BibleShockers Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 >>>Are you saying then that you believe the Bible teaches that God wants the modern Jews to continue sacrificing animals? What "God wants" - according to the Bible - is for Jews to be damned by stumbling over their law - unwilling to give it up: Romans 9: 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Paul teaches that God is getting what he wants - unbelieving Jews, fitted for destruction. Paul teaches that the whole Mosaic covenant was an almost devious appendage to a faith-based covenant that God made with Abraham, intended to multiply transgressions and bring curses and death. But if you mean are modern Jews obligated to abide by all of the terms of the Mosaic covenant, then yes, they are. As are foolish Galatians and apparently, Seventh Day Adventists. So what do you think has changed for the Jews since the covenant was ratified? Were things added or removed? Of course, the OT has its own logic on these matters, as do Jews historically. Bill Ross Quote Bill Ross
Moderators John317 Posted August 14, 2008 Moderators Posted August 14, 2008 >>>...The Bible very definitely makes clear distinctions between the ceremonial laws, the moral laws and civil laws... Where? Bill Ross Study this Bible evidence prayerfully and carefully, Bill: The Moral and Ceremonial Laws 1. WHAT title of distinction is given the law of God? "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: but if ye have respect of persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." James 2:8,9. 2. By what law is the knowledge of sin? "I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Rom. 7:7. NOTE.-The law which says, "Thou shalt not covet" is the ten commandments. 3. By what are all men to be finally judged? "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man: For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Eccl. 12:13,14. "So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:12. NOTE.-The law which is here called " the law or liberty," is the law which says, "Do not commit adultery" and "Do not kill," for these commandments had just been quoted in the verse immediately preceding. In verse 8, this same law is styled "the royal law;" that is, the kingly law. This is the law by which men are to be judged. 4. What system was established on account of man's transgression of the law of God? The sacrificial system, with its rites and ceremonies pointing to Christ. 5. Why did the patriarch Job offer burnt offerings? "And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually." Job 1:4,5. 6. How early was this sacrificial system known? "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts." Heb. 11:4. See Gen. 4:3-5; 8:20. 7. By whom was the ten commandment law proclaimed? "And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. And He declared unto you H is covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone." Deut. 4:12,13. 8. How was the ceremonial law made known to Israel? "And the Lord called unto Moses, . . . saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering," etc. Lev. 1:1,2. "This is the law of the burnt offering, of the meat-offering, and of the sin-offering, and of the trespass-offering, and of the consecrations, and of the sacrifice of the peace-offering; which the Lord commanded Moses in mount Sinai, in the day that He commanded the children of Israel to offer their oblations unto the Lord, in the wilderness of Sinai." Lev. 7:37,38. 9. Were the ten commandments a distinct and complete law by themselves? "These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and He added no more. And He wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me." Deut. 5:22. "And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to Me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written." Ex. 24:12. 10. Was the ceremonial law a complete law in itself? "The law of commandments contained in ordinances." Eph. 2:15. 11. On what did God write the ten commandments? "And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone." Deut. 4:13. 12. In what were the laws or commandments respecting sacrifices and burnt offerings written? "And they removed the burnt offerings, that they might give according to the divisions of the families of the people, to offer unto the Lord, as it is written in the book of Moses." 2 Chron. 35:12. 13. Where were the ten commandments placed? "And he took and put the testimony into the ark, . . . and put the mercy-seat above upon the ark." Ex. 40:20. 14. Where did Moses command the Levites to put the book of the law which he had written? "Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God." Deut, 31:25,26. 15. What is the nature of the moral law? "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Ps. 19:7. "For we know that the law is spiritual." Rom. 7:14. 16. Could the offerings commanded by the ceremonial law satisfy or make perfect the conscience of the believer? "Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience." Heb. 9:9. 17. Until what time did the ceremonial law impose the service performed in the worldly sanctuary? "Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." Verse 10. 18. When was this time of reformation? "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Verses 11,12. 19. How did Christ's death affect the ceremonial law? "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross." Col. 2:14. "Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances." Eph. 2:15. 20. Why was the ceremonial law taken away? "For there is a disannulling of a foregoing commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness (for the law made nothing perfect), and a bringing in thereupon of a better hope, through which we draw nigh unto God." Heb. 7:18,19, R. V. 21. What miraculous event occurred at the death of Christ, signifying that the sacrificial system was forever at an end? "Jesus, when He had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom." Matt. 27:50,51. 22. In what words had the prophet Daniel foretold this? "And He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." Dan. 9:27. 23. How enduring is the moral law? "Concerning Thy testimonies, I have known of old that Thou hast founded them forever." Ps. 119:152. THE TWO LAWS CONTRASTED 1) The Moral Law The Ceremonial Law Is called the " royal law." James 2:8. The Ceremonial Law Is called " the law. . . contained in ordinances." Eph. 2:15. 2) The Moral Law Was spoken by God. Deut. 4:12,13. The Ceremonial Law Was spoken by Moses. Lev. 1:1-3. 3) The Moral Law Was written by God on tables of stone. Ex. 24:12. The Ceremonial Law Was "the handwriting of ordinances." Col. 2:14. 4) The Moral law Was written "with the finger of God." Ex. 31:18. The Ceremonial Law Was written by Moses in a book. 2 Chron. 35:12. 5) The Moral Law Was placed in the ark. Ex. 40:20 1 Kings 8:9; Heb. 9:4. The Ceremonial Law Was placed in the side of the ark. Deut. 31:24-26. 6) The Moral Law Is "perfect." Ps. 19:7. The Ceremonial Law "Made nothing perfect." Heb. 7:19. 7) The Moral Law Is to "stand fast forever and ever." Ps. 111:7,8. The Ceremonial Law Was nailed to the cross. Col. 2:14. 8) The Moral Law Was not destroyed by Christ. Matt. 5:17. The Ceremonial Law Was abolished by Christ. Eph. 2:15. 9) The Moral Law Was to be magnified by Christ. Isa. 42:21. The Ceremonial Law Was taken out of the way by Christ. Col. 2:14. 10) The Moral Law Gives knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20; 7:7. The Ceremonial Law Was instituted in consequence of sin. Leviticus 3-7 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 14, 2008 Moderators Posted August 14, 2008 >>>If the Ten Commandments did not pass away, then what did pass away? The shine on Moses' face, the ministry of death written in rocks (the ten commandments) and the "old covenant." But of course, the 10 commandments remain glorious to the Jews, the foolish Galatians and the Seventh Day Adventists. Seventh-day Adventist don't teach or believe that Old Covenant is glorious. And we also do not believe that justification-- or restoration of our relationship with God-- comes from obedience to the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments themselves are not the ministry of death. The ministry of death is the way the ancient Israelites related to the Ten Commandments. They believed that by obeying them they would obtain God's favor and salvation. That was not their purpose. So it was a misuse of the Ten Commandments. The only purpose of the Ten Commandments is to point out sin, to define it, and to show us to be sinners. They were never intended to save us from being sinners. Quote: Bill Ross---Paul, of course, refused to glory in it, but counted his conformity to the law as "[censored]": Phil 3: 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit [breath], and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 ¶ Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; ***touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless***. 7 ***But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ***. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, ***and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ***, 9 ¶ And be found in him, ***not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law***, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Ga 6: YLT 12 as many as are willing to make a good appearance in the flesh, these constrain you to be circumcised—only that for the cross of the Christ they may not be persecuted, 13 for ***neither do those circumcised themselves keep the law***, but they wish you to be circumcised, that in your flesh they may glory. 14 And for me, let it not be—to glory, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which to me the world hath been crucified, and I to the world; 15 for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation; 16 and as many as by this rule do walk—peace upon them, and kindness, and on the Israel of God! Yes, all of the above verses are quite true. Law obedience cannot possibly bring us righteousness or into a right relationship with God. Paul did not believe the law-- any law-- could bring justification with God. And he was right, of course. It is only through personal faith in and commitment to Jesus Christ that any man or woman may obtain justification and forgiveness and righteousness with God. Do you believe this is true? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleShockers Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 >>>What is sin? Sin is an evil alien that lives in human muscles (Rom 7). >>>The Old Covenant is not the Ten Commandments. No, the terms of the old covenant are 614 commands, of which the ten are ten. >>>The Old Covenant concerned the Ten Commandments. See Exodus 19: 1-8. The Ten Commandments are the legal basis of the Old Covenant. God made a promises concerning them, and the people accepted that promise and said they would obey them. That is the Old Covenant. It was ratified by the shedding of the blood of animals. Paul considered the ten commandments as part of the law: Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, ***except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet***. So when Paul says that the believer has "died to the law" it includes the ten commandments. Get real. Bill Ross Quote Bill Ross
Moderators John317 Posted August 14, 2008 Moderators Posted August 14, 2008 >>>What is sin? Sin is an evil alien that lives in human muscles (Rom 7). Is that all? How does the Bible define sin? Hint: 1 John 3: 4. What does that verse say sin is? For instance, Paul says in 1 Cor. 6: 9-10 that people who continue to commit certain kinds of actions will not be in God's kingdom? Are those kinds of actions sins? How do we know? Are you a sinner? What does the Bible say are the consequences of being a sinner apart from Jesus Christ? Is there any hope for those who reject God's Word and reject His only way of saving us? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 14, 2008 Moderators Posted August 14, 2008 >>>The Old Covenant concerned the Ten Commandments. See Exodus 19: 1-8. The Ten Commandments are the legal basis of the Old Covenant. God made a promises concerning them, and the people accepted that promise and said they would obey them. That is the Old Covenant. It was ratified by the shedding of the blood of animals. Paul considered the ten commandments as part of the law: Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, ***except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet***. So when Paul says that the believer has "died to the law" it includes the ten commandments. Get real. Bill Ross You misunderstand. Of course the Ten Commandments are part of the Torah, or law. And yes, I agree that when Paul says the believer has died to the law, this includes the Ten Commandments. Notice: the sinner dies to the law. Nowhere does it say the law died. Big difference, Bill. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 14, 2008 Moderators Posted August 14, 2008 >>>Are you saying then that you believe the Bible teaches that God wants the modern Jews to continue sacrificing animals? What "God wants" - according to the Bible - is for Jews to be damned by stumbling over their law - unwilling to give it up: Paul teaches that God is getting what he wants - unbelieving Jews, fitted for destruction... The Bible is very plain that God desires all people to be saved. 1 Tim. 2: 3, 4. So we may be absolutely certain that God does not WANT anyone to be lost. The Jews whom you are talking about chose to react to God in the way the did. You and I also choose to react the way we do. The Holy Spirit (for you, breath) works on our hearts and minds, but we have to choose to give Him permission to lead us. Rom. 8: 8. Quote: Paul teaches that the whole Mosaic covenant was an almost devious appendage to a faith-based covenant that God made with Abraham, intended to multiply transgressions and bring curses and death. Why did God do this? See Acts 7 and Exodus 32. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleShockers Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 >>>1. WHAT title of distinction is given the law of God? "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: but if ye have respect of persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." James 2:8,9. "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" is NOT one of the ten commandments! It is one of the TWO Great Commands. It is "royal" because Jesus is the king of the Jews and James was a Jew. >>>2. By what law is the knowledge of sin? "I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Rom. 7:7. NOTE.-The law which says, "Thou shalt not covet" is the ten commandments. Paul does not distinguish the 10 Commandments from any other commandment of the law. Your circular attempts at making them a separate law are blatantly devious. >>>3. By what are all men to be finally judged? "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man: For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Eccl. 12:13,14. According to Paul, Jews will be judged the their law while gentiles will be judged by conscience (Rom 2). >>>"So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:12. NOTE.-The law which is here called " the law or liberty," is the law which says, "Do not commit adultery" and "Do not kill," for these commandments had just been quoted in the verse immediately preceding. In verse 8, this same law is styled "the royal law;" that is, the kingly law. This is the law by which men are to be judged. This is the "perfect law - the one of liberty": Lu 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: And this: Mt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. We know that because James says so in the latter part of the same sentence: 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. >>>4. What system was established on account of man's transgression of the law of God? The sacrificial system, with its rites and ceremonies pointing to Christ. I really can't believe that you carry on conversations using a Biblical term like "the law of God" and assign it a new meaning. Note that the term is applied to Deuteronomy: Nehemiah 7:1 ¶ And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring **the book of the law of Moses**, which the LORD had commanded **to Israel**. Ne 8:8 So they read in the book in ***the law of God*** distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading. Ne 8:18 Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of ***the law of God***. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according unto the manner. Ne 10:28 And the rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the porters, the singers, the Nethinims, and all they that had separated themselves from the people of the lands unto ***the law of God***, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, every one having knowledge, and having understanding; Nehemiah 8:14 And they found written in the law which the LORD had commanded by Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month: Your use of the term "law of God" is not only unscriptural, it is clearly contra-scriptural. >>>5. Why did the patriarch Job offer burnt offerings? "And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually." Job 1:4,5. ? Point? >>>6. How early was this sacrificial system known? "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts." Heb. 11:4. See Gen. 4:3-5; 8:20. This was a gift. He offered a classier gift. It was just a gift. >>>7. By whom was the ten commandment law proclaimed? "And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone." Deut. 4:12,13. I thought you said in your last post that the ten commandments were not the covenant? Why were they in the Covenant Box?: Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, ***and the tables of the covenant***; >>>8. How was the ceremonial law made known to Israel? "And the Lord called unto Moses, . . . saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering," etc. Lev. 1:1,2. "This is the law of the burnt offering, of the meat-offering, and of the sin-offering, and of the trespass-offering, and of the consecrations, and of the sacrifice of the peace-offering; which the Lord commanded Moses in mount Sinai, in the day that He commanded the children of Israel to offer their oblations unto the Lord, in the wilderness of Sinai." Lev. 7:37,38. It appears to me that the Torah reserves to God and Moses to continue giving law that continues to be part of the covenant, possibly by the clause relating to the deputy that will lead them mentioned in Ex 23:20-23. This must be Moses. >>>9. Were the ten commandments a distinct and complete law by themselves? "These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and He added no more. And He wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me." Deut. 5:22. "And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to Me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written." Ex. 24:12. The reason given is that the people could not bear being so freaked out by the lightning and thunder going on in the background while Moses was acting as a mouthpiece, so they begged Moses to just tell them what God said: Exodus 20: 17 [God speaking through Moses] Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. 18 ¶ And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, ***they removed [mid-sentence], and stood afar off***. 19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. 20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not. 21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was. 22 ¶ And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven. 23 [and he goes on] Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold. >>>10. Was the ceremonial law a complete law in itself? "The law of commandments contained in ordinances." Eph. 2:15. It is only your unbridled imagination that limits this to the mythical "ceremonial law." In this context it clearly refers to ***the decrees given specifically to Israel, which made them distinct***, which includes the the law (including the ten commandments), the sabbath and circumcision. >>>11. On what did God write the ten commandments? "And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone." Deut. 4:13. Which Paul addresses specifically in 2 Cor 2 as the "ministry of death and condemnation" and "the old covenant" - the "letter that kills" and more generally as "the law." >>>12. In what were the laws or commandments respecting sacrifices and burnt offerings written? "And they removed the burnt offerings, that they might give according to the divisions of the families of the people, to offer unto the Lord, as it is written in the book of Moses." 2 Chron. 35:12. It is also referred to as "the law of God" in Nehemiah. >>>13. Where were the ten commandments placed? "And he took and put the testimony into the ark, . . . and put the mercy-seat above upon the ark." Ex. 40:20. They were referred to as "the tables [stone "scrolls"] of the covenant." Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; >>>14. Where did Moses command the Levites to put the book of the law which he had written? "Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God." Deut, 31:25,26. Ok. >>>15. What is the nature of the moral law? "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Ps. 19:7. "For we know that the law is spiritual." Rom. 7:14. The "law of the lord" is not just the 10: 2 Chron 31:3 He appointed also the king’s portion of his substance for the burnt offerings, to wit, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths, and for the new moons, and for the set feasts, as it is written in the law of the LORD. >>>16. Could the offerings commanded by the ceremonial law satisfy or make perfect the conscience of the believer? "Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience." Heb. 9:9. The point of Hebrews is that because the priest had to handle blood, he was always in contact with blood and death corpses and so was always unclean. This was a fault of the layout of the tabernacle. But Jesus shed his blood when he died (as cleansing for his own sins), but when he ascended to the moer perfect tabernacle, he did so untainted by death. >>>17. Until what time did the ceremonial law impose the service performed in the worldly sanctuary? "Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." Verse 10. In the previous verse, it said that it persisted even to the time that Hebrews was writing: YLT: 8 ¶ the Holy Spirit this evidencing that not yet hath been manifested the way of the holy places, the first tabernacle having yet a standing; 9 which is a simile in regard to the present time, in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered, which are not able, in regard to conscience, to make perfect him who is serving, 10 only in victuals, and drinks, and different baptisms, and fleshly ordinances—till the time of reformation imposed upon them. >>>18. When was this time of reformation? "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Verses 11,12. Note that it says that Jesus entered the holy place "on the basis of his own blood." This means he died to his sin, which enabled to enter, "having encountered everlasting release." The words "for us" were added by the "translators." >>>19. How did Christ's death affect the ceremonial law? "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross." Col. 2:14. "Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances." Eph. 2:15. In these figures, the law is destroyed. But what Paul is referring to is that the believer has been freed from the law. >>>20. Why was the ceremonial law taken away? "For there is a disannulling of a foregoing commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness (for the law made nothing perfect), and a bringing in thereupon of a better hope, through which we draw nigh unto God." Heb. 7:18,19, R. V. I could be wrong (I mentioned that this is an area in which I lack expertise, though I have given it some thought) but it seems to me that what Hebrews is saying is that the Aaronic priesthood was bypassed because it would not have served, rather thant that the covenant was modified. At the very least, such an alteration would be a serious Biblical snafu: Ps 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man‘s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, ***no man disannulleth*** [the verbal form of the same word], or addeth thereto. >>>21. What miraculous event occurred at the death of Christ, signifying that the sacrificial system was forever at an end? "Jesus, when He had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom." Matt. 27:50,51. Any idea what this means?: Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; >>>22. In what words had the prophet Daniel foretold this? "And He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." Dan. 9:27. Outside of my expertise. >>>23. How enduring is the moral law? "Concerning Thy testimonies, I have known of old that Thou hast founded them forever." Ps. 119:152. This is not just about the bogus "moral law" but about the whole law, which is, according to Jesus, an inviolable unity: Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. I think I'll pass on this next section as it just restates this section, which I have demonstrated to be phony. Bill Ross Quote Bill Ross
BibleShockers Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 >>>Seventh-day Adventist don't teach or believe that Old Covenant is glorious. Someone spoke of Jesus "magnfiying the law." The law is the terms of the old covenant. >>>And we also do not believe that justification-- or restoration of our relationship with God-- comes from obedience to the Ten Commandments. Well, you seem to believe that the Christian is under the 10 commandments, that failure to say keep Sabbath is therefore sin and Christians don't sin, etc. You also say that man will be judged by this "law of liberty" (that Paul calls bondage). Say what you mean and mean what you say. >>>The Ten Commandments themselves are not the ministry of death. The ministry of death is the way the ancient Israelites related to the Ten Commandments. Will men be judged by the 10? I can't keep up with this wangling. >>>They believed that by obeying them they would obtain God's favor and salvation. That was not their purpose. So it was a misuse of the Ten Commandments. The only purpose of the Ten Commandments is to point out sin, to define it, and to show us to be sinners. They were never intended to save us from being sinners. Will men be judged by the 10? What say you? Bill Ross Quote Bill Ross
BibleShockers Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 >>>Why did God do this? See Acts 7 and Exodus 32. Because if you are going to pick on someone, everyone's first choice is the Jews! I think you are saying that "they deserved it" but if they were given these laws that said "do these and live" and such, and they were told that if they offered atonement then their sins would be forgiven, and yet the whole thing was an elaborate sham just to set things up for Christians (while they would be hardened), then I would say that God is a pretty nasty dude. Bill Ross Quote Bill Ross
Moderators John317 Posted August 14, 2008 Moderators Posted August 14, 2008 >>>Why did God do this? See Acts 7 and Exodus 32. Because if you are going to pick on someone, everyone's first choice is the Jews! I think you are saying that "they deserved it" but if they were given these laws that said "do these and live" and such, and they were told that if they offered atonement then their sins would be forgiven, and yet the whole thing was an elaborate sham just to set things up for Christians (while they would be hardened), then I would say that God is a pretty nasty dude. Bill Ross No, the Jews didn't "deserve" it any more than anyone else. It's not a matter of picking on anyone-- it's a matter of understanding what the Bible says regarding God's revelation and how God has dealt with humanity. In this case, why did God give the ceremonial laws, related to the sacrifices, etc.? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 14, 2008 Moderators Posted August 14, 2008 >>>1. WHAT title of distinction is given the law of God?"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: but if ye have respect of persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." James 2:8,9. "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" is NOT one of the ten commandments! It is one of the TWO Great Commands. It is "royal" because Jesus is the king of the Jews and James was a Jew. The moral law, the Ten Commandments, define and point out sin. They were given for that reason, to make sin obvious as a transgression. That is why the Bible defines sin as transgression of the law-- or lawlessness. People offered sacrifices because or when they transgressed the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments are the moral standard. The legal standard in this country is the federal constitution and state constitutions, etc. As citizens, we are convicted by the law as transgressors when we violate the state laws. The kingdom of God also has a legal standard, and that is the Ten Commandments. When we violate them, we commit sin. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 14, 2008 Moderators Posted August 14, 2008 >>>Seventh-day Adventist don't teach or believe that Old Covenant is glorious. Someone spoke of Jesus "magnfiying the law." The law is the terms of the old covenant. >>>And we also do not believe that justification-- or restoration of our relationship with God-- comes from obedience to the Ten Commandments. Well, you seem to believe that the Christian is under the 10 commandments, that failure to say keep Sabbath is therefore sin and Christians don't sin, etc. You also say that man will be judged by this "law of liberty" (that Paul calls bondage). Say what you mean and mean what you say. >>>The Ten Commandments themselves are not the ministry of death. The ministry of death is the way the ancient Israelites related to the Ten Commandments. Will men be judged by the 10? I can't keep up with this wangling. >>>They believed that by obeying them they would obtain God's favor and salvation. That was not their purpose. So it was a misuse of the Ten Commandments. The only purpose of the Ten Commandments is to point out sin, to define it, and to show us to be sinners. They were never intended to save us from being sinners. Will men be judged by the 10? What say you? Bill Ross I think these verses will give you the answer: The Law of God in the New Testament 1. BY what means did the Jews know God's will? "Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, and knowest His will,... being instructed out of the law." Rom. 2:17,18. 2. What did they have in the law? "Which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law." Verse 20. NOTE.-The written law presents the form of knowledge and of the truth. Grace and truth, or grace and the reality or realization of that which the written law demands, came by Jesus Christ. He was the law in life and action. 3. What did Jesus say of His attitude toward the law? "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matt. 5:17. NOTE.-By the expression "the law" here is meant the five books of Moses; and by "the prophets," the writings of the prophets. Christ did not come to set aside or to destroy either of these, but to fulfil both. The ceremonialism of types and shadows contained in the books written by Moses He fulfilled by meeting them as their great Antitype. The moral law, the great basic fabric underlying all of Moses' writings Christ fulfilled by a life of perfect obedience to all its requirements. The prophets He fulfilled in His advent as the Messiah, Prophet, Teacher, and Saviour foretold by them. 4. What did He teach concerning the stability of the law? "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Verse 18. 5. In what instruction did He emphasize the importance of keeping the law? "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Verse 19. 6. What did Christ tell the rich young man to do in order to enter into life? "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matt. 19:17. 7. When asked which commandments, what did Jesus say? "Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Verses 18,19. NOTE.-While not quoting all of the ten commandments, Jesus quoted sufficient of them to show that He referred to the moral law. In quoting the second great commandment He called attention to the great principle underlying the second table of the law,-love to one's neighbor,-which the rich young man, in his covetousness, was not keeping. 8. Does faith render the law void? "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Rom. 3:31. 9. How is the law fulfilled? "Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment [touching our duty to our fellow men], it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Rom. 13:8-10. 10. What is of more importance than any outward ceremony? "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God." 1 Cor. 7:19. 11. What kind of mind is not subject to the law of God? "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Rom. 8:7. 12. What proves that the law is an undivided whole? "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For He that said [margin, that law which said], Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:10-12. 13. How is sin defined? "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4. 14. How may we know that we love the children of God? "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His commandments." 1 John 5:2. 15. What is the love of God declared to be? "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." Verse 3. 16. How is the church of the last days described? "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Rev. 12:17; 14:12. How blest the children of the Lord, Who, walking in His sight, Make all the precepts of His Word Their study and delight! What precious wealth shall be their dower, Which cannot know decay; Which moth and rust shall ne'er devour, Or spoiler take away. HARRIET AUBER. Love the Fulfilling of the Law "If the love of god is shed abroad in your heart," says Mr. Moody, "you will be able to fulfil the law." Paul reduces the commandments to one: "Thou shalt love," and says that "love is the fulfilling of the law." This truth may be demonstrated thus:- 1. Love to God will admit no other god. 2. Love will not debase the object it adores. 3. Love to God will never dishonor His name. 4. Love to God will reverence His day. 5. Love to parents will honor them. 6. Hate, not love, commits adultery. 7. Lust, not love, commits adultery. 8. Love will give, but never steal. 9. Love will not slander nor lie. 10. Love's eye is not covetous. Principles Underlying the Ten Commandments 1. Faith and loyalty. Heb. 11:6; Matt. 4:8-10. 2. Worship. Jer. 10:10-12; Ps. 115:3-8; Rev. 14:6,7. 3. Reverence. Ps. 111:9; 89:7; Heb. 12:28; 2 Tim. 2:19. 4. Holiness, or sanctification, and consecration. 1 Peter 1:15,16; Heb. 12:14; Ex. 31:13; Eze. 20:12; 1 Cor. 1:30; Prob. 3:6. 5. Obedience, or respect for authority. Eph. 6:1-3; Col. 3:20; 2 Kings 2:23,24. 6. Love. Lev. 19:17; 1 John 3:15; Matt. 5:21-26, 43-48. 7. Purity. Matt. 5:8; Eph. 5:3,4; Col. 3:5,6; 1 Tim. 5:22; 1 Peter 2:11. 8. Honesty. Rom. 12:17; Eph. 4:28; 2 Thess. 3:10-12. 9. Truthfulness. Eph. 4:25; Col. 3:9; Prov. 6:16-19; 12:19; Rev. 21:27; 22:15. 10. Contentment and unselfishness. Eph. 5:5; Col. 3:5; 1 Tim. 6:6-11; Heb. 13:5. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 14, 2008 Moderators Posted August 14, 2008 Here are important Bible teachings on the Judgment and I hope they will help answer your question regarding the role of the law in that judgment. Please let me know if you have further questions about that. The Judgment 1. WHAT assurance have we that there will be a judgment? "God. . . hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world." Acts 17:30,31. 2. Was the judgment still future in Paul's day? "As he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled." Acts 24:25. 3. How many must meet the test of the judgment? "I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked." Eccl. 3:17. "For we must all appear before the judgment-seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." 2 Cor. 5:10. 4. What reason did Solomon give for urging all to fear God and keep His commandments? "For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Eccl. 12:14. 5. What view of the judgment scene was given Daniel? "I beheld till the thrones were cast down [placed, R.V.], and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool: His throne was like the fiery flame, and His wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened." Dan. 7:9,10. 6. Out of what will all be judged? "And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Rev. 20:12. 7. For whom has a book of remembrance been written? "Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord harkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon His name." Mal. 3:16. See Rev. 20:12. 8. Who opens the judgment and presides over it? "I beheld till the thrones were cast down [placed], and the Ancient of days did sit." Dan. 7:9. 9. Who minister to God, and assist in the judgment? "Thousand thousands [of angels] ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him." Verse 10. See Rev. 5:11. 10. Who is brought before the Father at this time? "I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him." Dan. 7:13. 11. What does Christ as the advocate of His people confess before the Father and His angels? "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels." Rev. 3:5. See Matt. 10:32,33; Mark 8:38. NOTE.-During this judgment scene, both the righteous and the wicked dead are still in their graves. The record of each one's life, however, is in the books of heaven, and by that record their characters and deeds are well known. Christ is there to appear in behalf of those who have chosen Him as their advocate. 1 John 2:1. He presents His blood, as He appeals for their sins to be blotted from the books of record. As the place of judgment is in heaven, where God's throne is, and as Christ is present in person, it follows that the work of judgment is also in heaven. All are judged by the record of their lives, and thus answer for the deeds done in the body. This work will not only decide forever the cases of the dead, but will also close the probation of all who are living, after which Christ will come to take to Himself those who have been found loyal to Him. 12. After the subjects of the kingdom have been determined by the investigative judgment, what is given to Christ? "And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him." Dan. 7:14. 13. When He comes the second time, what title will He bear? "And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, King of kings, and Lord of lords." Rev. 19:16. 14. What will He then do for each one? "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works." Matt. 16:27. See also Rev. 22:12. 15. Where will Christ then take His people? "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." John 14:2,3. 16. How many of the dead will be raised? "For the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28,29. See also Acts 24:15. 17. What time intervenes between the two resurrections? "And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Rev. 20:4,5. 18. What work did Daniel see finally assigned to the saints? "I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." Dan. 7:21,22. 19. How long will the saints engage in this work of judgment? "I And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: . . . and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Rev. 20:4. 20. Who will thus be judged by the saints? "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" 1 Cor. 6:2,3. 21. How will the decisions of the judgment be executed? "And out of His [Christ's] mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the wine-press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." Rev. 19:15. 22. Why is the execution of the judgment given to Christ? "For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself; and hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man." John 5:26,27. 23. How was the opening of the judgment to be made known to the world? "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come." Rev. 14:6,7. NOTE.-There are three phases of the judgment mentioned in the Scriptures,-the investigative judgment, preceding the second advent; the judgment of the lost world and wicked angels by Christ and the saints during the one thousand years following the second advent; and the executive judgment, or punishment of the wicked at the close of this period. The investigative judgment takes place in heaven before Christ comes, in order to ascertain who are worthy to be raised in the first resurrection, at His coming, and who among the living are to be changed in the twinkling of an eye, at the sound of the last trump. It is necessary for this to take place before the second advent, as there will be no time for such a work between the coming of Christ and the raising of the righteous dead. The executive Judgment on the wicked occurs after their cases have been examined by the saints during the thousand years. Rev. 20:4,5; 1 Cor. 6:1-3. The investigative judgment is that which is announced to the world by the angel's message of Rev. 14:6,7. Thou Judge of quick and dead, Before whose bar severe, With holy joy or guilty dread, We all shall soon appear,- Our cautioned souls prepare For that tremendous day, And fill us now with watchful care, And stir us up to pray. CHARLES WESLEY. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleShockers Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 >>>The moral law, the Ten Commandments, Look, do me a HUGE favor and don't annoy me by using the unscriptural term "moral law." All you do is attempt to superimpose your presupposition onto the text. If you mean "the ten commandments" or "ten sayings" (which is the scriptural designation of these 10 commands), then say "the 10 commandments. >>>define and point out sin. You never tire of repeating your dogmas. What about conscience? What about the breath? What about parables and prophets? What about things like "don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? I mean, Adam transgressed that command and sin entered the world while the 10 commands were not given for thousands of years more. Your worship of these sayings is unbridled. You can't see the forest for a few trees. Did Pharaoh get a sneak preview of the 10?: Ex 9:27 And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked. You are an intelligent person yet you stubbornly repeat a dogma that is so plainly idiotic! It is utter nonsense, refuted on every page of scripture and good sense: Romans 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. >>>They were given for that reason, to make sin obvious as a transgression. No, to turn sins into transgressions. Sin was already in the world, but they were not transgressions of any law that had jurisdiction. So by putting the Jews under the yoke of the law, their sins became transgressions. Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence [transgression] might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: >>>That is why the Bible defines sin as transgression of the law-- or lawlessness. That is a KJV-ism. A bad translation. Get an updated Bible or a decent lexicon. The KJV reading is WRONG. >>>People offered sacrifices because or when they transgressed the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments are the moral standard. The legal standard in this country is the federal constitution and state constitutions, etc. The ten commandments are laws only of the Jews. >>>As citizens, we are convicted by the law as transgressors when we violate the state laws. The kingdom of God also has a legal standard, and that is the Ten Commandments. When we violate them, we commit sin. No, the kingdom of Israel was under the 614. The kingdom of God is not. Please do not use the term "moral law" or "law of God" in future posts where what you mean is the ten commandments. Just say "the ten commandments." Otherwise you are "begging the question" ala "So do you still beat your wife?" Bill Ross Quote Bill Ross
BibleShockers Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 >>>...In this case, why did God give the ceremonial laws, related to the sacrifices, etc.? How about if you do the typing and tell me! But I will say this, that I think Paul's take on the Jews is pretty perverted. Bill Ross Quote Bill Ross
BibleShockers Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 Bill: Will men be judged by the 10? What say you? John317: I think these verses will give you the answer: Um, can you just answer with a yes or no? I've addressed these verses many times so far. You just keep repeating your shabby positions after they have been refuted. Since you said both that men will be judged by the 10 and that they will not, I am just looking for a tie-breaker, not a reprint of SDA dogmas. Yes or no? Bill Ross Quote Bill Ross
Moderators John317 Posted August 14, 2008 Moderators Posted August 14, 2008 JOHN3:17-- >>>The moral law, the Ten Commandments, Quote: BILL ROSS-- Look, do me a HUGE favor and don't annoy me by using the unscriptural term "moral law." All you do is attempt to superimpose your presupposition onto the text. If you mean "the ten commandments" or "ten sayings" (which is the scriptural designation of these 10 commands), then say "the 10 commandments. I certainly do not use this term to annoy anyone. It is a common term in discussions and writings on the Bible. You cannot open a text in systematic theology without coming across it frequently. Any time ethics comes up in a Christian context, you will hear it at the center of the discussion. It is how Bible believing Christians determine what is right and wrong. Do I also get to tell you what to say and what words and expressions to use? How about if I tell you to do me a big favor and stop using the unscriptural term, "the breath"? Remember that the Greek word, pneuma, can be properly and accurately translated as "breath," "wind," or "spirit." When in reference to tou hagiou pneumatos, as in Matt. 28: 29, it is never translated by the words "the holy breath." That would not make any sense, nor would it make sense to anyone who has studied the topic to translate it as "the holy wind." In all of my 65+ translations of the Scriptures, I do not know of a single translations that gives it that reading. Nor do any of the Greek dictionaries or Greek-English Lexicons refer to it under that name. It is always "the Holy Ghost" (old style) or "the Holy Spirit." You see, it doesn't help the exchanges if we tell people what to say or how to use terms. We may explain our view of those terms, etc., but it is not helpful in dialoging to tell people to stop using words in a way that they are convinced is accurate and true. There is a reason for using the term "Moral Law" in the place of the Ten Commandments, even though the Ten Commandments do summarize God's Moral Law. One of the reasons theologians and students and writers use "the Moral Law" so often is that there are other commandments of God that are part of His Moral Law. In other words, Moral Law and Ten Commandments is not always synonymous. For instance, one of God's moral commandments is a prohibition against having sex with beasts. While that is also covered in the Ten Commandments when they are correctly understood, God added the clear prohibition in order minimize the misunderstanding on that point. For the same reason, God added many other particular details, so people would understand clearly what was meant. >>>define and point out sin. Quote: BILL ROSS-- You never tire of repeating your dogmas. What about conscience? Ever heard of a lying conscience? How about an uneducated or badly trained conscience? Consciences can be made to tell people something is OK when it is not. I used to think that lots of things were OK which I now know God's Word says are wrong. That is why the conscience is not a dependable guide, apart from the word of God. For instance, see 1 Tim. 4: 2. Does this make sense to you? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleShockers Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 >>>How about if I tell you to do me a big favor and stop using the unscriptural term, "the breath"? "The moral law" is not a scriptural term, but "breath" is. But I supply the KJV or LXXe or YLT and put my clarification in [brackets] to show that how I understand it. But you refer to "God's law in the New Testament" and it is not clear what your current referent is. Are you referring to the "moral law?" Sometimes. "The law of Moses" - sometimes. "The ceremonial, civil or other invented terms? Sometimes. It is a useless term. If you ever have any question as to what my referent is, just ask. If you have any doubt that either RUACH or PNEUMA are Hebrew and Greek terms that mean "breath" let me know. But there is no justification for referring to a scriptural term in several, mostly unscriptural, ways and expecting someone to be able to interact with your statements. If you said "Paul affirmed the men of Judah" but that term sometimes meant to yourself - five different things and meant something else to me, how far would we get? I can assure you that I had no idea that you were using the term "the moral law" other than your moniker for the ten commandments. You could have fooled me. You certainly SEEMED to be saying that! But NOW you say that what your referent is is "any command that relates to "morals," yes? What is wrong with the term "laws relating to morality?" And are these "morality laws" identified ANYWHERE besides inside your mind? >>>You see, it doesn't help the exchanges if we tell people what to say or how to use terms. There are legitimate ways to use terms. You can't just use them to suit your immediate needs and wants. >>>We may explain our view of those terms, etc., but it is not helpful in dialoging to tell people to stop using words in a way that they are convinced is accurate and true. You have heaped up terms: "moral law" "ceremonial law" "civil law" "law of God" "God's law" "the law" "royal law" "law of liberty"... and your usage is neither consistent, objectively defined nor scriptural, as I have shown. You recently wrote: "The first 4 commandments in the moral law (which law was the only things that God wrote and spoke Himself) deal with our relationship to God, as in "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, etc." The idea is, Bill, that if we really do love God with all of our hearts, we will obey all the first four of the moral law. They all go together, like a chain. If you break one, you break all of them. Just like James says in James 2: 8-12. The last 6 commandments in the moral law are summed up in the command to love our fellow-humans. In other words, if we really love our neighbor, we will keep all 6 of those commandments. For instance, if I love my neighbor, I won't steal from him or kill him or have sex with his wife or her husband. I will be honest, etc. It sounds a WHOLE LOT like you said that the moral law consists of ten (not two and not 614) commands. >>>There is a reason for using the term "Moral Law" in the place of the Ten Commandments, even though the Ten Commandments do summarize God's Moral Law. One of the reasons theologians and students and writers use "the Moral Law" so often is that there are other commandments of God that are part of His Moral Law. In other words, Moral Law and Ten Commandments is not always synonymous. Well may I make a suggestion? When you mean "the 10 commandments" say "the 10 commandments." When you mean "laws about morals" say "laws about morals." Using one term for two different things is inherently confusing - the opposite of "rightly dividing." >>>For instance, one of God's moral commandments is a prohibition against having sex with beasts. This must be why I have trouble getting dates with Jewish girls. >>>While that is also covered in the Ten Commandments when they are correctly understood, God added the clear prohibition in order make sure could be no misunderstanding on that point. So where does this prohibition appear in the ten commandments? I don't see it? And if this prohibition is actually part of the moral law, then why have you been saying that the moral law is summed up in the 10 commandments? What confusion, which is sometimes called "the Moral Law" but not always - just when you feel like it - so check with you before we try to figure out what the hay you mean... >>>For the same reason, God added many other particular details, so people would understand clearly what was meant. Ah! I do like it when people make an effor to be clearly understood! But if he wanted to be understood that there were several laws, several names for those laws, several ways of referring to the same thing, and several meanings for the same terms... shouldn't he have kind of cleared that up? If the law is a trinity, say "my law is a trinity." If God is a trinity, say "I am a trinity." But maybe God wanted to confuse the hay out of us by speaking of only one law, and one God? >>>Ever heard of a lying conscience? Not in the Bible. >>>How about an uneducated or trained conscience? Nope. Not in the Bible. >>>Consciences can be made to tell people something is OK when it is not. That is why the conscience is not a dependable guide, apart from the word of God. For instance, see 1 Tim. 4: 2. A "seared" conscience is a Biblical term but suggests that the conscience was silenced by intentional abuse. But Paul is explicit that people who do not have the Torah nevertheless have no excuse because of their conscience which acts like a law in and of itself: 2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. Ro 2:15 Which shew the work [operation] of the law [that is] written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) So YOU are without excuse for insisting that the sayings of the law of Moses that pertain to morality are some kind of distinct and separate body called "the Moral Law." Does a gentile who's conscience bothers them when they are being argumentative, stubbornly clinging to an argument long ago proven bogus have to go run to the Torah and find out if it is wrong or not? Will the torah reveal their pride? How? "False witness" is a legal proceeding term only. So your ideas are wrong, your terms are wrong and your cause is wrong. Bill Ross Quote Bill Ross
Moderators John317 Posted August 14, 2008 Moderators Posted August 14, 2008 >>>How about if I tell you to do me a big favor and stop using the unscriptural term, "the breath"? "The moral law" is not a scriptural term, but "breath" is. But I supply the KJV or LXXe or YLT and put my clarification in [brackets] to show that how I understand it. But you refer to "God's law in the New Testament" and it is not clear what your current referent is. Are you referring to the "moral law?" Sometimes. "The law of Moses" - sometimes. "The ceremonial, civil or other invented terms? Sometimes. It is a useless term. If you ever have any question as to what my referent is, just ask. If you have any doubt that either RUACH or PNEUMA are Hebrew and Greek terms that mean "breath" let me know. But there is no justification for referring to a scriptural term in several, mostly unscriptural, ways and expecting someone to be able to interact with your statements. If you said "Paul affirmed the men of Judah" but that term sometimes meant to yourself - five different things and meant something else to me, how far would we get? I can assure you that I had no idea that you were using the term "the moral law" other than your moniker for the ten commandments. You could have fooled me. You certainly SEEMED to be saying that! But NOW you say that what your referent is is "any command that relates to "morals," yes? What is wrong with the term "laws relating to morality?" And are these "morality laws" identified ANYWHERE besides inside your mind? I wouldn't ever ask you to stop using a term, anyway. I generally have no problem with people using language in whatever way they do it. But about "the law of God," or "the law," etc., the Bible uses those terms in different ways. I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. For instance, among others, it sometimes means all of the Scriptures, sometimes the books of Moses, and sometimes the Ten Commandments. In discussions and writings on theology or ethics, "moral law" is closely associated with the Ten Commandments but it is not limited to the Ten. The Ten Commandments are viewed as the most common and clearest example of where God summarized His commandments concerning morality and ethics. From now on, I will try to do a better job at making my meaning clear, particularly on the issue of the law. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 14, 2008 Moderators Posted August 14, 2008 You recently wrote: "The first 4 commandments in the moral law (which law was the only things that God wrote and spoke Himself) deal with our relationship to God, as in "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, etc." The idea is, Bill, that if we really do love God with all of our hearts, we will obey all the first four of the moral law. They all go together, like a chain. If you break one, you break all of them. Just like James says in James 2: 8-12. The last 6 commandments in the moral law are summed up in the command to love our fellow-humans. In other words, if we really love our neighbor, we will keep all 6 of those commandments. For instance, if I love my neighbor, I won't steal from him or kill him or have sex with his wife or her husband. I will be honest, etc. It sounds a WHOLE LOT like you said that the moral law consists of ten (not two and not 614) commands. Yes, that's right. The moral law most definitely does not consist of 614 commands. Again, as I've said before, the whole moral law may be summed up in the 2 laws, to love God with our entire heart and mind, and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Jesus was not saying that if you have the 2 laws, you can throw the Ten sayings away. That is a misreading of what the Text says and what Jesus meant. There are times when the moral law and Ten Commandments are used interchangeably. It's like "the law" or "the law of God"; the context usually makes it clear what's signified. Understand that the Ten Commandments really define all sin-- that is, provided that we understand it rightly, as Jesus Christ explained it, to be a spiritual law and not simply about outward behavior. In other words, if something is sinful, it will be covered by the Ten Commandments. I can't think of anything that isn't. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleShockers Posted August 15, 2008 Posted August 15, 2008 I guess I'll knock a few of these over: >>>The Law of God in the New Testament By which we mean what? I'll guess "the morality-type statutes of the law of Moses." How am I doing so far? And by "New Testament" you mean Matthew on, not "the new covenant" right? >>>1. BY what means did the Jews know God's will? "Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, and knowest His will,... being instructed out of the law." Rom. 2:17,18. Did the Jews know God's will? Or is Paul sneering at Jews for being cocky, imagining that they know God's will better than the gentiles? That is the real point. Paul really believes that the Jews knew squat about God's will, because the law was a stumbling block to them, blinding them to God's will. Yes? By the way, why don't you ever say "Um, you are right, instead of just dumping another SDA reprinted article? >>>2. What did they have in the law? "Which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law." Verse 20. NOTE.-The written law presents the form of knowledge and of the truth. Grace and truth, or grace and the reality or realization of that which the written law demands, came by Jesus Christ. He was the law in life and action. He is still mocking the Jewish confidence in the Torah, not placing the law as a thing of medium worth. >>>3. What did Jesus say of His attitude toward the law? "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matt. 5:17. NOTE.-By the expression "the law" here is meant the five books of Moses; and by "the prophets," the writings of the prophets. Christ did not come to set aside or to destroy either of these, but to fulfil both. The ceremonialism of types and shadows contained in the books written by Moses He fulfilled by meeting them as their great Antitype. The moral law, the great basic fabric underlying all of Moses' writings Christ fulfilled by a life of perfect obedience to all its requirements. The prophets He fulfilled in His advent as the Messiah, Prophet, Teacher, and Saviour foretold by them. The word "destroy" means to "unpack" or to "parse." The context clearly suggests that he is saying he did not come to parse the obligations presented in the law and the prophets into "obligatory" and "non-obligatory" ala "binding and loosing." He came to accentuate its complete character. >>>4. What did He teach concerning the stability of the law? "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Verse 18. Kudos. >>>5. In what instruction did He emphasize the importance of keeping the law? "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Verse 19. He is not talking of the law here, but about the commands he is about to give in his new torah. Note the word "these." And "these and them": Mt 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth ***these sayings of mine**, and doeth **them**, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: >>>6. What did Christ tell the rich young man to do in order to enter into life? "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matt. 19:17. The allusion here is to Deut 8:3 where survival in the conquest of the promised land is attributed to keeping ***every word that proceeds from the mouth of God***. Jesus was going to humble him to show him this: 1 ¶ Ye shall observe to do all the commands which I charge you to–day, that ye may live and be multiplied, and enter in and inherit the land, which the Lord your God sware to give to your fathers. 2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee in the wilderness, that he might afflict thee, and try thee, and that the things in thine heart might be made manifest, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments or no. 3 And he afflicted thee and straitened thee with hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thy fathers knew not; that he might teach thee that {1} man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God shall man live. {1) Mt 4:4} 4 Thy garments grew not old from off thee, thy shoes were not worn from off thee, thy feet were not painfully hardened, lo! these forty years. 5 And thou shalt know in thine heart, that as if any man should chasten his son, so the Lord thy God will chasten thee. 6 And thou shalt keep the commands of the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him. 7 For the Lord thy God will bring thee into a good and extensive land, where there are torrents of waters, and fountains {1} of deep places issuing through the plains and through the mountains: {1) Or, issuing from deep places} 8 a land of wheat and barley, wherein are vines, figs, pomegranates; a land of olive oil and honey; 9 a land on which thou shalt not eat thy bread with poverty, and thou shalt not want any thing upon it; a land whose stones are iron, and out of its mountains thou shalt dig brass. 10 ¶ And thou shalt eat and be filled, and shalt bless the Lord thy God on the good land, which he has given thee. But he would not learn, so he could not enter the kingdom. >>>7. When asked which commandments, what did Jesus say? "Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Verses 18,19. NOTE.-While not quoting all of the ten commandments, Jesus quoted sufficient of them to show that He referred to the moral law. No, he was either referring to just there (doubtful, but he may have highlighted these for a reason) or he was referring to "every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." He would not be referring to "the moral law" because no such subset of the Torah was EVER identified in the Bible. That is completely an unbiblical concept. And note that "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself is NOT in the ten commandments. Your sub-laws are simply not scriptural. >>>In quoting the second great commandment He called attention to the great principle underlying the second table of the law,-love to one's neighbor,-which the rich young man, in his covetousness, was not keeping. It is only your tradition that parses the laws by category onto the tables. And since it is not one of the 10, IT WOULDN'T BE ON EITHER TABLE! You are just spewing silly dogmas, traditions and quite honestly, obnoxious foolishness. You are not expounding the Bible but foisting your traditions upon it. >>>8. Does faith render the law void? "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Rom. 3:31. Right. He is establishing a superior, far glorious law - the law of faith (apart from the works of the law). >>>9. How is the law fulfilled? "Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment [touching our duty to our fellow men], it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Rom. 13:8-10. Love is the only obligation he says the believer is to accept. If they accept that (which is the second command of what could more properly called the moral law) - then they will not be subject to any other obligation to men. >>>10. What is of more importance than any outward ceremony? "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God." 1 Cor. 7:19. Grrr. You keep resubmitting stuff that I have shown to be lies. He is saying one doesn't have to sew their foreskin back on but just "stay in the [physical] state in which they were called." >>>11. What kind of mind is not subject to the law of God? "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Rom. 8:7. Yup. >>>12. What proves that the law is an undivided whole? "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For He that said [margin, that law which said], Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:10-12. Yup. >>>13. How is sin defined? "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4. Still appealing to a 400 year old mistranslation????!! >>>14. How may we know that we love the children of God? "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His commandments." 1 John 5:2. This is not referring to the Jewish law. >>>15. What is the love of God declared to be? "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." Verse 3. This is not Torah. >>>16. How is the church of the last days described? "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Rev. 12:17; 14:12.... Not torah. Bill Ross Quote Bill Ross
BibleShockers Posted August 15, 2008 Posted August 15, 2008 >>>But about "the law of God," or "the law," etc., the Bible uses those terms in different ways. I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. For instance, among others, it sometimes means all of the Scriptures, sometimes the books of Moses, and sometimes the Ten Commandments. To the degree that this is the case, to that degree it causes confusion. >>...From now on, I will try to do a better job at making my meaning clear, particularly on the issue of the law. Many thanks. If you are willing, use "the ten" to mean "the ten" and "morality laws" to refer to morality laws, etc. Bill Ross Quote Bill Ross
BibleShockers Posted August 15, 2008 Posted August 15, 2008 >>>....Understand that the Ten Commandments really define all sin-- that is, provided that we understand it rightly, as Jesus Christ explained it, to be a spiritual law and not simply about outward behavior. So the words that define not being angry at your brother without a reason are "you shall not murder?" Are these magical words? Are these the language of the planet Zargon? In English, those words DO NOT by ANY STRETCH of linguistics mean that. The US has laws that forbid murder. Rightly understood, does that mean that it is against US law to be angry? Isn't that like infinitely ridiculous? No, Jesus said: Matt 5: 21 ¶ Ye have heard that ***it was said by them of old time***, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 ***But I say unto you***, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore [because of what **I** say] if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. NONE of the stuff Jesus says is remotely present in the 10 commands. These are the commands of the new lawgiver. These are a new Torah. YOU CAN ONLY MAKE THE CLAIM but cannot show the evidence. The evidence is contrary to your dogmatic claim. YOUR CLAIM IS PATENTLY FALSE. The 10 commands do NOT include what Jesus taught. What he taught does not follow as a natural outgrowth of the prohibition of the 10 commands. Your claim is ABSURD. >>>In other words, if something is sinful, it will be covered by the Ten Commandments. I can't think of anything that isn't. Think harder. Or look one paragraph above. Bill Ross Quote Bill Ross
Moderators John317 Posted August 15, 2008 Moderators Posted August 15, 2008 >>>5. In what instruction did He emphasize the importance of keeping the law? "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Verse 19. He is not talking of the law here, but about the commands he is about to give in his new torah. Note the word "these." And "these and them": Mt 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth ***these sayings of mine**, and doeth **them**, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Yes, Matt. 7: 24 obviously refers to Jesus' teachings, but it is equally obvious that Matt 6: 19 has reference to the law he is talking about in the passage. He has just said that nothing of the law will pass away until everything it is fulfilled. The very next verse, v. 19, begins with "therefore," showing that what he says is logically the result of what is stated in v. 18. Look at the context: Matt. 5: 17-20--- 17 Don't suppose that I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets. I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning. 18 Heaven and earth may disappear. But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must happen. 19 If you reject even the least important command in the Law and teach others to do the same, you will be the least important person in the kingdom of heaven. But if you obey and teach others its commands, you will have an important place in the kingdom. 20 You must obey God's commands better than the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law obey them. If you don't, I promise you that you will never get into the kingdom of heaven. Literal translation: Matthew 5:17-20 (Young's Literal Translation) Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 17`Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets -- I did not come to throw down, but to fulfill; 18for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass. 19`Whoever therefore may loose one of these commands -- the least -- and may teach men so, least he shall be called in the reign of the heavens, but whoever may do and may teach [them], he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. 20`For I say to you, that if your righteousness may not abound above that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye may not enter to the reign of the heavens. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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