Will believers be judged by the law?

[BibleShockers]

Does the SDA have an official statement regarding believers being judged by the law?

Thanks,

Bill Ross

[olger]

There is Biblical evidence that we will be judged by our works (Rev 20:12-13). Perhaps that will help. See also Isaiah 42:4.

James also tells us that we will be judged by the law of Liberty. Either that is a brand new law of some kind, or it describes the essence of the Moral law. I believe the latter due to Romans 8:2.

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

Go do the right thing,

oG

[BibleShockers]

>>>There is Biblical evidence that we will be judged by our works (Rev 20:12-13).

Believers are the exception to that rule.

>>Perhaps that will help. See also Isaiah 42:4.

James also tells us that we will be judged by the law of Liberty. Either that is a brand new law of some kind, or it describes the essence of the Moral law. I believe the latter due to Romans 8:2.

No, it is is a new law:

Lu 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

James 2:

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

>>>"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

Are you familiar with the term "breath of life?" It is the idea that God's breath is intelligent and life giving:

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The word "law" here has the meaning of "principle." So the breath of life is a new operating principle:

Ga 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit [breath of life], ye are not under the law.

But you are still operating under the old principle of law!

[olger]

According to Jeremiah, a distinguishing feature of the New Covenant was the writing of the Law upon the heart of man. Thus the superiority of the New Covenant consists not in an abrogation of the Law, but in its ability to bring the Law into more intimate influence within the believer.

regards,

`oG

[BibleShockers]

>>>According to Jeremiah, a distinguishing feature of the New Covenant was the writing of the Law upon the heart of man.

One distinguishing feature of the new covenant is that it is between God and the Jews. If you have any doubt, please rush over to Jeremiah 31 and read from verse 31.

>>>>Thus the superiority of the New Covenant consists not in an abrogation of the Law, but in its ability to bring the Law into more intimate influence within the believer.

It is only your assumption that the law of the new covenant is the same one as the old. Not so:

Heb 8:

7 For ***if that first covenant had been faultless***, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

[BibleShockers]

>>>...James also tells us that we will be judged by the law of Liberty. Either that is a brand new law of some kind, or it describes the essence of the Moral law. I believe the latter due to Romans 8:2.

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

What, pray tell, in Romans 8:2 indicates to you that we are dealing with some undefined entity called "the Moral law?"

[John317]

Does the SDA have an official statement regarding believers being judged by the law?

Thanks,

Bill Ross

Will this work?---

19. Law of God:

The great principles of God's law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God's love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age. These precepts are the basis of God's covenant with His people and the standard in God's judgment. Through the agency of the Holy Spirit they point out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour. Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments. This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness. (Ex. 20:1-17; Ps. 40:7, 8; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 28:1-14; Matt. 5:17-20; Heb. 8:8-10; John 15:7-10; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 John 5:3; Rom. 8:3, 4; Ps. 19:7-14.)

[John317]

>>>...James also tells us that we will be judged by the law of Liberty. Either that is a brand new law of some kind, or it describes the essence of the Moral law. I believe the latter due to Romans 8:2.

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

What, pray tell, in Romans 8:2 indicates to you that we are dealing with some undefined entity called "the Moral law?"

What does it mean to be free from the law of sin and death?

What is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

In verse 8: 3, what was it the law could not do?

And what is the righteous requirement of the law that is fulfilled in the believer who walks according to the Spirit?

If you find the answer to those questions, you will know the answer to your question about what we are dealing with in Rom 8: 2.

The answer to your question is found in Romans 6: 15-23.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ is power of the gospel which causes believers in Christ to be slaves of righteousness.

[John317]

What is "righteousness"?

Do a thorough word study of how the Bible uses that word.

[BibleShockers]

>>>Will this work?---

"Work?" as in "Works?!"

>>>19. Law of God:

The great principles of God's law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God's love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age.

No. The law is the covenant terms for the covenant God made with Israel. It is not the covenant terms for the new covenant, nor is it relevant to justification by faith.

>>>These precepts are the basis of God's covenant with His people

Um, the Jews. Are you familiar with the term "jurisdiction?"

>>>and the standard in God's judgment.

ONLY FOR THE JEWS, foolish Galatians and SDAs.

>>>Through the agency of the Holy Spirit they point out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour.

So the "Holy Spirit Agency" is sort of ad agency for the Jewish law? The only thing God breaths is the 10 commands? "Thou shalt not!"

>>>Salvation is all of grace

"Salvation" - do you mean "justification?"

"Grace" - what is that?

>>>and not of works, but

Careful, goats "butt"!

>>>its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments.

THE FRUITAGE OF THE BREATH IS TORAH OBSERVANCE????

Gal 5:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

>>>This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness. (Ex. 20:1-17; Ps. 40:7, 8; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 28:1-14; Matt. 5:17-20; Heb. 8:8-10; John 15:7-10; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 John 5:3; Rom. 8:3, 4; Ps. 19:7-14.)

John, you are clearly not even on the right mountain:

Ga 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

[John317]

JOHN3:17--

>>>19. Law of God:

The great principles of God's law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God's love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age.

When was the New Covenant made? When was it ratified?

What is the legal basis of the New Covenant?

[John317]

[John3:17--

>>>19. Law of God:

The great principles of God's law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God's love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age.

Quote:

Bill--- No. The law is the covenant terms for the covenant God made with Israel. It is not the covenant terms for the new covenant, nor is it relevant to justification by faith.

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- >>>These precepts are the basis of God's covenant with His people..

Quote:

BILL ROSS -- Um, the Jews. Are you familiar with the term "jurisdiction?"

If you read what the Bible says about the Ten Commandments, you will find that the Ten Commandments were the legal basis of the Old Covenant and that they are also the legal basis of the New Covenant. God did not cancel them or do away with them. Jesus very clearly denied that was the object or the effect of His first coming. Matt. 5.

The Old Covenant was about the Ten Commandment. God promises that if they would obey Him and His laws, they would be His special people. The people in turn promised that they would obey the Ten Commandments. God wrote and spoke those Ten Commandments on stone.

Under the New Covenant, the same law is the legal basis of the agreement. The difference is that the promises are better, and all we need to do is accept God's promises. God does not ask for us to makes promises in order for Him to fulfill His promises. All we can do is accept His gift. God promises to write His laws on our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit. See Hebrews 8 and 10; also 2 Cor. 3. The whole process of salvation is by trust and faith.

The Ten Commandments are eternal as God is eternal because are they a written transcript of His character. They are based on love and God is love. He could change the Ten Commandments as much as He could change Himself, and the Bible tells us that God does not change. Neither does Christ. So the law of God remains the same forever.

In order to show that some of the law was changed under the New Covenant-- for instance, the Sabbath-- it would have to be shown it was changed before the death of Christ.

[John317]

>>>its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments.

Are there any of the Ten Commandments that you dislike or wish you could disobey?

Are the Ten Commandments against love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance?

Remember that Jesus had the law written on his mind and heart-- He had law in his heart-- and He was exhibited perfectly all the above characteristics. The Bible says His disciples will walk as Jesus walked. Therefore it is obvious that Jesus disciples will keep all of God's commandments.

[BibleShockers]

>>>What does it mean to be free from the law of sin and death?

The law of sin and death is the way that Paul believes a Jew's life works. To Paul, Jews are uniquely loathsome ctitters and here he gives the physics of Jew misery. All men are slaves to an evil alien that lives within their muscles ("Mr. Sin"). But Jews know this evil alien uniquely because he looms large whenever the commands of the Torah are presented to the miserable, enslaved Jew. For example, when the Jew reads the words "You must not wish you had someone else's ox," immediately Mr. Sin goes to work and produces in them an overwhelming urgent craving for just that very ox. This is "the principle of sin and death."

Freedom from this principle comes when the forgiven believer receives the "breath of life" (which is the very breath of God).

Before the believer can receive the breath of life, they must be dead. So they die to the law and they die to sin by vicariously participating in Jesus' own death to the law and sin.

While dead to both law and sin, the breath of life enters and brings newness of life. This is a life free from both sin and the law. In addition, sin within the muscles is given a death sentence.

>>>What is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

It is the principle of living that involves that knowledge and power that comes from having the breath of God within you.

>>>In verse 8: 3, what was it the law could not do?

It gave sin in the muscles of men a death sentence, and surpassed the law's requirement to be justified.

>>>And what is the righteous requirement of the law that is fulfilled in the believer who walks according to the Spirit?

To be justified.

>>>If you find the answer to those questions, you will know the answer to your question about what we are dealing with in Rom 8: 2.

Got it.

>>>The answer to your question is found in Romans 6: 15-23.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ is power of the gospel which causes believers in Christ to be slaves of righteousness.

Bueno.

[BibleShockers]

>>>What is "righteousness"?

Do a thorough word study of how the Bible uses that word.

It is ignorant to presume that a word has only a single usage.

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

>>>When was the New Covenant made? When was it ratified?

Circa 30 CE.

>>>What is the legal basis of the New Covenant?

Surely you know, so please just tell us.

[John317]

John3:17-- >>>This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness. (Ex. 20:1-17; Ps. 40:7, 8; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 28:1-14; Matt. 5:17-20; Heb. 8:8-10; John 15:7-10; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 John 5:3; Rom. 8:3, 4; Ps. 19:7-14.)

Quote:

BILL ROSS--- John, you are clearly not even on the right mountain:

Ga 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

What mountain are you on? What does that mean in your personal life? Again, which part of God's Ten Commandment law do you want to disobey? Which commandment does the Holy Spirit lead people to disobey? Which one does God not write on our hearts?

Mt. Sinai is where the law is on the outside of us. It is where people promise they will obey an external law.

By contrast, Jerusalem above gives us freedom to be what God intends us to be. The law of God is written by God Himself on our hearts, not on stone. It is internalized. This is done by faith as we continue in a day by day relationship with Christ.

In God's kingdom which part of God's law would you want to be able to break? The first, second, third, fourth? How about the last six?

In God's Kingdom, all people will love God and love others, and thus all will obey God's law JOYFULLY because it will be a part of their very nature.

[John317]

>>>What is "righteousness"?

Do a thorough word study of how the Bible uses that word.

It is ignorant to presume that a word has only a single usage.

Bill Ross

So, on the basis of what you know of the Bible, what does the Bible mean by "righteous" and "righteousness"?

[BibleShockers]

>>>If you read what the NT says about the Ten Commandments,

The ten commandments are never mentioned in the NT.

>>>you will find that the Ten Commandments were the legal basis of the Old Covenant and that they are also the legal basis of the New Covenant.

I will? Show me!

>>>God did not cancel them or do away with them.

Of course not. Is God like a man who renigs?

>>>The Old Covenant was about the Ten Commandment.

Right. The covenant he made with the Jews.

>>>God promises that if they would obey Him and His laws, they would be His special people.

Yes!

>>>The people in turn promised that they would obey the Ten Commandments.

Just the 10? What about the other 604?!

>>>God wrote and spoke those Ten Commandments on stone.

I'm not sure what you are going for there...

>>>Under the New Covenant, the same law is the legal basis of the agreement.

Says who?

>>>The difference is that the promises are better. God promises to write them on our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit. See Hebrews 8 and 10; also 2 Cor. 3.

How do you know that that is the only difference? Maybe he found fault with them?

>>>The Ten Commandments are eternal as God is eternal because are they a written transcript of His character.

Uh, no. They arrived 430 years after God made a deal with Abe.

>>>They are based on love and God is love.

No. They are based on a doing, not loving.

>>>He could change the Ten Commandments as much as He could change Himself,

Of course he doesn't change a deal. But he found fault and made a new deal.

>>>and the Bible tells us that God does not change. Neither does Christ. So the law of God remains the same forever.

God has more than one law. That law was only for the Jews.

>>>In order to show that some of the law was changed under the New Covenant-- for instance, the Sabbath-- it would have to be shown it was changed before the death of Christ.

What are you pontificating about?

[John317]

>>>When was the New Covenant made? When was it ratified?

Circa 30 CE.

>>>What is the legal basis of the New Covenant?

Surely you know, so please just tell us.

That's right-- the New Covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ.

Any changes in the Covenant had to be made before the ratification of the covenant.

The legal basis of the New Covenant was the same as that of the Old Covenant.

What was the legal basis of the Old Covenant?

[BibleShockers]

>>>Are there any of the Ten Commandments that you dislike or wish you could disobey?

Just ten.

>>>Are the Ten Commandments against love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance?

They are not moral. They are dead letters. So says Paul.

>>>Remember that Jesus had the law written on his mind and heart, and He the law law in his heart--

But which law? Do you think God has only one law??

>>>and He was exhibited perfectly all the above characteristics. The Bible says His disciples will walk as Jesus walked. Therefore it is obvious that Jesus disciples will keep all of God's commandments.

Jesus was not under the law. He was above the law.

Lu 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

[BibleShockers]

>>>That's right-- the New Covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ.

Any changes in the Covenant had to be made before the ratification of the covenant.

The legal basis of the New Covenant was the same as that of the Old Covenant.

What was the legal basis of the Old Covenant?

This is what they call a "non sequiter" - it "doesn't follow." Ie: It makes no sense whatsoever.

Please show a "line of reasoning."

[John317]

>>>If you read what the NT says about the Ten Commandments,

Not by the name "Ten Commandments," true, but they are all supported by the New Testament.

Certainly you don't think the New Testament gives Christians permission to disobey them, do you?

1) The Law Of God

Old Testament

Deuteronomy 5:6-21 I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

ONE: Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

The Law Of God

New Testament

ONE: Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written,

Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

2) The Law Of God

Old Testament

TWO: Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, or any likeness of any thing that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

The Law Of God

New Testament

TWO: 1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

NOTE: Verses in Blue are verses written AFTER Christ's death. AFTER the 'nailing of the law to the cross'.

3) The Law Of God

Old Testament

THREE: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold [him] guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

The Law Of God

New Testament

THREE: 1 Timothy 6:1 ... that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

4) FOUR: Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. (See also Ex. 20)

The Law Of God

New Testament

FOUR: Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Mark 2:27-28 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

5) The Law Of God

Old Testament

FIVE: Honor thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee

The Law Of God

New Testament

FIVE: Matthew 19:19 Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Ephesians 6:1-3 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

6) The Law Of God

Old Testament

SIX: Thou shalt not kill.

The Law Of God

New Testament

SIX: Romans 13:9 Thou shalt not kill

7) The Law Of God

Old Testament

SEVEN: Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

The Law Of God

New Testament

SEVEN: Romans 13:9 ... Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8) The Law Of God

Old Testament

EIGHT: Neither shalt thou steal.

The Law Of God

New Testament

EIGHT: Romans 13:9 ... Thou shalt not steal.

The Law Of God

Old Testament

9) NINE: Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

The Law Of God

New Testament

NINE: Romans 13:9 ... Thou shalt not bear false witness.

10) The Law Of God

Old Testament

TEN: Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbor's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any [thing] that [is] thy neighbor's.

These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

The Law Of God

New Testament

TEN: Romans 13:9 ... Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[BibleShockers]

>>>What mountain are you on?

Sand Mountain. It is just across from Lookout Mountain. In between is the area they call "Will's Valley."

>>>What does that mean in your personal life?

Diddly squat.

>>>Again, which part of God's Ten Commandment law do you want to disobey?

All ten, starting from "Remember the seventh day."

>>>Which commandment does the Holy Spirit lead people to disobey?

What is a "Holy Spirit?"

>>>Which one does God not write on our hearts?

Please quit asking frivolous questions.

>>>Mt. Sinai is where the law is on the outside of us.

NO. Sinai=bondage.

>>>It is where people promise they will obey a law.

Sinai=bondage.

>>>Jerusalem above gives us freedom to be what God intends us to be.

Apart from the law.

>>>The law of God is written by God Himself on our hearts, not on stone.

You baselessly insist that the law written in the heart of the believer is not the very mind of God by his breath but "Thou shalt not... and rest on the 7th day... amen, hallelujah."

Not so. The very mind of God is not contained in those trite sayings. They are not even moral. They are pitifully small-scoped.

>>>It is internalized. This is done by faith as we continue in a day by day relationship with Christ.

Yada, Yada... 10 stupid commands internalized? What is the point? "Keep the 7th day." Wow. I'm impressed with the love, wisdom and righteousness of God!

>>>In God's kingdom which part of God's law would you want to be able to break? The first, second, third, fourth? How about the last six?

They are less enlightened than the laws of the US. They are stupid laws. They are ignorant laws.

>>>In God's Kingdom, all people will love God and love others, and thus all will obey God's law JOYFULLY because it will be a part of their very nature.

You are a religious person. For you, laws like this are magic gems. But to a sensible person, they are stupid. What is so "spiritual" about every seven days?!

[BibleShockers]

>>>So, on the basis of what you know of the Bible, what does the Bible mean by "righteous" and "righteousness"?

Different things at different times. This is why lexicons (good ones) don't just supply a single usage of a word when in THE REAL WORLD, people use the same word for multiple purposes.

In order to bring forth new understand of the complexity of language, maybe you could supply "the meaning" of the word "gay?"

Hello?