plagues fall on them, while they have the "mark of the beast" and then later they will still be "in Christ" when they are destroyed along with Satan and his evil angels. So both those sealed with the seal of God and those marked with the mark of the beast are equally "in Christ." Is that right?

[Gerr]

What does falling short mean? That the believer continues to fornicate? Murder? Covet? Have idols?

[color:red]

"He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Rev 21:7,8 NKJ

"Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever LOVES and PRACTICES a lie." Rev 22:14,15 NKJ

Falling short? YES!!! Practicing sin? NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

If a believer who is practicing sin is saved, then no one is lost. And Satan is saved after all!!!

Gerry

[Robert]

I have a very hard time believing that I am no more "in Christ" this moment than I was when I was deliberately sitting in a bar somewhere getting drunk and planning all kinds of sinful things.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love [i.e., His agape love] with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions [spiritually dead - the mind and the flesh in harmony], made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us [i.e., those dead in transgressions] up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus

"In Christ" Hitler has a perfect humanity free from all sin. He stands perfect in the Beloved. Christ's didn't take a sinful humanity to heaven - He took a sinless humanity with Him. We receive this new life at the resurrection if we have accepted this truth. As far as I know Hitler didn't accept this truth.

Rob

[Robert]

Gerry, you are true representative of Tradition, Historic Adventism. You deserve a trophy!

[John317]

There are many orthodox, "traditional" views that are correct, aren't there?

Just because a doctrine is "historical," or "traditional" is no mark against it.

Neither is it an evidence that something is true because it is not traditional or historical.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I have a very hard time believing that I am no more "in Christ" this moment than I was when I was deliberately sitting in a bar somewhere getting drunk and planning all kinds of sinful things.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love [i.e., His agape love] with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions [spiritually dead - the mind and the flesh in harmony], made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us [i.e., those dead in transgressions] up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus

"In Christ" Hitler has a perfect humanity free from all sin. He stands perfect in the Beloved. Christ's didn't take a sinful humanity to heaven - He took a sinless humanity with Him. We receive this new life at the resurrection if we have accepted this truth. As far as I know Hitler didn't accept this truth.

Rob

Yes, you are right. Hitler never accepted that truth, and therefore Hitler never did have that perfect humanity free from all sin. He could have, but he rejected the offer. We have it only so long as we have Christ. See 1 John 5: 11, 12-- "God gave us eternal life, and this life is IN His Son. He who possesses the Son has that life; he who does not possess the Son of God does not have that life."

This new life begins in the present life on this earth. If we don't begin it now, we won't have it at the resurrection. This "eternal life" is a quality of life that we have as a gift in union with Christ, and it starts the moment we receive the Holy Spirit into our lives.

[Woody]

Gerry, you are true representative of Tradition, Historic Adventism. You deserve a trophy!

He certainly has hung in there strong hasn't he. We do have to give him credit for that.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Eph 2:4 But God' date=' being rich in mercy, because of His great love [i.e., His agape love'] with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions [spiritually dead - the mind and the flesh in harmony], made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us [i.e., those dead in transgressions] up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus

"In Christ" Hitler has a perfect humanity free from all sin. He stands perfect in the Beloved. Christ's didn't take a sinful humanity to heaven - He took a sinless humanity with Him. We receive this new life at the resurrection if we have accepted this truth. As far as I know Hitler didn't accept this truth.

Rob

Yes, you are right. Hitler never accepted that truth, and therefore Hitler never did have that perfect humanity free from all sin.

No, no...you fail to understand. Hitler was included in Christ's humanity. He was "in Christ" at the incarnation...in His earthly life...He died "in Christ"....But Hitler's life remained in the grave. It never came out. The same of your old life. In the resurrection Christ took a sinless, glorified life to heaven. This must be received by faith.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Gerry, you are true representative of Tradition, Historic Adventism. You deserve a trophy!

He certainly has hung in there strong hasn't he. We do have to give him credit for that.

"The last great delusion is soon to open before us. Antichrist is to perform his marvelous works in our sight. So closely will the counterfeit resemble the true that it will be impossible to distinguish between them except by the Holy Scriptures. By their testimony every statement and every miracle must be tested." GC 593.

"...spiritualism is now changing its form and, veiling some of its more objectionable features, is assuming a Christian guise.....

....While it formerly denounced Christ and the Bible, it now professes to accept both. But the Bible is interpreted in a manner that is pleasing to the unrenewed heart, while its solemn and vital truths are made of no effect. Love is dwelt upon as the chief attribute of God but it is degred to a weak sentimentalism, making little distinction between good and evil. God's justice, His denunciations of sin, the requirements of His holy law, are all kept out of sight. The people are taught to regard the Decalogue as a dead letter." GC 557-558.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Gerry, you are true representative of Tradition, Historic Adventism. You deserve a trophy!

"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissentions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21 NIV

HISTORIC PAUL

[John317]

...No, no...you fail to understand. Hitler was included in Christ's humanity. He was "in Christ" at the incarnation...in His earthly life...He died "in Christ"....But Hitler's life remained in the grave. It never came out. The same of your old life. In the resurrection Christ took a sinless, glorified life to heaven. This must be received by faith.

Yes, I am not denying that Hitler could have been saved (assuming he will not be) if he had accepted the gift God offers to all mankind.

Of what practical benefit is it to teach that all men, such as Hitler and Pol Pot, etc., are already "in Christ"? Most people, when they hear that, are likely to misunderstand and think it means they are already saved, or that all people will ultimately be saved. They ask, how can God ever destroy people He loves and who are "in Christ"? Will God destroy those who are "in" His Son? And if so, what difference does it make whether one is "in Christ" or not, in the sense you are using it, since everybody is "in Christ," even those who hate God, and regardless of any choice on anyone's part?

Are the following verses all of the verses that you believe teach that all of humanity is "in Christ": Romans 5: 16; 2 Cor. 5: 18, 19; 1 Tim. 4: 10; Titus 2: 11; 1 John 2:2? Are there other verses that appear to you to teach this? If so, what are they?

Finally, in your understanding, what statements by Ellen White clearly teach this same thing?

[Robert]

Love is dwelt upon as the chief attribute of God but it is degraded to a weak sentimentalism, making little distinction between good and evil. God's justice, His denunciations of sin, the requirements of His holy law, are all kept out of sight. The people are taught to regard the Decalogue as a dead letter." GC 557-558.

Gerry

God is agape. God loves me, a sinner...his enemy, more than Himself. The cross of Christ proves this. Love is everything!

Christ primarily came to save me from "the curse of the law"! Why? "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." [Gal 3:10/Deuteronomy 27:26]

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Gerry, you are true representative of Tradition, Historic Adventism. You deserve a trophy!

"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissentions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21 NIV

HISTORIC PAUL

"Those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" [NASB]

This isn't salvation by law. A practiced sin isn't one I willfully do. A practiced sin is a known sin I have been convicted of and one I have refused to acknowledge before God.

You see forgiveness, as wonderful as it is, isn't law keeping. Forgiveness is admitting that I am a law beaker...a sinner. Besides the sins listed above I am, present tense, falling short of God's goodness...His agape love. So I must also repent that I am never measuring up. Are you doing that Gerry? IF not you, my friend, are practicing sin - the sin of self-righteousness.

So Paul is no Historic Adventist. If he were alive today his letter to the Galatians would be called "Adventism" since they have many similarities.