What is the Atonement?

[BibleShockers]

How is it moral to sleep every Saturday?

Was God compelled by the righteousness that vindicated his rule to observe the Sabbath?!

Religion with such a meaningless mandate is silly!

Love is a worthy dictate. But picking a particular cycle of days for your idleness? Is that really what the morality of the universe is all about?!

"Oh Judge, what think ye?"

"Sorry, he idled on Tuesday! Depart from ye workers of iniquity!"

!

Bill Ross

[John317]

How is it moral to sleep every Saturday?

Was God compelled by the righteousness that vindicated his rule to observe the Sabbath?!

Religion with such a meaningless mandate is silly!

Love is a worthy dictate. But picking a particular cycle of days for your idleness? Is that really what the morality of the universe is all about?!

"Oh Judge, what think ye?"

"Sorry, he idled on Tuesday! Depart from ye workers of iniquity!"

!

Bill Ross

There are good, reasonable answers to your questions here, Bill. You are not the only one who has considered these things.

Why did God tell Adam not to touch a particular tree? Was that tree of itself any different from all the other trees? Was the nature of that particular tree the reason?

Is the 24 hour time-period of the 7th day any different from any other day of the week? If you measured the time in every way scientifically, it's highly likely you would not see any difference.

Just like the tree in the garden which God separated from the rest of the trees He had made.

Adam might well have reasoned the same as you have about the Sabbath: Why that tree? Why not any other tree? It's ridiculous for me to obey such an unreasonable command.

Well, perhaps he did so reason, but in any case, Adam disobeyed God's commandment and ate of the tree God had told him not to eat.

We know the result. The result of a "silly, petty thing" like eating fruit from a tree that was apparently no different from any other tree in the garden.

[BibleShockers]

>>>Would you only obey God if His commandments makes sense to you and you understand it in all its details and agree that it is good for you to keep it?

Yes. If God said "hate grasshoppers" and I had no moral reason to do so I would refuse.

I'm not pious.

But, the NT does not demand piety. It says that "all the law hangs on 2 commands" - so I feel justified to "shake off any snake" that is not conected to the moral code. I'm not sure about the first command, but that second one sounds like a pretty good guide.

But stupid religiosity like "God hates people who don't rest on Saturday" are stupid and wicked.

IF the foundation of God's throne is a particular cycle of idle days then he can go... well, I don't approve.

Bill

[BibleShockers]

A close friend of mine went to years of semenary and became a preacher. He then expounded for me the following text:

Pr 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

He said that the wicked defiled his favorite number - seven!

Who wouldn't be wrathful if someone trafficked all over your favorite number?!

AS STOOOPID AS THAT IS, the "seventh day" crowd is WAAAAY stoopider.

Look, fill in the blanks yourself...

But sacred days is NOT a moral idea any more than "favorite numbers" is.

Bill Ross

[John317]

>>>Would you only obey God if His commandments makes sense to you and you understand it in all its details and agree that it is good for you to keep it?

Yes. If God said "hate grasshoppers" and I had no moral reason to do so I would refuse.

I'm not pious.

But, the NT does not demand piety. It says that "all the law hangs on 2 commands" - so I feel justified to "shake off any snake" that is not conected to the moral code. I'm not sure about the first command, but that second one sounds like a pretty good guide.

.......

OK, Jesus' 2 "commands" say nothing about stealing or murdering. They say nothing about living in a gay bar and going home for sex every night with a different man.

So, since the 2 commandments say nothing about those things, I suppose-- according to your reasoning about the texts-- I would be perfectly all right to do those things. Is that true?

[BibleShockers]

>>>The Bible plainly teaches that the weekly Sabbath was made for mankind and not only for the Jew. The 7th day Sabbath predates the existence of Israel or of Jews.

The (ridiculous) creation account says that God rested and was refreshed on the seventh day so he blessed it. Fine. I'm with the idea of blessing, aren't you?

But then God spouts lightning and thunder and says in his "law of liberty" address:

"THOU SHALT NOT pick up packages more than 45 pounds on Saturday!"

Thus it became as POINT OF LAW. But it could NEVER become the basic MORAL FOUNDATION OF GOD'S THRONE. Are you smoking luncheon meat again?

Any true morality is tied in some sense to the first two great commands (biblically speaking).

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

"God is very concerned that you are worshipping on Thursday instead of Saturday."

?????

What?

Huh?

Because this is the very foundation of his throne???????????!

"Stop the world, I want to get off!"

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

You are one fiery sermon short of being a suicide bomber who kills the Shia for not being Sunni!

Bill Ross

[John317]

>>>Would you only obey God if His commandments makes sense to you and you understand it in all its details and agree that it is good for you to keep it?

Yes. If God said "hate grasshoppers" and I had no moral reason to do so I would refuse.

I'm not pious.

But, the NT does not demand piety. It says that "all the law hangs on 2 commands" - so I feel justified to "shake off any snake" that is not conected to the moral code. I'm not sure about the first command, but that second one sounds like a pretty good guide.

But stupid religiosity like "God hates people who don't rest on Saturday" are stupid and wicked.

IF the foundation of God's throne is a particular cycle of idle days then he can go... well, I don't approve.

Bill

My best friend says the same thing about virtually all the Ten Commandments. He thinks it's ridiculous of God to have prohibited sexual intercourse outside of marriage. He thinks that it is perfectly OK for a woman to have sex with a dog or for a man to have sex with a couch or a pillow if he likes doing that. He thinks it is OK to steal if you can get away with it. The other day I asked him if he is a sinner. He told me pointblank, "No, I am not a sinner."

I used to think the same things. I used to steal Marxist literature from bookstores in Paris, France. Was that OK? Why not? Isn't God silly to say we can't do that? Some years back, I would have said it was.

[John317]

You are one fiery sermon short of being a suicide bomber who kills the Shia for not being Sunni!

Bill Ross

Really? How am I treating you, Bill? Do you think I would kill someone for not agreeing with the Bible or with my ideas? Is that what the Bible and Christ teaches?

That is what the Qu'ran teaches, or at least what some Muslims understand it to teach, but that is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ, isn't it?

[John317]

"God is very concerned that you are worshipping on Thursday instead of Saturday."

?????

What?

Huh?

Because this is the very foundation of his throne???????????!

"Stop the world, I want to get off!"

Bill Ross

You can-- and in fact, should-- worship God every day of the week. (I don't mean worship God the same as you do on the Sabbath.)

Let us suppose your wife and you have your 25th anniversary coming up this Tuesday. She gets all ready to celebrate with you and has dinner waiting for you.

But instead of meeting her, you go off and play golf with your friends and you stay gone until 2 days after the anniversary.

When you finally get home on Thursday, your wife asks where you were, and you respond that you believe any day would be fine for celebrating the anniversary, so you planned for you and her to celebrate on Friday. You ask her why she is so particular about the day and observe that it's silly for her to think that way.

How would she feel?

[BibleShockers]

>>OK, Jesus' 2 "commands" say nothing about stealing or murdering.

I think one could draw a strong connection between "thou shalt love your neighbor as you love yourself" and "don't kill your neighbor or steal his pumpkins" don't you?

But what is the connection with these and being idle on Saturday?

>>>They say nothing about living in a gay bar and going home for sex every night with a different man.

True.

>>>So, since the 2 commandments say nothing about those things, I suppose-- according to your reasoning about the texts-- I would be perfectly all right to do those things. Is that true?

You will not likely meet a man more irrationally disgusted by the whole "gay" thing than myself. For me it is not a religious thing but rather a viscreal disgust. Ok?

But unless my revulsion is appropriately connected to the 2 commands, how do I know it is not bigotry?

Religion void of morality is just sinister dogma.

Bill Ross

[John317]

...Because this [the Ten Commandments] is the very foundation of his throne???????????!

"Stop the world, I want to get off!"

Bill Ross

First, before you get off, God wants you to be sure you understand what you are rejecting, and He hopes that you decide to stay on the world with Him for eternity. It is going to be really wonderful-- far more wonderful than you can imagine.

After that-- after you understand these things-- if you still want to get off, and don't want to join Jesus and the millions of others who will be there and enjoying living for God, then God will give you the freedom to choose to get off. But the world won't stop. It will never stop. It will last for eternity just like the people who will live on it.

If you miss that, friend, you will have missed EVERYTHING.

[John317]

JOHN3:17-- >>OK, Jesus' 2 "commands" say nothing about stealing or murdering.

Quote:

BILL ROSS-- I think one could draw a strong connection between "thou shalt love your neighbor as you love yourself" and "don't kill your neighbor or steal his pumpkins" don't you?

I think you are right! Of course. That is exactly what I have been saying. They are connected, just like the Bible says-- they are "summed up" in those 2 commandments (Romans 13: 8-10). All of them are. Can you name one of the Ten sayings that isn't?

By the way, don't you see Romans 13: 8-10 and James 2: 10-13 as saying that believers ought to obey the the Ten Commandments?

Based on your understanding of Saint Paul and James, what do you imagine they would have said if you had told them, "Well, I don't have to obey those Ten Commandments because all I have to do is obey the 2 great ones about love for God and love for my neighbor"?

Do you really think they would say you understand perfectly?

[BibleShockers]

>>>My best friend says the same thing about virtually all the Ten Commandments. He thinks it's ridiculous of God to have prohibited sexual intercourse outside of marriage.

That is an NT concept. In the OT, the prohibition was against taking a woman who was already another man's property! "Adultery"

>>He thinks that it is perfectly OK for a woman to have sex with a dog or for a man to have sex with a couch or a pillow if he likes doing that.

Half of me says that one must adhere to the highest standards of decency and fidelity, but half of me wonders if a Chiuahuah is really sinning when it humps my leg?!

>>He thinks it is OK to steal if you can get away with it.

Please ask him if that is a fair characterization of himself. He MIGHT say "No, that is not what I meant." But, if that is what is meant, I think you would have no trouble connecting his attitude/behavior with the second command.

>>The other day I asked him if he is a sinner. He told me pointblank, "No, I am not a sinner."

I used to think the same things. I used to steal Marxist literature from bookstores in Paris, France. Was that OK? Why not? Isn't God silly to say we can't do that? Some years back, I would have said it was.

My son has two dogs. They often fight to establish dominance. I shudder to think of the blood letting that would be involved if a pink poodle showed up one day! But is their fighting/competion really sinful? Or is it natural?

I will hear "sinful" in an analysis of fighting for dominance. But if the dog idles away Friday and is condemned for not idling away Saturday, I'm going to be upset!

Bill Ross

[John317]

JOHN3:17-- >>>They say nothing about living in a gay bar and going home for sex every night with a different man.

True.

OK, but go now to Saint Paul and read what the Holy Spirit ("breath") inspired him to write in 1 Cor. 6: 9, 10.

Is Paul contradicting Jesus? I don't believe so.

Also, in view of the fact that the 2 great commandments say nothing about immorality, is a believer free to do that because of his faith in Christ?

Not if we truly understand the meaning of Christ's words.

But if we have a misunderstanding of Christ's words, we can make it appear that they have nothing to do with my living in a gay bar. Or with lying or stealing or, yes, also with not keeping the Sabbath.

[John317]

JOHN3:17-- >>He thinks that it is perfectly OK for a woman to have sex with a dog or for a man to have sex with a couch or a pillow if he likes doing that.

I can almost see your smile as you write this, but of course God did not make dogs with moral standards that they are free to violate. Mark Twain wrote a lot about that difference between humanity and the beasts. He ended up envying the beasts and hating God. He thought God made a great mistake making us with a conscience. I feel sorry for Twain. He let bitterness over his wife's and daughter's sufferings blind him to the truth about God.

[BibleShockers]

>>>Really? How am I treating you, Bill? Do you think I would kill someone for not agreeing with the Bible or with my ideas?

No, John317, you have not in ANY WAY mistreated me. You have been the commensurate gentleman. If all of the world followed suit we would be a-ok.

My pont is that once you divorce a dogma from an intelligible moral foundation, you run the VERY REAL risk that the adherent to the creed will beome an immoral agent.

Is it all that impossible to imagine that, convinced that the Bible said to do so, you beat a Jew with a club?

FIFTY YEAR AGO our allies were slaughtering Jews. Why? Because their ideology said that made sense!

My idea is that, before charging off into dubious service to a deity, it is ok to question if this really is mandated by the 2 commands.

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

By accepting that a certain day of worship is the absolute moral dictate of the deity, I question whether you will be prepared to question the idea that the deity wants you to kill Jews.

GOOD PEOPLE (Lutherans and Catholics) killed Jews for sport. Go figure.

Bill Ross

[John317]

....My pont is that once you divorce a dogma from an intelligible moral foundation, you run the VERY REAL risk that the adherent to the creed will beome an immoral agent.

Is it all that impossible to imagine that, convinced that the Bible said to do so, you beat a Jew with a club?

FIFTY YEAR AGO our allies were slaughtering Jews. Why? Because their ideology said that made sense!

My idea is that, before charging off into dubious service to a deity, it is ok to question if this really is mandated by the 2 commands.

Bill Ross

Good, valid points. For me it can never be a bad thing to think through those things over and over again. The oftener and more thoroughly it is done, the better.

[John317]

By accepting that a certain day of worship is the absolute moral dictate of the deity, I question whether you will be prepared to question the idea that the deity wants you to kill Jews.

GOOD PEOPLE (Lutherans and Catholics) killed Jews for sport. Go figure.

Bill Ross

And in Africa, members of all religious groups-- except, to the best of my knowledge, "Jehovah's Witnesses,"--- slaughtered each other for no other reason than that they belonged to another tribe.

That is not a reflection on the religion-- unless the religion itself teaches that this is OK to do. But the NT never calls us as believers to murder people for any reason. In fact, Jesus' message is just the opposite. Jesus went to the cross and died a cruel, cruel death when He might have killed those who were nailing Him to the cross. And Jesus called all His Apostles-- minus one, John-- to die a martyr's death, rather than fight back.

Now it's a fact that some people claiming to be Christians murdered Jews, but that is because they did not have a true understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ and did not practice it.

But apart from the Holy Spirit abiding (living) in us, we are each of us capable-- under certain circumstances-- of committing virtually every horror imaginable.

[BibleShockers]

>>>...Let us suppose your wife and you have your 25th anniversary coming up this Tuesday. She gets all ready to celebrate with you and has dinner waiting for you.

But instead of meeting her, you go off and play golf with your friends and you stay gone until 2 days after the anniversary.

Your wife ask where you were, and you say you thought any day would be fine for celebrating the anniversary, so you planned for you and her to celebrate on Friday.

How would she feel?

Obviously, she would damn me to Hell! That is why we don't have women in positions of power! She would NEVER stop slapping me!

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

>>>...That is exactly what I have been saying. They are connected, just like the Bible says-- they are "summed up" in those 2 commandments. All of them are. Can you name one of the Ten sayings that isn't?

Um, "Sell everything you have, give it to the poor and follow me?"

Bill

[BibleShockers]

>>>OK, but go now to Saint Paul and read what the Holy Spirit ("breath") inspired him to write in 1 Cor. 6: 9, 10.

Is Paul contradicting Jesus? I don't believe so.

Also, in view of the fact that the 2 great commandments say nothing about immorality, is a believer free to do that because of his faith in Christ?

Not if we understand the meaning of Christ's words.

But if we have a misunderstanding of Christ's words, we can make it appear that they have nothing to do with my living in a gay bar. Or with lying or stealing or, yes, also with not keeping the Sabbath.

I think that you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. So I herein correct my religion to read thusly:

"Love God,love your neighbor, and stay out of Gay Bars - ESPECIALLY on The Day of God's Favorite Number - 7".

Does that provide enough support for God's righteousness and justice??!

Bill Ross

[John317]

>>>...Let us suppose your wife and you have your 25th anniversary coming up this Tuesday. She gets all ready to celebrate with you and has dinner waiting for you.

But instead of meeting her, you go off and play golf with your friends and you stay gone until 2 days after the anniversary.

Your wife ask where you were, and you say you thought any day would be fine for celebrating the anniversary, so you planned for you and her to celebrate on Friday.

How would she feel?

Obviously, she would damn me to Hell! That is why we don't have women in positions of power! She would NEVER stop slapping me!

Bill Ross

That's not what it's about, however, although that is the way it is unfortunately (badly) presented.

Let me give another illustration.

Do you have family day? Or a time which you devote to being with your wife and children? Or maybe just with your wife? Or maybe with a child?

Let's suppose you have such a time set aside for your family. Why would you or anyone else have such a time? It is for establishing and nurturing your personal relationship with them. It is for you to get to know them and for them to get to know you.

This is the same with the Sabbath. It is a time-- a twenty-four hour block of time-- set apart for devoting to your relationship with God, learning about Him, becoming acquainted with our Lord and Savior.

At its most basic level, then, the Sabbath is for the purpose of people becoming more like God in their characters-- that is, more loving, more forgiving, less selfish, more honest, more committed to their wives or husbands, a better citizen of God's kingdom (which will also translate into being a better citizen of one's community, in the deepest sense of the word).