Doug Bachelor's interpretations - part 2 - "The Rich Young Ruler"

[Robert]

The Bible commands that you should be disfellowshipped, that if we allow you in our house or even bid you Godspeed, then we partake of your evil deeds.

[Robert]

It was Lucifer who develop this u-turn agape. This is what you fail to understand!

So let's get you straight on the facts. Look up 1 Cor 13:3

"If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love [agape], it [the act] is meaningless."

You were not born with agape (a selfless love). You were born selfish and from the moment you took your first breath all you did outwardly was out of your love for self. Hence, as David states, you and I were sinners by birth.

Now look at how Paul defines holiness: 4 [agape] is patient, [agape] is kind. [agape]does not envy, [agape] does not boast, [agape] is not proud. 5 [agape] is not rude, [agape] is not self-seeking ....

Now let's reference EGW: In explaining agape, Ellen states:

“...There will be no rivalry, no self-seeking, no desire for the highest place. [Now she gives an example:] You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439]

Note your ambition should be centered in others. Your desires shouldn't be inward, as in my wealth, my education, my this...my that. Everything you do should be for others. You should live for their prosperity and they yours. That's how it will be in heaven where there's no sin (selfishness).

Now let's see what Ellen states concerning sin:

"There should be less proud self-seeking, less self-importance. When the members of the church are clothed with humility, when they put from them self-esteem and self-seeking, when they seek constantly to do God's will, then they will work together in harmony." [5T, 479]

Note she didn't say, "There should be no self-seeking [sin]". In other words she is saying sin less. She didn't say a little sin is okay...no, but then again she understood our human predicament. Even Christ said, "The spirit [the person] is willing, but the flesh is weak."

We are sinners, although growing. You will never be good enough for heaven outside Christ your righteousness. Get that down.

[Woody]

Quote:

Joe Crews was a fine subtle legalist.

I do have to disagree with you Rob. There was nothing subtle about it.

[Robert]

Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to [agape] one another, for he who [agapes] his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore [agape] is the fulfillment of the law .

Please note agape (a love that has no self-seeking in it) fulfills the law. So you can outwardly refrain from murder, theft, coveting, etc, but (as Paul states in 1 Cor chapter 13) if agape isn't controlling your thoughts every good thing you do outwardly will be motivated by selfishness.

How? Go to Matthew 23:5 “Everything they do [i.e., their works...their law keeping] is done for men to see..." That's self-seeking...glory for me!

In other words they seem to be keeping the law, but in reality they are keeping sin. Any good deed you do better be motived by agape (which comes from the Spirit), or all your deeds are meaningless...they are filthy rags.

When you tell folks you better keep the law or else what are you appealing to:

1] Apage or

2] sin (the love of self).

Right, sin! Keeping the law to be saved is not keeping the law. It's keeping sin because you are motivated by self-seeking...i.e., hope of a reward or fear of hell.

You really need to re-think your theology. I suggest putting Joe Crews aside....

Rob

[Robert]

Quote:

Joe Crews was a fine subtle legalist.

I do have to disagree with you Rob. There was nothing subtle about it.

Pure legalism is salvation by law - salvation by being good.

Subtle legalism is teaching that we are saved partially by Christ and partially by our works.

Joe taught the latter.

Rob

[Woody]

Quote:

I suggest putting Joe Crews aside....

[Robert]

Agape - the fruit of the Spirit

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

Joe Crews was a fine subtle legalist.

I do have to disagree with you Rob. There was nothing subtle about it.

Pure legalism is salvation by law - salvation by being good.

Subtle legalism is teaching that we are saved partially by Christ and partially by our works.

Joe taught the latter.

Rob

Okay. I stand corrected. But there was nothing subtle about his subtle legalism.

[Marie]

Quote:

I think you're terribly, tragically mistaken to think that we must wait until something happens in the future before we can begin practicing this kind of connection and surrender. Those who wait for something to happen before they get totally connected or surrendered will not be ready for the coming of Christ. Now is the time to put that kind of faith into practice.

AMEN!!

If we took our blessed church alone and took a good look at it today, what we see will tell us in itself, that Jesus is Coming Soon. Because we have baptized first, and left changes for later, we now have many "in the church" who are teaching incorrect teachings, because those changes never did come about, either standard wise or in doctrine. I often wondered how things could get so bad as to deceive the very elect, but I sure see it today. When we get to understanding what this new teaching (old to many other churches) really involves, it runs so close and so deceptive that if people are just listening and believing without studying the Bible on it for themselves, they will not see it as wrong. We live in a time more than ever, that we must study for ourselves.

Today people are second guessing God's Prophet/Workers, Ellen White, Joe Crews, Doug Bachelor and others, and preferring to believe the beliefs of other churches instead of the true teachings of the Bible. I recall hearing often from Doug Bachelor, "Don't take my word for it, go to your Bible and understand it for yourself!" This is what we need to do. I stand behind these men, for they teach true Biblical Truth.

I am reminded of a Quote from Ellen White. She says that things will get much worse in the church. (She is talking last day events here) They will get so bad, she says, that we will be temped to leave. BUT HOLD ON, she says, hold on, for Jesus is Coming.

The tares (in the church) and the Wheat will be separated. We are to hold on and stay in the church. Friends, we have seen nothing yet. This is only the beginning. Let us all continue to Study and Pray that WE are not deceived.

[Robert]

Quote:

But there was nothing subtle about his subtle legalism.

teehe

[Woody]

Quote:

"Don't take my word for it, go to your Bible and understand it for yourself!"

This is why we can't take the word of Joe Crews etc. We have to go and study for ourselves and not take the word of "learned" men.

[Robert]

She says that things will get much worse in the church.

Check this out:

"There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic. The workings of Satan will be to unsettle the faith of the churches in them for this reason: Satan cannot have so clear a track to bring in his deceptions and bind up souls in his delusions if the warnings and reproofs and counsels of the spirit of God are heeded.” [1888, 794]

What do you think she is writing about? The spin I've always heard was with in reference to the law, but that's not the context. Here's the real context:

“....So effectually does this delusion take possession of heart and mind that the sharp arrows of the Lord fail to penetrate the armor of self righteousness in which they are encased. The spell is so strong that they will listen to the truth, the most earnest and powerful, even to the very portraying of the delusions which are upon them without any thought of self-examination to see if it means them. This is the class [i.e., the legalistic] our Saviour found most difficult to arouse. The most authoritative teachings were heard and listened to as if they heard not. Thus it is with many, many in this generation.

So there's the real issue. She's referring to legalism and self-righteousness (the sin of the Jews). Thus many, many SDA in this generation.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

Joe Crews was a fine subtle legalist.

I do have to disagree with you Rob. There was nothing subtle about it.

Pure legalism is salvation by law - salvation by being good.

Subtle legalism is teaching that we are saved partially by Christ and partially by our works.

Joe taught the latter.

Rob

That is an interpretation of what Joe Crews taught, and you are welcome to it if it's what you choose to believe, but I am sure he would not say, "We are saved partially by works of the law."

I have read quite a few things Joe Crews wrote and I don't recall his ever teaching that we are saved in any other way than by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I believe he believed that he was teaching in accordance with the gospel that Jesus, John, James and Paul taught. I believe if Crews were here, he would say he was only saying what James 2: 24 and Phil. 2:12, 13 and other such verses say.

There are verses in the Bible which show that people are judged by their works and that we will be rewarded according to our work. One cannot very well deny there is a relationship between our lives and salvation unless we are willing to deny that the Bible tells the truth about these things. Rev. 2: 23; Jer. 17: 10; 1 Peter 1: 6-8; 4: 12-19; Romans 2: 6, 16, etc. But to say this is not the same necessarily as saying that we are saved partially by works. Works of faith merely demonstrate whether our faith is genuine or not. They do not bring about justification or salvation. Rather they show whether we are really saved or whether our claim to believe in Christ is merely that, just a claim. God alone knows what our motivation is.

I am not defending everything that Joe Crews said or taught, but I do want to speak up in defense of Joe's overall ministry for God.

[John317]

Quote:

"Don't take my word for it, go to your Bible and understand it for yourself!"

This is why we can't take the word of Joe Crews etc. We have to go and study for ourselves and not take the word of "learned" men.

That is true. However, of course, that doesn't mean God doesn't use pastors and leaders. Their primary goal should be to get us to study for ourselves. Paul himself did not mind at all that the people would listen to him and then study the Scriptures to see if what he said was true. I sincerely doubt Joe Crews felt any different, so long as people were really seeking God and studying the Bible for the truth.

[Robert]

Look...I use to live and breath Joe Crews. I remember him stating that if Adventists continued to wear wedding bands that they would be lost. There were many, many other legalistic things that he said.

Because of his views I became a devil. I was so busy judging everyone and making my kids crazy (two of them left home before they turned 18 and the other one started doing drugs). I take full responsibility for being an idiot and not learning things for myself. If stoning had been legal back then I would have been the only one standing. Thank God that he had mercy on me.....

Rob

[Marie]

God does (and always has) used mankind to give His Truth.

Quote:

That is an interpretation of what Joe Crews taught, and you are welcome to it if it's what you choose to believe, but I am sure he would not say, "We are saved partially by works of the law."

As soon as someone says that we need to keep the law, then there are those who are there and ready to call them legalists. Such saddness that our people have become so blind. At this rate Jesus Himeself would have been a legalist.

Joe Crews taught that Jesus and Jesus only is our Salvation. But that does not give us excuss to not keep the law or to be lazy about getting ready for our Lord to come, and God forbid, that we should think that WE CAN'T GET READY. That is like a slap in the face to our Lord and Father; to think that we cannot overcome sin. For with Him all things are possible, even our being ready. Without Him it is not possible, but with Him it is more than possible, but it is not all His job, we need to be willing too and not be looking for loop holes to sin till His Coming.

[Woody]

Quote:

Because of his views I became a devil.

You too ... ??

[Woody]

You are right Marie. There is NO excuse for sin.

If we know Him as it is our privilege to know Him ... we will not sin.

[John317]

Look...I use to live and breath Joe Crews. I remember him stating that if Adventists continued to wear wedding bands that they would be lost. There were many, many other legalistic things that he said.

Because of his views I became a devil. I was so busy judging everyone and making my kids crazy (two of them left home before they turned 18 and the other one started doing drugs). I take full responsibility for being an idiot and not learning things for myself. If stoning had been legal back then I would have been the only one standing. Thank God that he had mercy me.....Rob

Is it possible that Joe Crews would not have condoned your judgmental behavior and attitude? Is it possible that your reaction was not due to Joe Crews theology but due to your particular view of it?

Remember there lots of people who have read or heard him who don't react the way you did.

I don't know what he taught about wedding bands. He may have thought like you say he did. However, the Bible says people will be lost if they continue certain behaviors, and I suppose there are those who would argue that is legalism, too. For instance, 1 Cor. 6: 9, 10 says that if a persons keeps doing those things that are listed, they won't be in God's kingdom. Jesus, of course, said the same thing.

I don't believe that if Joe Crews were here today he would say that merely the simple fact of wearing a wedding would keep a person out of heaven. It depends on if a person has been under the conviction of the Holy Spirit not to wear one, but then he goes ahead and wears it anyway. That disobedience to the Holy Spirit could lead to other disobedience. The general principle is, "To him who knows to do right, if he does it not, to him it is sin." And, "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

That is one way of looking at what Joe Crews was saying about wedding bands.

[Robert]

....that does not give us excuse to not keep the law

Look, the law in and of itself, is good. However, the law was never given for salvation purposes. The law was given to make sin exceedingly sinful.

Romans 3:10 as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one; ...12 There is none who does good, There is not even one.” ...19 Now we know that whatever the Law says [none righteous, none good], it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be shut (no defense), and all the world may become guilty before God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight;[why?] for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

The law points out the fact that there's no one good...no one righteous. To be under law means two things:

1] You must obey to get life, but

2] if you sin (even once) you must die.

The believer is no longer under law. It can't condemn him every time he fails. Why? We died to the law in the humanity of Christ. In Christ the law looks at us as we are "in Christ."

Yes, as our faith settles in Christ we begin to grow, but growth is not fulfilling the law. At best it's partial obedience. We fall short of God's selflessness....

So those that maintain we are saved partially by Christ and partially by what He does in us are teaching a subtle form of works. We are saved by Christ alone by what He did 2000 years ago. If we have Him by faith fruit will be seen....Some twenty -fold, some fifty...etc.

In the judgment this fruit will witness our faith, not our goodness. Otherwise none would make it...

Rob

[Robert]

The general principle is, "To him who knows to do right, if he does it not, to him it is sin."

1] That statement is lifted out of its context. Read the context.

2] If what you say is true, why do you practice the love of self?

Why your preoccupation with self? Why not live Christ's life (and He was so selfless that he didn't care about a roof over his head (i.e., ownership)). Everything He did was for others.

Besides, Paul says, "If we have food and clothing with this be content".

Why aren't you content? Please answer the question directly instead of asking a million in return. Why?

[Robert]

Here are 3 quotes from EGW:

Quote:

"All sin is selfishness."

Quote:

Selfishness girds many about as with iron bands. It is "my farm," "my goods," "my trade," "my merchandise."

Quote:

"Christ pleased not Himself." He did nothing for Himself; His work was in behalf of fallen man. Selfishness stood abashed in His presence.

Now, can you say the same of yourself? Please be very careful. Keep 1 John 1:8 in mind.

Rob

[Robert]

for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin (singular).

The law list sins (plural), but that's not it's main function. The main function is to point out "sin" (singular). That's where our problem is....Sin is a u-turn agape. Sin is selfishness - sin is the love of self.

Because by nature I love myself I'll compete against you in college. I want to be # 1 and so I must make better grades...I must attend a more prestigious school and on and on...What's the problem here? Self-love....

And if I can't compete against you I get disillusioned and drop out. Now what? I put a gun in your face and take your money. Why? Self-love.

One is acceptable in society and the other one isn't, but in the eyes of God's law both have one thing in common: Sin (singular).

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The general principle is, "To him who knows to do right, if he does it not, to him it is sin."

1] That statement is lifted out of its context. Read the context.

Here's the whole context. It is good to read the whole thing:

11 Don’t speak evil against each other, dear brothers and sisters. If you criticize and judge each other, then you are criticizing and judging God’s law. But your job is to obey the law, not to judge whether it applies to you. 12 God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to judge your neighbor?

13 Look here, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we are going to a certain town and will stay there a year. We will do business there and make a profit.” 14 How do you know what your life will be like tomorrow? Your life is like the morning fog—it’s here a little while, then it’s gone. 15 What you ought to say is, “If the Lord wants us to, we will live and do this or that.” 16 Otherwise you are boasting about your own plans, and all such boasting is evil.

17 Remember, it is sin to know what you ought to do and then not do it.

Another good translation:

11[My] brethren, do not speak evil about or accuse one another. He that maligns a brother or judges his brother is maligning and criticizing the Law and judging the Law. But if you judge the Law, you are not a practicer of the Law but a censor and judge [of it].

12One only is the Lawgiver and Judge Who is able to save and to destroy [the One Who has the absolute power of life and death]. [but you] who are you that [you presume to] pass judgment on your neighbor?

13Come now, you who say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a city and spend a year there and carry on our business and make money.

14Yet you do not know [the least thing] about what may happen tomorrow. What is the nature of your life? You are [really] but a wisp of vapor (a puff of smoke, a mist) that is visible for a little while and then disappears [into thin air].

15You ought instead to say, If the Lord is willing, we shall live and we shall do this or that [thing].

16But as it is, you boast [falsely] in your presumption and your self-conceit. All such boasting is wrong.

17So any person who knows what is right to do but does not do it, to him it is sin.

[Woody]

Quote:

I don't know what he taught about wedding bands.

He indicated on p.72 that it was a sin against the church.