What is the Atonement?

[Gail]

Quote:

Of course Luther was a very imperfect man. But God doesn't judge us by what we don't know or by what we aren't convicted on. He takes into account how much spiritual light we have had or could have known if we had searched for Him.

Luther wasn't always consistent.

The Bible is full of characters who were imperfect, yet He still used them. I'm so glad he did! Where would we of today even begin if we had to wait until we attained some sort of level of perfection before we could even start?

Bill, I think that is why so many Adventists are able to hold friendships with those outside the realm of our beliefs. I've always been impressed with the fairness and acceptance that many Adventist people treat others.

Sad to say, it doesn't always hold true of everyone. I understand that. But in a general sense it has been my experience. It is understood that all humans are a work in progress. I praise the Lord that He is not as condemning of me as some humans feel they should be!

:)

[John317]

I did not know that about the Adventists. Very interesting. I guess that is why you don't have the knee-jerk "damn you to hell" reaction that Trinitarians usually exhibit.

I am going to start another thread on handling differences of opinion that I hope you'll participate in. I would like to know the SDA policy.

Bill

That is part of the reason, yes. I can understand people who do not believe in the Trinity.

Some people believe that anyone who doesn't believe in the Trinity will not be saved, but I am positive that is not necessarily true.

There will be many people in heaven-- probably the majority, in fact-- who never knew about the 7th day Sabbath. The same with the Trinity.

God takes into account what we are convicted of and what we know.

[BibleShockers]

>>>...There will be many people in heaven-- probably the majority, in fact-- who never knew about the 7th day Sabbath. The same with the Trinity. God takes into account what we are convicted of and what we know.

Well this is all news to me about SDAs. I guess I had you pegged wrong.

You brought up the idea of "going to heaven" which I find to be unscriptural. I'll start a new thread on it and hope you will offer your view.

Bill

[Robert]

....justification by faith is not based on law but grace through faith, the whole purpose of justifying faith through grace is to bring rebellious & lawless people back to obedience that springs from faith, Rom 1:5; 16:26. See my comments and references above regarding the blood. Gerry

And that work is never complete this side of eternity...so please stop pushing works. Why don't you focus in on yourself Gerry and leave the rest of us alone. Or would you like to be reminded how far you are off the mark?

Secondly, justification by faith is based on law. You could not be justified unto life unless the law was fulfilled. As the gospel states, your old life died in the humanity of Christ. Not only did it die, but it was made obedient in Christ. And Sunday morning you were resurrected. All this is true in Christ who established the law.

[Robert]

There will be many people in heaven-- probably the majority, in fact-- who never knew about the 7th day Sabbath. ...God takes into account what we are convicted of and what we know.

Please...don't go there. God doesn't hold a carrot out in front of us like that. Clearly, according to Paul, the "whole law" is fulfilled in just one sentence, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself." Nothing about Sabbath and other outward signs of faith.

Circumcision and Sabbath are almost the same....They are signs of faith for those who understand the issues. For those who don't, yet mandate such, are rightly called legalists!

Rob

[Fausto]

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[BibleShockers]

>>>Secondly, justification by faith is based on law. You could not be justified unto life unless the law was fulfilled.

This is not true. Justification by faith is entirely about the forgiveness of sins, not vicarious law fulfillment.

>>>As the gospel states, your old life died in the humanity of Christ. Not only did it die, but it was made obedient in Christ. And Sunday morning you were resurrected. All this is true in Christ who established the law.

Christ did not establish the law of Moses. Paul established the law of faith apart from the religious activities of the law.

[BibleShockers]

>>>Man...that is pretty clear to me Peter is talking about heaven being reserved for us!

No, the inheritance is there now, but will descend to the land:

"thy kingdom come."

>>>1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

What then is the above passage speaking about but us going to heaven?

The word "meet" means to go forth to escort someone back.

[BibleShockers]

>>>Why start a new thread? I think it is clear!

You might learn something.

[Fausto]

No, the inheritance is there now, but will descend to the land:

[BibleShockers]

>>>2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Paul was an itinerant tent maker. His earthly [from this earth] house was a tabernacle - a tent. He was looking for a city who's builder and maker are God, as Abraham was:

Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

What city? This one, I should think:

Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

I guess we don't have to do this in the new thread, though it seems off topic here.

Did God promise Abe that he would "go to heaven"? Or that he would give him land?

Rom 4:

13 For the promise [to Abe], that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it [the promise of the land] might be by grace; to the end the promise [the promise of the land] might be sure [secured] to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, ***but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham*** [Christians]; who is the father of us all,

[Fausto]

Did God promise Abe that he would "go to heaven"? Or that he would give him land?

[BibleShockers]

>>>True...He promised Abraham Canaan,

And his seed, including Christians:

Ga 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

>>>but He also showed him the plan of salvation (He provided a lamb for him to slaughter instead of Isaac)

The lamb is not a significant figure in the sacrificial system. The significant animals were bulls, goats and a red heifer.

Besides, it wasn't a lamb that Abe saw in the thicket but an adult ram.

This is an example of eisegesis.

>>>I am sure you know the New Jerusalem will only "touch" earth after the 1000 years, right?

Um, no:

Rev 21:

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

[Fausto]

Notice the first two passages in Rev 20, that preceed the one you just quoted, that is after the 1000 years, no 2 ways about it!

[BibleShockers]

>>>Notice the first two passages in Rev 20, that preceed the one youjust quoted, that is after the 1000 years, no 2 ways about it!

I didn't say that it wasn't.

This is the "final state." Jesus acts as holy terrorist for a thousand years subjecting God's enemies. When all of the enemies are subjected, Jesus steps down and God reigns by himself forever:

1 Cor 15:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

[Fausto]

Fair quote...except calling Jesus a holy terrorist that is not right, IMO!

Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of Water of Life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

...however the above shows them both reigning how do we get around that?

[BibleShockers]

>>>Fair quote...except calling Jesus a holy terrorist that is not right, IMO!

If you look at the weapons of mass destruction and broad brush terror tactics employed throughout Revelation you must realize that God and Jesus are exactly that. For example:

Rev 6:

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

>>>Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of Water of Life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

...however the above shows them both reigning how do we get around that?

They share a throne. Jesus gets it first, then God.

[Fausto]

Quote:

They share a throne. Jesus gets it first, then God.

Disagree! They share a throne, together!

Quote:

If you look at the weapons of mass destruction and broad brush terror tactics employed throughout Revelation you must realize that God and Jesus are exactly that.

I am not prepared to accept that! Those verses are represented in earth's history, and the devil is the one who caused all these disturbances not God or Jesus!

You need to study prophecy quite serious and have a change of heart my friend!

Statements like these: are an abomination and show the spirit of antichrist!

The book shows that, unlike modern day Christianity, the Bible portrays the God of the Hebrews as essentially a human-like king who lives in the sky.

Jesus, it turns out, was a sinner who was promoted to serve at God's right hand.

The worshiped Jesus, it turns out, is identified in several places as the antichrist.

[BibleShockers]

>>>Disagree! They share a throne, together!

The last I heard, you were going to study this...:

1Co 15:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

How can you "disagree?" What does that mean?

[Fausto]

How can you "disagree?" What does that mean?

[BibleShockers]

>>>The following verses tell me that both will reign together

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness on the earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three are into the one...

Fausto, why do you feel you have to "come up with the right answer?" You know that this is a silly answer!

>>>I never said the Jesus will be more than God, He submits to teh Father's authority in more than one place in the holy writ!

Fausto, quit playing games. You know this is a silly answer as well!

[John317]

>>>...There will be many people in heaven-- probably the majority, in fact-- who never knew about the 7th day Sabbath. The same with the Trinity. God takes into account what we are convicted of and what we know.

Well this is all news to me about SDAs. I guess I had you pegged wrong.

You brought up the idea of "going to heaven" which I find to be unscriptural. I'll start a new thread on it and hope you will offer your view.

Bill

Seventh-day Adventists have never believed that only Adventists or Sabbath keepers will be saved. Some have gotten that impression either because the message is sometimes not expressed very well or because the listener is not listening very well. Sometimes people stop listening before they understand what is being said.

Are you influenced by the "Jehovah's Witnesses" in your views? You seem to have several important, distinctive views of theirs-- that the saved don't go to heaven and that Jesus is not God. (I actually share many of their views, too--- not, however, the one's I've mentioned here.)

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

There will be many people in heaven-- probably the majority, in fact-- who never knew about the 7th day Sabbath. ...God takes into account what we are convicted of and what we know.

Please...don't go there. God doesn't hold a carrot out in front of us like that. Clearly, according to Paul, the "whole law" is fulfilled in just one sentence, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself." Nothing about Sabbath and other outward signs of faith.

Circumcision and Sabbath are almost the same....They are signs of faith for those who understand the issues. For those who don't, yet mandate such, are rightly called legalists!

Rob

Have you read Jack Sequiera's book, Christ Speaks To Laodicea? What do you think of chapter 5? He talks there about the differences between works of the law (legalism) and works of faith. See pp. 24-29.

He also talks about the results of genuine justification. A genuinely justified person will not refuse to obey what he knows is the will of God. And there can be no doubt that God would have everyone keep the seventh-day Sabbath. According to Christ, is a gift to all mankind. And it is also a test, just like the tree in the garden of Eden was a test.

[BibleShockers]

>>>...Are you influenced by the "Jehovah's Witnesses" in your views? You seem to have several important, distinctive views of theirs-- that the saved don't go to heaven and that Jesus is not God. (I actually share many of their views, too--- not, however, the one's I've mentioned here.)

I think it was JWs I encountered on the street who first challenged my assumption that God is a Trinity and that sinners go to Hell. I've never done a study with them or visited a kingdom hall. I have learned a lot from many people, but the bulk of my view comes from own study.

[John317]

>>>...Are you influenced by the "Jehovah's Witnesses" in your views? You seem to have several important, distinctive views of theirs-- that the saved don't go to heaven and that Jesus is not God. (I actually share many of their views, too--- not, however, the one's I've mentioned here.)

I think it was JWs I encountered on the street who first challenged my assumption that God is a Trinity and that sinners go to Hell. I've never done a study with them or visited a kingdom hall. I have learned a lot from many people, but the bulk of my view comes from own study.

I've enjoyed studying their teachings and literature and also getting to know many of them personally. I studied with them for quite a while back in the 1970s, but then again more recently I met with a few them, including an "overseer," for close to two years about twice a week for 2-4 hours each time. I basically just asked them questions about their beliefs during that time, because my motive was simply to understand what they believe.

I believe they are right about death and Hell, wrong about the Trinity and wrong about believers not going to heaven. They believe that only the 144,000 go to heaven and most of those are already in heaven as spirit-beings.

Their founder, Russell, was influenced by a former Millerite and Sunday-keeping Adventist, George Storrs, who wrote a book on the state of man in death. That is why they have some ideas in common with Seventh-day Adventists. They are almost identical to our beliefs on many things, including the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9. Back in the 1920,30s, they believed as we do on the 1, 260 day prophecy of Daniel 7. (Most JWs are unaware of this.)

Russell at first believed that Christ came invisibly in 1874; then he changed it to 1914, on the basis of Daniel 4. He also had some very strange beliefs concerning the Pyramids of Egypt, about Abraham coming back to life and living in San Diego, and numerous other beliefs, which they no longer hold.

The Bible is not their main authority for truth. That authority resides in the organization headquartered in New York. A faithful Jehovah's Witness will believe anything that he is told by the "faithful and discreet slave," who they understand to be the top leadership of their organization, the Watchtower.