Will believers be judged by the law?

[BibleShockers]

>>>Check out Exodus 33:18-23. Look at the context of John 1:18. Christ was God vieled in human flesh so we could see Him. Sinful mankind cannot see God as He is in Himself, in His full glory.

Well, this is one of the problems with discussing the Bible. I try very hard to follow the logic and have it all cohere, but sometimes the inconsistencies are too huge. I mean, Adam used to walk with God in the garden and Yehovah would drop in on Abraham for coffee. The idea that you would die if you saw him entered later to answer the question, "Hey, Moses, if God is giving you directions for US, why can't WE see him?!" But God is basically a man, a king who lives in the sky. Those who have seen him have seen a man. Now if God is a man and Jesus is a man and they are both "God" then if you see Jesus you have seen God. So John 1:18 makes no sense if Jesus is himself God. Why would he have to "expound" God? He is right there in front of everyone! God is a man!

Is this statement true?:

"God is a man."

>>>Comapare 1 John 1: 1-3. What happens to sinners who are in rebellion against God when they are exposed to His complete, unvieled glory?

"Glory" in Ex 33 means "shine" or "radiance." Moses asked to see his glory and could not stand to see it.

But didn't Moses speak with God face to face?

Ex 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Anyway, from my perspective, it is all too inconsistent to formulate anything worth discussing.

>>>Look what happened to soldiers in the presence of God's angels (Matt. 28: 1-4). Imagine what would happened if it was not an angel but God Himself.

Yes, Matthew's account is very sensational compared with the others!

Joh 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Mark 16:

2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?

4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.

5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

I'm sure someone has some "multiplied entities" explanation for these inconsistencies, but they are plain as day.

I'm not "a vicious enemy trying to ferret out inconsistencies," here. I'm just being honest.

[John317]

>>>Check out Exodus 33:18-23. Look at the context of John 1:18. Christ was God vieled in human flesh so we could see Him. Sinful mankind cannot see God as He is in Himself, in His full glory.

Well, this is one of the problems with discussing the Bible. I try very hard to follow the logic and have it all cohere, but sometimes the inconsistencies are too huge. I mean, Adam used to walk with God in the garden and Yehovah would drop in on Abraham for coffee. The idea that you would die if you saw him entered later to answer the question, "Hey, Moses, if God is giving you directions for US, why can't WE see him?!" But God is basically a man, a king who lives in the sky. Those who have seen him have seen a man. Now if God is a man and Jesus is a man and they are both "God" then if you see Jesus you have seen God. So John 1:18 makes no sense if Jesus is himself God. Why would he have to "expound" God? He is right there in front of everyone! God is a man!

Is this statement true?:

"God is a man."

No, God as He is in Himself is not a man. God is Spirit. The Bible says, "God is not a man that He should lie."

When did Adam speak face to face with God in the Garden? That was before the Fall. We do not know the details of how God and Adam communicated after the Fall. It says He spoke to Adam and Eve, but it does not indicate that they saw Him.

God has appeared in human form at time to speak with humans, but they are not seeing God in His full glory.

Think about what Jesus did: he veiled his divinity by becoming human. He took on a human body.

>>>Comapare 1 John 1: 1-3. What happens to sinners who are in rebellion against God when they are exposed to His complete, unvieled glory?

Quote:

BILL-- "Glory" in Ex 33 means "shine" or "radiance." Moses asked to see his glory and could not stand to see it.

But didn't Moses speak with God face to face?

Ex 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

If we go by the texts, such as Exodus 33, it is apparent that Moses did not actually see God in His full glory but that God hid it in order to protect Moses. Speaking with God face to face simply means that Moses and God had a very close relationship, which is shown in Ex. 33. The text specifically says "you cannot see my face. No man can see Me (i.e., in his full glory, completely unveiled) and live."

Quote:

BILL---Anyway, from my perspective, it is all too inconsistent to formulate anything worth discussing.

OK.

JOHN3:17-- >>>Look what happened to soldiers in the presence of God's angels (Matt. 28: 1-4). Imagine what would happened if it was not an angel but God Himself.

Quote:

BILL-- Yes, Matthew's account is very sensational compared with the others!

I believe all of the BIble, including Matt. We all have to decide what we will believe. You choose to believe the Bible is simply a human document. I have decided after long study and reflection that it's much more than a human invention but is the Word of God.

[John317]

I'm not "a vicious enemy trying to ferret out inconsistencies," here. I'm just being honest.

You are free to express your opinion and viewpoint on the issues, Bill. I don't get into motives. I can't read your heart and mind. I hope you find friends on the Forum and that God will bless your search for the truth as it is in Jesus Christ and convict you of it when you see it.

[BibleShockers]

>>>No, God as He is in Himself is not a man. God is Spirit. The Bible says, "God is not a man that He should lie."

Actually, what Moses says is "I am not as a man who lies":

Nu 23:19 God is not [as] a man, that he should lie [who lies]; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Here is the LXXe:

Nu 23:19 God is not as man to waver, nor as the son of man to be threatened; shall he say and not perform? shall he speak and not keep to his word?

Do "spirits" breath air? God does. When God molded clay into a statue of himself, how did it look? Do "spirits" eat food with their friends? How does Jesus sit next to a "spirit?" What do people see when they see him sitting on his throne?:

Da 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

>>>When did Adam speak face to face with God in the Garden? That was before the Fall. We do not know the details of how God and Adam communicated after the Fall. It says He spoke to Adam and Eve, but it does not indicate that they saw Him.

What difference does it make if it is after the "fall" or not? (Humans did not "fall.") How does that affect "no man" at "any time?"

Gen 3:

8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

9 ¶ And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Ge 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Ge 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Ge 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

Ge 26:2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

Ge 26:24 And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham’s sake.

Ge 35:1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother.

Ge 35:7 And he built there an altar, and called the place Elbethel: because there God appeared unto him, when he fled from the face of his brother.

Ge 35:9 And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.

Ge 48:3 And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,

>>>God has appeared in human form at time to speak with humans, but they are not seeing God in His full glory.

The "see God and die" thing is so corny. What would the autopsy say? Of course, Peter, James and John saw Jesus' glory and did ok.

>>>Think about what Jesus did: he veiled his divinity by becoming human. He took on a human body.

So what happened on the mount of configuration? They Jesus AND his glory, right?:

2 Peter 1:

16 ¶ For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Matthew 17:

1 ¶ And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: ***and his face did shine

as the sun***, and his raiment was white as the light.

Mark 9:

1 ¶ And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

Luke 9:

28 ¶ And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, ***they saw his glory***, and the two men that stood with him.

The text doesn't say "No man has seen God's glory at any time." It says no man has seen God at any time. So did Peter see God when he Jesus? James? John? Abraham saw God. Moses saw God. Isaiah saw God. Stephen saw God. Daniel saw God.

>>>If we go by the texts, such as Exodus 33, it is apparent that Moses did not actually see God in His full glory but that God hid it in order to protect Moses.

So he did not speak to God face to face as a man speaks with his friend?

>>>Speaking with God face to face simply means that Moses and God had a very close relationship, which is shown in Ex. 33. The text specifically says "you cannot see my face. No man can see Me (i.e., in his full glory, completely unveiled) and live."

That's not consistent.

>>>I believe all of the BIble, including Matt.

But do you think it is consistent concerning the accounts of the resurrection? An honest reading reveals plainly that they are very different and cannot be harmonized.

[John317]

>>>No, God as He is in Himself is not a man. God is Spirit. The Bible says, "God is not a man that He should lie."

Actually, what Moses says is "I am not as a man who lies":

Nu 23:19 God is not [as] a man, that he should lie [who lies]; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Here is the LXXe:

Nu 23:19 God is not as man to waver, nor as the son of man to be threatened; shall he say and not perform? shall he speak and not keep to his word?

Do "spirits" breath air? God does. When God molded clay into a statue of himself, how did it look? Do "spirits" eat food with their friends? How does Jesus sit next to a "spirit?" What do people see when they see him sitting on his throne?:

Da 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

If you want to believe that God the Father is a man and not Spirit, that is your right to believe it.

All I can say to you is that I hope and pray you keeping studying and reading the Bible with a heart and mind open to the Holy Spirit.

You're trying to think about these things through human reason alone, while the Bible teaches that reason will not help us to understand anything about God apart from His special revelation. If an individual will not first accept what God has deigned to reveal about Himself in the Holy Scriptures, he will be as helpless as as blind man feeling around in the dark.

[BibleShockers]

>>>If you want to believe that God the Father is a man and not Spirit, that is your right to believe it.

Do you believe that the Bible says that God is in the sky? Or "everywhere and nowhere?" Or in "Heaven" (capital H - which has not actual location because it is "spirit")?

>>>All I can say to you is that I hope and pray you keeping studying and reading the Bible with a heart and mind open to the Holy Spirit.

Ugh. Shame on your for hiding your blind devotion to your dogma on "the Holy Spirit".

>>>You're trying to think about these things through human reason alone, while the Bible teaches that reason will not help us to understand anything about God apart from His special revelation.

Meaning that if I had "the Holy Spirit" to guide me then I would see "The Doctrine of the Trinity" and "Ellen White" loom large in the pages? Well, he does say that he will put a lying breath in the prophets:

1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2Ch 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.

2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a [the] lie:

>>>If an individual will not first accept what God has deigned to reveal about Himself in the Holy Scriptures...

Um, Ellen White? Trinity Dogma?

[John317]

>>>If an individual will not first accept what God has deigned to reveal about Himself in the Holy Scriptures...

Um, Ellen White?

Seventh-day Adventists believe:

18. The Gift of Prophecy:

One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

We don't test the Bible by Ellen White but Ellen White's writings by the Bible.

I personally am convinced that the Bible fully supports the doctrine of the Trinity. The Seventh-day Adventist church believes the same.

[John317]

John3:17-- >>>If you want to believe that God the Father is a man and not Spirit, that is your right to believe it.

Quote:

BILL -- Do you believe that the Bible says that God is in the sky? Or "everywhere and nowhere?" Or in "Heaven" (capital H - which has not actual location because it is "spirit")?

I believe exactly what the Bible teaches on this. The best places to read about this is in Genesis and Psalms, Isaiah, John, Hebrews, and Revelation. I believe that God the Father can be everywhere at once. But I believe that His sanctuary or temple is in heaven. I believe heaven is a real place, just as real as any place on earth.

There are many good sources for learning what Seventh-day Adventists believe on this topic as well as on others. There are many books as well as many sources to be found online.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- >>>All I can say to you is that I hope and pray you keeping studying and reading the Bible with a heart and mind open to the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

BILL-- Ugh. Shame on your for hiding your blind devotion to your dogma on "the Holy Spirit".

Based on the Bible, who do you believe, or what do you believe, the Holy Spirit is?

Take a look at Acts 5: 1-4. Who is the Holy Spirit in that passage?

You might look carefully at every Bible passage referring to the Holy Spirit. Ask God to help you understand what you are reading and to give you a mind ready to listen and learn and change if that is what God wants you to do. We are liable to twist the Scriptures apart from the guidance of the Spirit. The attitude with which we read the Bible has a great deal to do with what we learn from it and what we take away from our study of it. Twisting the Scritpures can only do us great spiritual harm. See 2 Peter 3: 15, 16.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- >>>You're trying to think about these things through human reason alone, while the Bible teaches that reason will not help us to understand anything about God apart from His special revelation.

Quote:

BILL ROSS-- Meaning that if I had "the Holy Spirit" to guide me then I would see "The Doctrine of the Trinity" and "Ellen White" loom large in the pages? Well, he does say that he will put a lying breath in the prophets:

1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2Ch 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.

2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a [the] lie:

The verses you quote are important and very true verses. But there are also many other, equally important and true verses on the same subject.

There are ways of telling the difference between a lie and the truth. God had not left us without the ability to know the truth if we really want to know. Are you familiar with the Bible tests for how distinguishing truth from error?

[BibleShockers]

>>>Based on the Bible, who do you believe, or what do you believe, the Holy Spirit is?

Take a look at Acts 5: 1-4. Who is the Holy Spirit in that passage?

John, we've already discussed this. You were not able to refute my reading, remember?

What is the Greek for "the Holy Spirit?" Where do you see that name in the Bible?

[John317]

>>>Based on the Bible, who do you believe, or what do you believe, the Holy Spirit is?

Take a look at Acts 5: 1-4. Who is the Holy Spirit in that passage?

John, we've already discussed this. You were not able to refute my reading, remember?

What is the Greek for "the Holy Spirit?" Where do you see that name in the Bible?

We've hardly discussed it. Not sure what you have in mind. Why don't you copy and paste or tell me which post you are talking about?

But no, as far as I know, we have never discussed at any depth the meaning of Acts 5: 1-4. Mention may have been made of it but that is not studying it.

Have you ever looked at every Bible verse dealing with the topic of the Holy Spirit?

The Bible only gives Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek words, so of course the English words, "Holy Spirit," are not in the Bible without translation.

hagia is "holy," and pneuma can be translated as "spirit," "wind," or "breath." If you go to the Strong's or Young's comprehensive concordances of the Bible, you will find them there and in many places in the New Testament. Look up all or many of them and see what the Bible teaches about it. Then we can talk about it.

[BibleShockers]

Re: Acts 5:1-4...

I try very hard not to get into the Greek because it tends to open a can of worms, I think it is so wonderfully instructive here.

"...pseusasqai se to pneuma to agion..."

KJV: "to lie to the Holy Ghost"

But note that TO PNEUMA TO hAGION is in the accusative, not the genetive or dative (and there is of course no preposition).

Note that PSEUSAQAI SE contains the accusative pronoun used reflexively!

PSEUSAQAI can mean to "lie" or "pretend":

Here Paul says "I'm not pretending":

1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie <5574> not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

So, the passage is "...to pretend to holy breath..."

For an example of lying **to** someone:

Col 3:9 Lie <5574> not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

So can you see how wickedly the KJV translators, NIV translators and what not ignored the Greek and "pretended holy breath?"

Christians NEVER get anything right because they are fundamentally liars at heart.

[John317]

Christians NEVER get anything right because they are fundamentally liars at heart.

Bill, if you want to attack or argue evidence regarding ideas and evidence, that is fine; but do not assume that you can read hearts. I do not talk about your heart or motives. We don't do that on the Forum. Stop it.

[BibleShockers]

>>>Bill, if you want to attack ideas and evidence, that is fine; but do not assume that you can read hearts. I do not talk about your heart or motives. We don't do that on the Forum. Stop it.

John, do you know Greek well enough to tell if I am correct in my analysis of this double accusative passage? If not, do you know someone who can evaluate my analysis?

I mean, no Christian version even provides a footnote that I am aware of to explain their tortured reading (not even the Next Bible).

As far as I know, this is THE prooftext of "the deity of the Holy Ghost!"

So what am I to think? Do I lack "direct divine revelation from the divine Holy Ghost" - or am I correct that there is no such thing?

[John317]

Re: Acts 5:1-4...

I try very hard not to get into the Greek because it tends to open a can of worms, I think it is so wonderfully instructive here.

"...pseusasqai se to pneuma to agion..."

KJV: "to lie to the Holy Ghost"

But note that TO PNEUMA TO hAGION is in the accusative, not the genetive or dative (and there is of course no preposition).

Note that PSEUSAQAI SE contains the accusative pronoun used reflexively!

PSEUSAQAI can mean to "lie" or "pretend".......

So, the passage is "...to pretend to holy breath..."

What's the can of worms in the Greek of Acts 5: 1-4?

Please prayerfully and thoughtfully study the following:

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit not forgiven--- Matt. 12: 31, 32

God gives the Holy Spirit to the obedient-- Acts 5: 32

Teach, baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit-- Matt. 28: 19.

The Holy Spirit sanctifies-- 1 Peter 1: 2

Christians are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise-- Eph. 1: 13

The Holy Spirit may be "grieved"--- Eph. 4: 30

Jesus speaks of the the Holy Spirit as the comforter-- John 16: 7-11

Sons of God are those led by the Spirit of God-- romans 8: 14

But when the comforter (the Holy Spirit) is come.. John 15: 26

The Holy Spirit will teach and bring to remembrance-- John 14: 26

Fruits of the Spirit-- Gal. 5: 22, 23

We are not of Christ if we have not the Spirit of God-- Romans 8: 9

The body is the temple of God-- the Spirit of God lives there-- 1 Cor. 3: 16

Ask for the Holy Spirit--- Luke 11: 13

The Holy Spirit will lead you to faith in Christ and teach you the truth as it is in Jesus.

Have you asked for and received the Holy Spirit? Are you led by the Holy Spirit?

[BibleShockers]

>>>So, the passage is "...to pretend to holy breath..."

Actually, better "to fake holy breath." That is what I meant to say. Or "fake yourself holy breath."

>>>What's the can of worms in the Greek of Acts 5: 1-4?

I'll wait to see what you say. Probably "but how can so many brilliant translators be wrong and you right?" or some other logical fallacy.

>>>Please prayerfully and thoughtfully study the following:

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit not forgiven--- Matt. 12: 31, 32...

Look. You really should answer my questions and points instead of just changing the subject and dumping more "snow" over everything. Tell me, what is the Greek of "the Holy Spirit." How is "his" name written? These verses you cite are all over the map in terms of their Greek structure. For example, Matt 12:31 does not even CONTAIN the word "holy."

I tire of your "dumping." Show me the Greek words for "the Holy Spirit." It is dishonest to take any appearance of PNEUMA (which just means "breath") and "translate it" as "the Holy Spirit."

Dishonest. Deceitful.

Find the Greek text and we'll discuss those verses that contain it.

[John317]

>>>Bill, if you want to attack ideas and evidence, that is fine; but do not assume that you can read hearts. I do not talk about your heart or motives. We don't do that on the Forum. Stop it.

John, do you know Greek well enough to tell if I am correct in my analysis of this double accusative passage? If not, do you know someone who can evaluate my analysis?

I mean, no Christian version even provides a footnote that I am aware of to explain their tortured reading (not even the Next Bible).

As far as I know, this is THE prooftext of "the deity of the Holy Ghost!"

So what am I to think? Do I lack "direct divine revelation from the divine Holy Ghost" - or am I correct that there is no such thing?

1) Acts 5:1-6 (Young's Literal Translation)

1And a certain man, Ananias by name, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2and did keep back of the price -- his wife also knowing -- and having brought a certain part, at the feet of the apostles he laid [it].

3And Peter said, `Ananias, wherefore did the Adversary fill thy heart, for thee to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back of the price of the place?

4while it remained, did it not remain thine? and having been sold, in thy authority was it not? why [is] it that thou didst put in thy heart this thing? thou didst not lie to men, but to God;'

5and Ananias hearing these words, having fallen down, did expire, and great fear came upon all who heard these things,

6and having risen, the younger men wound him up, and having carried forth, they buried [him].

2) New American Standard:

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has ©Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?

"While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."3)

English Standard Version--

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

I could give you over 65 such translations of those verses and all of them say the same thing.

Do you know of a single translation that translates Acts 5: 3, 4 like you think it should be translated according to your understanding of the Greek?

[BibleShockers]

>>>I could give you over 65 such translations of those verses and all of them say the same thing.

Do you know of a single translation that translates Acts 5: 3, 4 like you think it should be translated according to your understanding of the Greek?

At least you are CONSISTENTLY Ad Hominem! (And ad populem).

Do you read Greek?

[John317]

>>>So, the passage is "...to pretend to holy breath..."

Actually, better "to fake holy breath." That is what I meant to say. Or "fake yourself holy breath."

>>>What's the can of worms in the Greek of Acts 5: 1-4?

Your translation of "fake yourself holy breath," proves that you don't know what a first year Greek student should know. For the same reason you earlier thought that it was proper to translate John 1:1 as "And God was the word," etc. And there was the mistake of thinking that ho logos is neuter.

My friend, in view of this, I believe you would be better off just taking a few good translations and letting God speak to you through them, rather than thinking that you can prove all these translations wrong when it's perfectly obvious that you are not a competent translator of koine Greek. A competent translator would not reject all 10 of the very best translations of John 1: 1 and John 1: 18, for instance. A good translator is not going to ignore dozens and dozens of translations and all of the Greek dictionaries, lexicons, teachers of Greek, and text books.

[John317]

>>>I could give you over 65 such translations of those verses and all of them say the same thing.

Do you know of a single translation that translates Acts 5: 3, 4 like you think it should be translated according to your understanding of the Greek?

At least you are CONSISTENTLY Ad Hominem! (And ad populem).

Do you read Greek?

Do you know of a single translation that translates Acts 5: 3, 4 like you think it should be translated according to your understanding of the Greek?

[BibleShockers]

>>>...A good translator is not going to ignore dozens and dozens of translations and all of the Greek dictionaries, lexicons, teachers of Greek, and text books....

You are consistent.

So can you provide the fault in my reading using Greek grammar and not just an appeal to other translations?

And can you provide the Greek for the term "the Holy Spirit?"

And show where it appears in the text?

You keep with the ad hominem/ad populem, changing the subject, etc, but never giving a sound APOLOGIA.

[John317]

Bill, the way you translated Acts 5: 4, as "fake yourself holy breath," shows that you don't know the difference between active and middle. Other things you've said about translations, especially your being unable to agree to any translation given, shows me that you either do not know Greek well enough to discuss it or else you are involved in some kind of game. I think anyone can see this by comparing all of your posts up to this point.

It is irrational for anyone to expect others who do not know you to accept your very peculiar translations and reject all of the translations made by hundreds of the world's leading translators and experts in their fields. Even after I have given you evidence from well-known, highly respected texts on Greek, as well as dozens of highly regarded translations, you keep insisting that they are wrong and you are right.

Here in this last post you asked me to explain why your translation is wrong, yet when I have explained this in the past, you did not even pay attention to what I said. I have never asked you to accept my word for anything but have always substantiated what I said with documentation.

Recently you've accused all Christians of being "liars at heart," and the King James translators and others of being dishonest.

There is, therefore, I'm sorry to say, simply no sense in continuing the conversation about this with you. Enough is enough.