Doug Bachelor's interpretations - part 2 - "The Rich Young Ruler"

[Woody]

Quote:

The point is that Satan is very clever and introduces sin in ways that make it seem as if it has no consequences and as if it is all so innocent.

Good Thought. And we are all in that situation to some degree. We ALL sin. We are ALL sinners. We ALL fall short. Praise God for His Grace and Mercy towards us sinners.

[Woody]

I know that I am coming late into this discussion....I have scanned the last 3 pages, and I am still amazed at the lack of one word in this discussion....

You guys talk a good game when it comes to sin, law, perfection and all the rules thereof.....but you guys forget, one concept that trumps sin, law, and perfection....

That word is grace....God's grace.....

and you boys are not adding that into your discussion...EGW's writings are full of grace, when you are looking for it...the writings are also full of perfection-ism as well, ...if you are looking for that.

There needs to be far more grace in our lives, gentlemen....

I was talking to a guy this past week...He mirrored something that I have been saying... mankind KNOWS it's guilty..some people know it better than others...what we need is hope that we are going to make it. Grace gives us that hope....

Good Point Neil. And Good Post.

[John317]

I know that I am coming late into this discussion....I have scanned the last 3 pages, and I am still amazed at the lack of one word in this discussion....

You guys talk a good game when it comes to sin, law, perfection and all the rules thereof.....but you guys forget, one concept that trumps sin, law, and perfection....

That word is grace....God's grace.....

and you boys are not adding that into your discussion...EGW's writings are full of grace, when you are looking for it...the writings are also full of perfection-ism as well, ...if you are looking for that.

There needs to be far more grace in our lives, gentlemen....

I was talking to a guy this past week...He mirrored something that I have been saying... mankind KNOWS it's guilty..some people know it better than others...what we need is hope that we are going to make it. Grace gives us that hope....

If you read my posts, you'll find they are full of God's grace. I write all the time about how God saves us from sin. That is, in fact, what all of my posts are concerned with. God saves us in order to heal us of the effects of sin. God's grace includes not only justifying us but also sanctifying us, that is, setting us apart as holy for his purposes. He says, "I am holy; therefore you must be holy." And so, as a manner of speaking, God may find us in the mud, fig, yet He loves us too much to leave us there. We look in the mirror of His law and see how sinful we are, then we find His grace in His cross, and He cleans us up as we walk daily with Him. He will certainly do it if we continue putting all our trust Him.

[Woody]

Quote:

" When the Father gave His Son to live and die for man, He placed all the treasures of heaven at our disposal. There is no excuse for sin. God has given us all the advantages He possibly could give, that we may have strength to withstand the temptations of the enemy." {TDG 318.3}

Therefore ... if we sin ... we are willfully sinning. In order to sin ... we have to willfully reject all this power that Ellen White is talking about.

[jasd]

QR frame:

Sin! Sin! Sin! ...even, sin, sin, sin...

Law: entole; nomos; commandments...; What!?

Good grief. Methinks, we all doth protest too much.

Sins great. Sins small. Sins in part. Sins done willfully. Sins practiced. Sins occasional. Sins of entrapment. Sins withstood, ‘cepting by the flesh. Sins, as Bravus notes, of omission. Sins we’d commit, excepting, we haven’t the opportunity. Sins unknown.

Coffee, tea, milk? mebbe, chocolate? howsabout, milk and sugar, together?

Good grief; sometimes it’s all just so much hanging chads.

As St Paul wrote, “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

And if Gd desires to enhance our poor fleshly selves with chains of gold and stones, why, just let us be thankful that Gd – blesses us.

That is not to say that we forget or disdain the less fortunate – invite them to potluck

[Marie]

The question is not IF we can, it is, "do we really want to?" If we really want to, God will give the Holy Spirit and the power to overcome, regardless of what it is. But we need to REALLY want to, and be willing and desiring the change.

Quote:

Acceptance and Love for each person where they are at. Give the Holy Spirit some time and they will be John317 clones. !!

All in fun. But I hope the point is made. We do have to be patient with those on their Christian Journey.

This is a good try to divert ones thinking from what was just stated before this post, but it is not what was talked about. It was not a issue about excepting these young people spoken of, the issue was how Satan uses the smallest negative change in Standards and takes it from there to go down hill farther and farther. When we believed in NO DRINKING, NO SMOKING, NO JEWELRY, NO MAKEUP, NO SHORTER DRESSES, ETC.... NONE, NOT SOME; then we were safe because it gave a solid guideline that people, especially the young, could not decide for themselves. None means none, not some or a lot. Safe. I cannot consider people safe today, without these solid guidelines to go by we will see our people get more and more worldly all the time.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

" When the Father gave His Son to live and die for man, He placed all the treasures of heaven at our disposal. There is no excuse for sin. God has given us all the advantages He possibly could give, that we may have strength to withstand the temptations of the enemy." {TDG 318.3}

Therefore ... if we sin ... we are willfully sinning. In order to sin ... we have to willfully reject all this power that Ellen White is talking about.

Not all sin is willful sin any more than all crime or all murder is willful murder. The Bible itself makes a clear distinction between sins of ignorance, or unintentional sins, and those sins that are deliberate and planned. Ellen White also makes the distinction.

See PP 419: " .. they were not chargeable with willful or deliberate sin; they had been overcome by a sudden temptation, and their contrition was immediate and heartfelt."

It is obvious that willful are the same as deliberate sin and this kind of sin is clearly distinguished from a sin that is committed because of one being having been "overcome by a sudden temptation," etc.

Another:

PP 409

The act of this man was a willful and deliberate violation of the fourth commandment--a sin, not of thoughtlessness or ignorance, but of presumption.

He was taken in the act and brought before Moses. It had already been declared that Sabbathbreaking should be punished with death, but it had not yet been revealed how the penalty was to be inflicted. The case was brought by Moses before the Lord, and the direction was given, "The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp." Numbers 15:35. The sins of blasphemy and willful Sabbathbreaking received the same punishment, being equally an expression of contempt for the authority of God.

========================

Finally this wonderful promise in Ellen White's writings:

The self-indulgent must be led to see and feel that great moral renovation is necessary if they would be men. God calls upon them to arouse and in the strength of Christ win back the God-given manhood that has been sacrificed through sinful indulgence.

Feeling the terrible power of temptation, the drawing of desire that leads to indulgence, many a man cries in despair, "I cannot resist evil." Tell him that he can, that he must resist. He may have been overcome again and again, but it need not be always thus. He is weak in moral power, controlled by the habits of a life of sin. His promises and resolutions are like ropes of sand. The knowledge of his broken promises and forfeited pledges weakens his confidence in his own sincerity and causes him to feel that God cannot accept him or work with his efforts. But he need not despair.

Those who put their trust in Christ are not to be enslaved by any hereditary or cultivated habit or tendency. Instead of being held in bondage to the lower nature, they are to rule every appetite and passion. God has not left us to battle with evil in our own finite strength. Whatever may be our inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong, we can overcome through the power that He is ready to impart.

The Power of the Will

The tempted one needs to understand the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man--the power of decision, of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will. Desires for goodness and purity are right, so far as they go; but if we stop here, they avail nothing. Many will go down to ruin while hoping and desiring to overcome their evil propensities. They do not yield the will to God. They do not choose to serve Him.

...... True reformation begins with soul cleansing. Our work for the fallen will achieve real success only as the grace of Christ reshapes the character and the soul is brought into living connection with God.

Christ lived a life of perfect obedience to God's law, and in this He set an example for every human being. The life that He lived in this world we are to live through His power and under His instruction. Ministry Of Healing, pp. 175-182.

[Robert]

Christ lived a life of perfect obedience to God's law, and in this He set an example for every human being.

And here everyone of us is miserably failing! None of us are living Christ's life of complete selflessness - none. Therefore none of us will make it to heaven by our works for the works fall short of what God's law demands.

Essentially the whole law is built on one verse: "You (speaking to sinners) shall love your neighbor as you love yourself." There's no self-love in agape and agape is the fulfillment of the law.

And I find in EGW's writing the same concept:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439]

Again, there's no self-love (selfishness of any kind) in agape.

Hopefully this will shut the mouths of the self-righteous. Instead of peaching law to us, keep the law yourself. Until then...zip it!

[John317]

Look at the Psalms and the rest of the Bible-- you never hear David or any of the other Bible writers saying, "I will always sin," etc.

On the contrary, you read things such as, "I will obey...," "I will keep Your statutes...," "I will keep your testimonies," "I will keep the commandments of my God," etc. (See Ps. 119.)

We need to put our emphasis where God's Word puts it, and copy Christ and the apostles and prophets as they copied Christ. You don't hear them talking about how they will always sin and never stop sinning until Christ comes.

If we say that to ourselves and that's what is in our mind, should it be any surprise if that is exactly what happens?

When I was a 5 year old kid, I broke my leg and had to learn how to walk all over again after being in traction for months. But I felt like I just could not learn to walk again. I was afraid it would hurt. I would say, "I can't," but every time I uttered those words of hopelessness, my cousin would stand in front of me and tell me, "Can't never did nothin'." He was right. I finally learned my lesson, began to think and say, "I will," and then it was not long before I was out riding my bike out on the sidewalk in front of our house. If I keep telling myself I can't obey God's commandments, it's almost certain I won't. Not because I really couldn't but because I persuaded myself-- or rather let Satan or other negative people persuade me-- that it is utterly hopeless. Well, guess what-- under those conditions, sure enough it is.

John said, "If any one sin," and NOT "when you sin," etc. Nor does the Bible anywhere say "You cannot stop sinning," or "you cannot possibly keep God's law even with God's Spirit."

It just dawned on me that I better remind you that I am NOT talking about obeying God's commandments absolutely perfectly and in order to earn God's favor or whatever. No, that is not what I have in mind at all. I'm just talking about obeying God because you want to bring glory to God and you know God doesn't get any glory from believers being defeated all the time.

It seems to me that you pay attention only to some passages of Ellen White that support your viewpoint, whereas if you would study all of her writings, you would see that there is great, great news there for people longing to overcome sin. Your friend, Jack Sequeira, talks about the power of Christ to keep believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit from falling. Take the promise of Jude 24 moment by moment. Believe it. God can't lie.

God isn't saying you won't be shown more sins to overcome. We will always have sins to overcome as long as we are in this world. God isn't expecting us to be sinless. That is not what it is all about. It is about taking baby steps, trusting Him all the while, not only trusting Him to forgive us if we sin, but having confidence that He provides power to resist and overcome those sins He has convicted us of. It's only a moment at a time. Take God at His word. Take the promises that He gives us through the writings of Ellen White, such as those I quoted in Ministry of Healing. They are true as God is true.

[Bravus]

No-one seems to have taken up the 'sins of omission' issue.

[John317]

True reformation begins with soul cleansing. Our work for the fallen will achieve real success only as the grace of Christ reshapes the character and the soul is brought into living connection with God.

Christ lived a life of perfect obedience to God's law, and in this He set an example for every human being. The life that He lived in this world we are to live through His power and under His instruction. Ministry Of Healing, pp. 182.

My experience and study lead me to believe that as Christ continues purifying us and healing our minds from the effects of things like drugs or immorality, the Holy Spirit is able to communicate better with us about what we need to do to correct the sins of omission. Often when a person first becomes a believer they are too immature to think of the sins of omission. They are usually still concentrating on the more "obvious" sins.

I think one of the problems is that we want everything to happen at once, but God doesn't work that way. We think if we are still committing sins or doing wrong or not showing love the way we know we should, it means we never can and that we will always be doing things the same way. But we need to get our eyes off ourselves and onto Christ and let Him direct our minds to other people's needs. It's a process, just like all sanctification is a process.

God works on the addition plan. One good thing leads to another. Check out 2 Peter 1: 5-11--

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[Bravus]

Great post, thanks.

[John317]

[Marie]

Quote:

I think you have hit on something there, our list of don'ts is way to short, should copy the Jewish list of Christ day...after all, it saved them....didn't it?

I was not talking about Salvation concerning High Standards, not directly anyway. Having high standards does not save us, but it does show where there heart is in most cases.

The Jews kept man made laws. Our Church was not given man made laws, but rather a High Standard of living that would save us from the woes of the world, given to us by the Lord. They were given to us to help us be happier, healthier people who, because of their High Standards, will shine for the Lord and help others to feel that we do indeed have something others do not. This opens the door to witnessing to many of God's love about what puts this peace on our face.

High Standards were a blessing and a gift that the Lord gave to us as His last day Church. We are not living the life as we used to, nether are we passing on this gift to our children, letting them do as they please. When they fall we pick them up and try and explain a way to help them not to fall again. Like, don't go that way, go this way instead. But with High Standards we don't seem to see a need to instill them in our children anymore. This blessing that God gave us has been, to a large part, laid aside.

Do the High Standards Save us? Of course not. But they save us from a lot of pain and suffering in this world, and they save us from looking and acting like the world, helping us look more like real Christians and helping us be healthy so we can be more of a blessing to others.

[Woody]

No-one seems to have taken up the 'sins of omission' issue.

ALL sins are 'willful'. If we know God as it is our privilege to know Him ... we will not sin period. And that includes ANY kind of sins ... omission or not omission. If we choose not to know Him ... we will have sins in our lives ... ALL kinds of sins. Omission and Non-Omission.

The choice is yours. You can get to know Christ or not. But as Ellen White says ... "There is NO excuse for sin." And I would add ... Omission or Non-Omission.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

No-one seems to have taken up the 'sins of omission' issue.

ALL sins are 'willful'....

Doesn't it appear on the basis of Hebrews 10:26 that all sins cannot possibly be willful? If all sins are "willful," it would just say "go on sinning," period, and not refer to "sinning willfully." See quote of verse below.

Is it not obvious, then, that it is making a clear distinction between willful sins and those sins that are not willful? Explain the text in such a way that it means all sins are willful sins. Remember that the book of Leviticus also makes a clear distinction between sins we deliberately and knowingly commit and those we do not know about until after they are pointed out to us. See, for instance, Lev. 5: 15, which refers to unintentional sins.

What is your definition of "willful"? Is it the definition that is found in the dictionary and that the courts refer to when they use it in such terms as "willful crime" in distinction to crime that is accidental or unintentional?

Is there such a thing as unintentional sins or sins of ignorance or sins that people commit without deliberately planning to commit them?

Hebrews 10:26

[ Christ or Judgment ] For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 10:25-27 (in Context) Hebrews 10 (Whole Chapter)

[rush4hire]

[color:#BF0000]Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

It's not so complicated.

Willful sin is where you sin and you don't feel bad about it, but you justify yourself, like in the example of Num. 15 where the man deliberately picks up sticks on the Sabbath. He is stoned to death because there is no hope of him ever repenting.

It's the same thing as presumptuous sin. It's the same as blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. It's the unpardonable sin.

When people say the Ten Commandments have been changed, they show themselves to be among the living dead. They cannot repent, but will forever harden their hearts and justify their sin. They are ripe for judgment:

[color:#BF0000]Josh. 11:19 There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all [other] they took in battle.

11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, [and] that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.

All of these had committed the unpardonable sin. All where living in willful sin. They blasphemed the Holy Ghost. They where willing to fight and die to defend their freedom to sin.

[color:#BF0000]1 Sam. 2:24 Nay, my sons; for [it is] no good report that I hear: ye make the LORD's people to transgress.

2:25 If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall entreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them.

There are more examples of people passing beyond the point of no return. They are reserved in chains of darkness for the judgment.

[color:#BF0000]2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

That's why we don't stone people to death anymore. Instead they are given over to strong delusion.

[color:#BF0000]2 Thes. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Be not discouraged if there are so many who don't receive your message of hope. There are many who can't receive it because they are sealed for destruction.

[color:#BF0000]Hebrews 10:31 [it is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[Taylor]

David deliberatly sinned by having his affair and he repented. Seems his sin would be considered more "serious than picking up sticks on the Sabbath"...or at least with more wide spread consequences..such as David's son died...such as it also included murder of the woman's husband in battle etc.

The ONLY sin God can't forgive is the unpardonable sin. The unpardonable sin is not a specific activity but a consistent walking away from God...a consiste saying.."I don't want to hear what you have for my life..get away from me." It is a sin that take time, not just a one event type of thing. The unpardonable sin isn't murder or Saul would have never made it to Paul. It isn't denying Christ or Peter would not have become the powerful wittness for Christ where 3,000 were baptized in one day. It isn't cheating and lying or Jacob would not have had God's favor..after lying to his father and cheating his brother out of the birth-right. Yes all these sins are serious and if they are not repented of..they will lead to a hardening of the heart...that soon does not hear the Holy Spirit's prompting and pleading.

The same sun that hardens clay melts wax. It depends what you are made of...it depends how you react to God pointing out sin in your life.

[Woody]

A Great Description of the Unpardonable Sin. Thanks.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

ALL sins are 'willful'....

Hebrews 10:26

This is talking about the rejection of Christ - the sin of unbelief.

[Robert]

David deliberatly sinned by having his affair and he repented. Seems his sin would be considered more "serious than picking up sticks on the Sabbath"...

Apparently David never under the law - under the terms of the old covenant, which are:

1] Obey and live,

2] Disobey and die.

Here's a fellow that was "under law":

Deut 21:18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Under grace (the opposite of being under law) David commits adultery and murders and the law doesn't touch him. Under law a man doesn't obey his parents and has a Bud light now and then and he gets death. I vote for grace....

[Taylor]

The Bible says "the wages of sin is death". But Jesus has stepped in and given forgiveness to anyone that will accept it. God's grace is always greater than our sin.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Hebrews 10:26

Quote:

This is talking about the rejection of Christ - the sin of unbelief.

Yes, but it is an illustration of the use of the word "willful," and shows that there are sins that are willful and sins that are not. Same with Leviticus which speaks of sins that are intentional and sins that are unintentional. Ellen White makes the same distinction over and over again. To say that all sin is willful is the same as saying all crime is willful. Confusion about these terms brings confusion to important Biblical concepts. It can cause people to see no difference between deliberately sinning and unintentional sins due to ignorance.

For instance, there is a big difference between deliberately breaking the Sabbath after we have studied the Sabbath and are convicted of its truth, and someone breaking the Sabbath without being aware that it is the Sabbath or not seeing its importance.

[John317]

Quote:

Deut 21:18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him' date=' 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Under grace (the opposite of being under law) David commits adultery and murders and the law doesn't touch him. Under law a man doesn't obey his parents and has a Bud light now and then and he gets death. I vote for grace....[/quote']

I agree that that is part of the effect of grace. But what else does grace mean? Does it only mean that we can commit crimes and not be punished for them?

I see grace as meaning that God finds us in the mud and cleans us up. The really great news is that Christ is a physician and heals us of our sin so we no longer have to go on sinning. This concept is summed up in Romans 8: 1-6 and in 1 John 3: 1-10. Being the sons of God, then, does not simply mean we don't die for our sins but we receive God's power to cease being a slave of sinful desires. It is not simply God's accounting us righteous but empowering us to live for Him.

[Robert]

John said, "If any one sin," and NOT "when you sin," etc.

Context:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin [i.e., the sin of self-righteousness]. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

What's the subject? If we say we have no sin [8] or we have not sinned [10]. Stating such is sin - it's the sin of unbelief.

What does EGW say to the self-deceived...the self-righteous?

"Not to see [that's deception] the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [R&H 9-25-1900]

So the "if we sin" is not saying if we break the law, which infers that one is perfectly fulfilling the law until that "if", but rather if we get self-righteous...if we get proud and think we are measuring up then it's time to repent.

You see Paul states that "all have sinned". This could refer to our past sins and/or our fall in Adam. But the next line, "and fall short of the glory of God", refers to falling short of God's goodness...His agape. It doesn't say some fall short, but rather all fall short.

Back to reality,

Rob