Doug Bachelor's interpretations - part 2 - "The Rich Young Ruler"

[John317]

There's certainly nothing wrong with attacking someone's idea or argument or evidence, but that is different from attacking the man and his work for God.

It's seems unfair to blame Joe Crews for the way you say you were at that time in your life. If that was the case, we could blame the Bible for a great deal of evil that has happened in the world. In fact, isn't that exactly what many people do? And this, despite the fact that Joe Crews would have counseled you against doing those things, and the Bible opposes and condemns all those evil things people do.

[John317]

Page 72 of what? I'd need to read the context of what Joe Crews was saying.

The truth is that there are lots of times when this sort of discussion about rules and so forth can be easily misunderstood. People understood Paul to mean something he didn't, and people have misunderstood James, also. There are those, as I said before, who think it is legalistic to say that people who practice the sins listed in 1 Cor. 6: 9,10 won't be in heaven. Yet it is not legalistic. What is legalistic is often not so much what someone is saying but how people understand what the other person is saying.

[John317]

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The general principle is, "To him who knows to do right, if he does it not, to him it is sin."

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JOHN3:17--The point of the above verse, like the one which says, "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin," is that God holds us responsible for the spiritual light we have. He holds me responsible for the sins I am convicted of. He does not hold me responsible for the sins that you are convicted of. In the same way, he does not hold you responsible for the sins I am convicted of. There are some sins that the Holy Spirit may convict me of, but you may not be convicted of that sin yet.

For instance, some people may be convicted that God wants them to keep the Sabbath. Or maybe they are convicted that God wants them to work on their evil temper.

The Holy Spirit doesn't work with everyone at the same pace.

There are sins of ignorance and sins of willfulness. They are all sins, but God does not treat all sins the same. God does not hold me responsible for sins that I am not even aware of. When we find out it is a sin, then we are held responsible if we don't confess it but keep stubbornly doing it. This principle also comes out in the book of Leviticus where it says people who committed sins of ignorance were required to offer a sacrifice once they realize their sin.

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ROBERT---If what you say is true, why do you practice the love of self?

Why your preoccupation with self? Why not live Christ's life (and He was so selfless that he didn't care about a roof over his head (i.e., ownership)). Everything He did was for others.

Besides, Paul says, "If we have food and clothing with this be content".

Why aren't you content? Please answer the question directly instead of asking a million in return. Why?

The same answer applies.

The point of the above verse, like the one which says, "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin," is that God holds us responsible for the spiritual light we have. He holds me responsible for the sins I am convicted of. He does not hold me responsible for the sins that you are convicted of. In the same way, he does not hold you responsible for the sins I am convicted of. There are some sins that the Holy Spirit may convict me of, but you may not be convicted of that sin yet.

I think this is one reason it's great to discuss these things with other Christians, because God can work through other Christians to point out sins that we need to work on.

You once brought up your belief that Christ wants all of us to sell all our possessions and give the money to the poor. The truth is that if you feel convicted that this is God's will, then it would be wrong for you to refuse to do it. But I don't understand the text to say that God wants me to sell everything and give the money to the poor, nor am I under the conviction by the Holy Spirit that this is what God wants me to do. If I was, and if I believed that is what the text is signifying to all Christians, then I would do it. Again, then, it is applying the principle, "To him who knows to do right, if he does it not, to him it is sin."

And:

James 4: 11 Don’t speak evil against each other, dear brothers and sisters. If you criticize and judge each other, then you are criticizing and judging God’s law. But your job is to obey the law, not to judge whether it applies to you. 12 God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to judge your neighbor?

[Kountzer]

Doug Batchelor is an important voice in this movement, but he'd be the first to tell someone that what he says is not the final say on anything.

[John317]

Doug Batchelor is an important voice in this movement, but he'd be the first to tell someone that what he says is not the final say on anything.

That's the truth. So would have Joe Cruz. It looks like even Paul did not mind at all that people would feel the need of verifying what he said by comparing his teachings to the Scriptures.

[Woody]

I'm not aware of any one who would not say this. But they can still preach legalism.

[Robert]

Here's the immediate context: "...16 All such boasting is evil. 17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins."

The context is "boasting". All boasting comes from the flesh...the ego. This includes sports...as in "my team is better than yours." So again, boasting is the context.

[Robert]

It's seems unfair to blame Joe Crews for the way you say you were at that time in your life.

Well, he taught the legalism and I bought into it. He and I were at fault. There...happy?

[melvin mccarty]

"Amazing Facts" were from the start usually amazing but sometimes questionable as far as "facts" go. They definitely were opinions and still are.

mel

[Robert]

There are some sins that the Holy Spirit may convict me of, but you may not be convicted of that sin yet.

[Robert]

God does not hold me responsible for sins that I am not even aware of.

There's no excuse in sinning! Isn't that what you say? Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Romans 2:12 All who have sinned without the law [i.e., a knowledge of the law] will also perish without the law , and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law....

You are either under grace or you are under law. I am under grace and any growth that comes from that is a result of my relationship with God. He doesn't give me a list of do's and don'ts....For He says, "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." But you subtle legalists...well, you do following:

"Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke [the demands of the law] that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” [Acts 15:10-11]

1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery [the demands of the law]. 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised [one of many demands], Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. [Gal 5:1-4]

[jasd]

QR frame:

Holy Writ has left us with no demonstration of his ever having exhibited agape love – towards either Gd or man; instead, there is evidence that he practiced a rather extreme form of selfishness and covetousness. He was without possessions to distribute. No baptism, no sacraments, no salvific tenets mentioned, guilty in all points of the law, etc.

Yet, a simple and desperate acknowledging appeal to Jesus Christ guaranteed his salvation; and, from the very lips of Gd - and upon his ‘confession’ - he entered Paradise that very day.

The thief on the cross: why has Holy Writ bequeathed such a unique portrait of salvation?

[John317]

Here's the immediate context: "...16 All such boasting is evil. 17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins."

The context is "boasting". All boasting comes from the flesh...the ego. This includes sports...as in "my team is better than yours." So again, boasting is the context.

Yes, the immediate context of verse 17 is boasting about the future, or forming plans for the future, when the reality is that life is uncertain. James is really reminding us that our lives should be totally surrendered to God at all times because only God knows what the future holds for us. So our boasting about plans for the future is foolishness and sinful.

Verse 17 takes up the same message that James wrote in 1: 23, 26, regarding those who are merely hearers of the word and not doers. He said the religion of such people is vain, or meaningless. For James, such faith is perverted, as he says in 2: 17, 20, 26.

Verse 17 addresses the issue of deliberate evasion of known duties. It is talking about not doing what we are convicted we should do. James says that is sin.

It is the same principle as found in Jesus parable of the talents in Matt. 25: 14-30, and in Luke 12: 47, 48; Romans 14: 23; and John 9: 41:

John 9: 41--- Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin. But since you keep saying you see, your guilt remains."

Luke 12: 47 If servants are not ready or willing to do what their master wants them to do, they will be beaten hard. 48 But servants who don't know what their master wants them to do will not be beaten so hard for doing wrong. If God has been generous with you, he will expect you to serve him well. But if he has been more than generous, he will expect you to serve him even better.

Romans 14: 23 But if you do have doubts about what you eat, you are going against your beliefs. And you know that is wrong, because anything you do against your beliefs is sin.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

God does not hold me responsible for sins that I am not even aware of.

There's no excuse in sinning! Isn't that what you say? Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Romans 2:12 All who have sinned without the law [i.e., a knowledge of the law] will also perish without the law , and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law....

Yes, of course, you are absolutely right: before the law, all stand equally condemned. That is for sure. In this, ignorance of law is absolutely no excuse.

However, it is also a clear principle of the Bible that God expects more of those who know truth than of those who are ignorant of truth, and He will judge us accordingly. He certainly requires more of us who have the privilege of knowing the beautiful Adventist message than he does of someone who has never been exposed to it and has never had the opportunity of knowing the Scriptures.

This same principle is found in Jesus parable of the talents in Matt. 25: 14-30; James 4: 17; Luke 12: 47, 48; Romans 14: 23; and John 9: 41:

John 9: 41--- Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin. But since you keep saying you see, your guilt remains."

Luke 12: 47 If servants are not ready or willing to do what their master wants them to do, they will be beaten hard. 48 But servants who don't know what their master wants them to do will not be beaten so hard for doing wrong. If God has been generous with you, he will expect you to serve him well. But if he has been more than generous, he will expect you to serve him even better.

Romans 14: 23 But if you do have doubts about what you eat, you are going against your beliefs. And you know that is wrong, because anything you do against your beliefs is sin.

[John317]

QR frame:

Holy Writ has left us with no demonstration of his ever having exhibited agape love – towards either Gd or man; instead, there is evidence that he practiced a rather extreme form of selfishness and covetousness. He was without possessions to distribute. No baptism, no sacraments, no salvific tenets mentioned, guilty in all points of the law, etc.

The repentant thief. Yes, true. I didn't at first know who you were speaking of.

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Yet, a simple and desperate acknowledging appeal to Jesus Christ guaranteed his salvation; and, from the very lips of Gd

Yes. That is what happens when we sincerely and honestly repent of our sins and have faith in Christ's promises. At that very moment we receive God's forgiveness.

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- and upon his ‘confession’ - he entered Paradise that very day.

This is not the consistent picture that God reveals to us about the condition of man in death, nor is it consistent with how the Hebrew and NT scriptures portray the nature of man. There is also the fact that the verse referred to may be translated as "today you will will be with in Paradise," or "This day I am telling you, you will be with me in Paradise." There was no punctuation in the original, and therefore the punctuation is determined by theology.

An important point to keep in mind is that here the thief is asking Jesus to remember him when Jesus "comes into His kingdom." But did Jesus "come into His kingdom" that same day or when He died? The Bible shows that Jesus comes into His kingdom when He returns for the church at the Second Coming. That is also when the resurrection occurs. (See Matt. 25: 24; 26:29; Mark 13: 26, 27; 14:25; Daniel 7: 13, 14, 27; Luke 22: 17, 18, 29, 30.)

The Hebrew concept of a living soul is that it consists of a body and the breath of God. It does not view man as having a conscious soul within a body as did the Greeks and Egyptians and others. Death is an unconscious sleep in the grave. The dead do not know anything-- that is, until the resurrection. Ecc. 9: 5, 10; Ps. 115: 17; 146:4.

Sunday morning Jesus told Mary that He had not yet ascended to His Father, and if we take into account what we know concerning the death of crucified criminals in Roman times, there is evidence that they usually suffered for two or three days before death. This accounts for Pontius Pilate's astonishment to hear that Jesus was already dead.

So the bottom line is that since death is an unconscious sleep, the thief will not be aware of the passing of time between death and the resurrection. That being the case, from the human viewpoint, it will be as if only a moment passes between our death and the moment we are raised to see Jesus, provided we remain faithful to Him.

To treat this topic completely as it deserves, we would need a separate thread. But I am sure that the subject has been already discussed exhaustively (if not exhaustingly!) elsewhere on the Forum several times before.

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The thief on the cross: why has Holy Writ bequeathed such a unique portrait of salvation?

I think it was at least partly in order to show that the gates of God's kingdom are open to those who, however undeserving they are, sincerely repent of their sins and place all of their faith in Christ and in His promises. It gives all of us great hope and assurance.

[Marie]

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He indicated on p.72 that it was a sin against the church.

I can see why He said this. Then it was not understood but he said it anyway because he was under the leading of the Holy Spirit. Today as we look back "with clear eyes" we can see the harm it has done to the church. Just a few:

1. Wearing wedding rings has opened the door for people wearing jewelry. Something we never did before.

2. It has been a real curse on the Church. Now when people look at us they see no differences. We dress so much like the world. It may have started with the wedding ring, but when that is allowed we have seen it advance to many other wrongs. Why aren't they being addressed? How can they be? We have opened the door to Jewelry, etc... with the wedding ring. Like David, how can we correct others when we allow part of the problem ourselves? So year after year we see more and more jewelry, lack of moral dress, etc.... Standards dropping more and more. The only way to do it as God intended is to lay off it all completely. God knew that one thing would lead to another. He always knows, that is why we should never question His reasoning.

3. How many people today can look at us, and just by our looks get the idea we could be Seventh-Day Adventists. (Same could be said of our actions) Used to be we could tell because there was a sure difference in the looks of the world and the looks of God's people, but not anymore. This is indeed a curse on God's Church.

In Christian Love,

Marie

[rush4hire]

I see some outrageous claims here:

I remember him stating that if Adventists continued to wear wedding bands that they would be lost.

[Woody]

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Ellen White might have had some coffee once in a great while ... But is that a sin?

Ellen White said drinking coffee was a sin. I guess SHE answered your question.

Some people promote a philosophy that you can do it just so long as it is not an addiction. But, Christ is able and willing to give us total victory over ALL sins. There is NO excuse for sin. All power is available for us to not sin. This includes the little sins.

[John317]

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He indicated on p.72 that it was a sin against the church.

I can see why He said this. Then it was not understood but he said it anyway because he was under the leading of the Holy Spirit. Today as we look back "with clear eyes" we can see the harm it has done to the church. Just a few:

1. Wearing wedding rings has opened the door for people wearing jewelry. Something we never did before.

2. It has been a real curse on the Church. Now when people look at us they see no differences.

The other day I was utterly shocked when I went to eat at a restaurant that serves Adventist kids from the school I used to attend. My father was the principal and my mother a teacher there. I was a student there when they first decided to change the rules so the students could wear their dresses above the knee, and then a little later when they decided to let the girls wear some lip-stick. I heard my parents talking about it.

So, then, the girls came into the restaurant and as soon as I saw them I almost fell over. The girls had not only large earrings in their ears but some had rings in their belly buttons. They also wore very short, tight pants. The boys themselves had rings in their lips, in their eyebrows, and in their ears. And they were listening to hip-hop with the b----, n--- and h--- words.

It all began so innocently. It was just a little thing. No big deal. Don't be so strict, they said. It's just a little change. After all, what difference does it make to our salvation? It didn't seem at the time to make any.

[Woody]

Acceptance and Love for each person where they are at. Give the Holy Spirit some time and they will be John317 clones. !!

All in fun. But I hope the point is made. We do have to be patient with those on their Christian Journey.

[rush4hire]

Ellen White said drinking coffee was a sin. I guess SHE answered your question.

[Bravus]

What about sins of omission? You can stop doing bad stuff (maybe), but can you be sure of doing all the good stuff that it's in your power to do at all times?

[John317]

Acceptance and Love for each person where they are at. Give the Holy Spirit some time and they will be John317 clones. !!

All in fun. But I hope the point is made. We do have to be patient with those on their Christian Journey.

The point is that Satan is very clever and introduces sin in ways that make it seem as if it has no consequences and as if it is all so innocent. A favorite technique of his is to get people to feel more interested in being popular than in doing what is right. They become more concerned with what others think than in what God thinks. Ever read C. S. Lewis' Screwtape Letters? That's one thing he writes of in that book.

[Neil D]

I know that I am coming late into this discussion....I have scanned the last 3 pages, and I am still amazed at the lack of one word in this discussion....

You guys talk a good game when it comes to sin, law, perfection and all the rules thereof.....but you guys forget, one concept that trumps sin, law, and perfection....

That word is grace....God's grace.....

and you boys are not adding that into your discussion...EGW's writings are full of grace, when you are looking for it...the writings are also full of perfection-ism as well, ...if you are looking for that.

There needs to be far more grace in our lives, gentlemen....

I was talking to a guy this past week...He mirrored something that I have been saying... mankind KNOWS it's guilty..some people know it better than others...what we need is hope that we are going to make it. Grace gives us that hope....

[Woody]

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" When the Father gave His Son to live and die for man, He placed all the treasures of heaven at our disposal. There is no excuse for sin. God has given us all the advantages He possibly could give, that we may have strength to withstand the temptations of the enemy." {TDG 318.3}