Will believers be judged by the law?

[John317]

JOHN3:17--->>>What do the standard Greek-English Lexicons say about the word, theothtos?

[bILL ROSS-- This would be a good time for you to revisit Occam's Razor.

How many of the following translations do you accept?

I could give you 55 more but these will have to do. They all look good to me. Some are more literal than others, but they all tell the truth about who Jesus Christ is.

I find it amazingly wonderful news that God in Jesus Christ came to this earth and lived here and died for me and all the other people on this earth, including you, Bill. What unbelievable love!

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

.......................................................

King James Bible

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

.......................................................

American King James Version

For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

.......................................................

American Standard Version

for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,

.......................................................

Bible in Basic English

For in him all the wealth of God's being has a living form,

.......................................................

Douay-Rheims Bible

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally;

.......................................................

Darby Bible Translation

For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily;

.......................................................

English Revised Version

for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,

.......................................................

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)

All of God lives in Christ's body,

.......................................................

Tyndale New Testament

For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily,

.......................................................

Weymouth New Testament

For it is in Christ that the fulness of God's nature dwells embodied, and in Him you are made complete,

.......................................................

Webster's Bible Translation

For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

.......................................................

World English Bible

For in him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily,

.......................................................

Young's Literal Translation

because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,

.......................................................

[John317]

No wait, I believe it was used in 3 Maccabees where it was translated by LXXe as "the knowledge of divine matters."

I don't have my hard copy of the LXX so I can't put my finger on it. Right now.

As soon as you find it, please give me chapter and verse, would you, please? Thanks, Bill.

[BibleShockers]

>>>1) Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon (p. 288) reads, "deity i.e. the state of being God, Godhead; Col. ii.9." Then it says, "Theoths deity differs from Theioths divinity, as essence differs from quality or attribute."

Thayer's is not a highly regarded source. And the distinction between THEOTHS and THEIOTHS is discounted by Nash and others:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3268966

>>>It is interesting to note that Joseph Thayer was not a Trinitarian but a member of the Unitarian church. Therefore it cannot be said that he was prejudice in favor of the Trinity.

Good for him.

>>>2) A Greek-English Lexicon, Baur Arndt Gingrich,p. 359, "Theoths... to plhrwma ths th. the fullness of deity Col. 2: 9...."

This source give many other extra-Biblical sources, including Plut, Lucia, Icarom., Herm., as Hm 10 and Hm. 11, where the word also means deity.

I hate to put you through too much trouble, but would you be a dear and cite the quotes? I am particularly interested in any that pre-date Paul. I have the Heliod quote, which appears in LJS. Here it is:

LJS

theotês, êtos, hê, divinity, divine nature, Ep.Col.2.9, Plu.2.359d, Luc.

Icar.9, etc.; dia theotêta for religious reasons, Heliod.ap.Orib.50.7.1.

Notice that though he provides the usual "divinity", the quote he cites does not relate to divinity. It relates to "divine matters." That is what I believe the word actually means. So, my usage is attested twice. By Paul (who may well have coined the term, and Heliod, who uses it in the same way.

I don't care that the other lexicons have the same take. But I am interested in seeing a complete list of the extant pre-Paul or circa Paul usages...

[BibleShockers]

>>>How many of the following translations do you accept?

I could give you 50 more but these will have to do. I can accept all of them, Bill....

When the blind lead the blind they all fall into the same ditch, one after the other.

[John317]

If I remember my studies correctly, and I think I do, this is probably the oldest attested usage of the word, so Paul may have coined the word. It appears Paul coined several new words.

Yes, let's by all means examine the context. Context is king just like you said. I agree. So what is the context of Col. 2: 9? That can be our next study, but I will have to participate in this in the next several days, my good friend, because I am flying to Denver tomorrow. I live near Los Angeles, so it is only a hop, skip and a jump that takes all of 2 hours.

I'm going there to cover the events that take place outside the convention center. I'm not a demonstrator but I know some of these people from the time I was in the Socialist Youth Alliance. Most of the people in Denver will be anarchists and self-described Marxists. I'm for peace, but I know that most of the people going there are wishing for confrontation and trouble.

[John317]

>>>How many of the following translations do you accept?

I could give you 50 more but these will have to do. I can accept all of them, Bill....

When the blind lead the blind they all fall into the same ditch, one after the other.

You gotta be joking, my friend. Oh well.

Hey can you tell all the info that the BDAG gives for theoths?

[John317]

When the blind lead the blind they all fall into the same ditch, one after the other.

That can be true, Bill, but in this case....

Do you know how many top-notch translators and scholar were involved in order to produce all those translations? Hundreds. Then you have the evidence below. But yet everyone is supposed to reject their evidence and reasoning and accept...... well, what exactly? What exactly do you have to offer? I am not putting you down, Bill, but I am only trying to reason with you about the evidence.

You want people to reject all this evidence and accept your word for it. Tell why you believe people ought to accept your understanding as opposed to the following evidence and all the translations, especially in view of the fact that they harmonize with everything else the Bible says about Christ and with the context. Let's look carefully at the context, next.

1) Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon (p. 288) reads, "deity i.e. the state of being God, Godhead; Col. ii.9." Then it says, "Theoths deity differs from Theioths divinity, as essence differs from quality or attribute."

It is interesting to note that Joseph Thayer was not a Trinitarian but a member of the Unitarian church. Therefore it cannot be said that he was prejudice in favor of the Trinity.

2) A Greek-English Lexicon, Baur Arndt Gingrich,p. 359, "Theoths... to plhrwma ths th. the fullness of deity Col. 2: 9...."

This source give many other extra-Biblical sources, including Plut, Lucia, Icarom., Herm., as Hm 10 and Hm. 11, where the word also means deity.

[BibleShockers]

Ok, here is the verse in the LXX. It is 4 Macc 1:16. Here is it parsed:

4Mac 1:16

SOFI/A N1A NSF SOFI/A

DH\ X DH/

TOI/NUN X TOI/NUN

E)STI\N V9 PAI3S EI)MI/

GNW=SIS N3I NSF GNW=SIS

***QEI/WN A1A GPN QEI=OS***

KAI\ C KAI/

A)NQRWPI/NWN A1 GPN A)NQRW/PINOS

PRAGMA/TWN N3M GPN PRA=GMA

KAI\ C KAI/

TW=N RA GPN O(

TOU/TWN RD GPN OU(=TOS

AI)TIW=N N1A GPF AI)TI/A

Here is the RSV (buy my version reads the same):

[16] Wisdom, next, is the knowledge of divine and human matters and the causes of these.

This would be the most likely background for Paul's usage of the term.

[John317]

Bill, guess who is trying to avoid evidence and look for a way out of the obvious. But that's OK. I am just pointing out the obvious.

What is the context of Col. 2:9?

Let's look at the whole context of 9: 12.

Let's compare two translations that help to get the overall sense of what is being said.

You can use any standard text. I'm not interested in your personal translation of it just yet. I would like to see it later, however. Could you give a translation that you agree to?

Here is the NIV, and another translation will be posted on the next post:

Colossians 2

1I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.

Freedom From Human Regulations Through Life With Christ

6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

[BibleShockers]

Why in the world would you post the NIV and ask if I agree with it? Certainly you know that I don't.

Please don't post more translations.

Review my posts. Make a point.

[John317]

OK, will the New American Standard do? Feel free to post any translations that you agree with showing Col. 2: 1-15, so that we can examine the context. I posted the NIV because it is easy to understand the context from that text. But we can do the same with the NASB or any other translation of your choice. I am having a hard time finding any translation that you agree with. Is there one as far as Col. 2: 1-15 is concerned?

1 For I want you to know how great a struggle I have on your behalf and for those who are at Laodicea, and for all those who have not personally seen my face,

2 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself,

3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument.

5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.

6Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,

7having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established [a]in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

[color:#FF0000]9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

10 and in Him you have been (X)made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

[John317]

Why in the world would you post the NIV and ask if I agree with it? Certainly you know that I don't.

Please don't post more translations.

Review my posts. Make a point.

My point is that the context of Col. 9: 5 is realizing that when we have Jesus Christ we have everything we need. We don't anyone or anything else, either philosophy or wisdom or any such thing. Why? Because Christ is fully God. As it says, in Christ we may have "the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."

There is no reason to allow anyone to seduce into meaningless philosophy when we have Jesus Christ. Why? Because, again, there is absolutely nothing superior to Him, for all the fullness of God lives in Him.

Christ is God's mystery, a mystery kept hidden in past ages but now revealed for the salvation of the world.

Does it make sense to substitute the word "knowledge of divine matter" or "divine things" in verse 9?

Let us try it:

"8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

9 For in Him all the fullness of divine things [or all the knowledge of divine matter] dwells in bodily form,

10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority...."

I don't see how that works, do you?

What does that even mean? Can you explain it in context and show that "all the knowledge of divine matter" is what's meant?

Especially show how this relates to verses such as 2, 3, 6-8, 10 and 15, where it is speaking of the absolute power of Christ over everything and urging us to have faith and confidence in Him.

[BibleShockers]

>>>OK, will the New American Standard do?

No. I told you not to bother.

>>>Feel free to post any translations that you agree with showing Col. 2: 1-15, so that we can examine the context.

I thought I gave you my translation. But if not, then here it is:

"for in him the whole of divine matters resides as a corpus."

If you find one that says that, then I will agree. If not, I don't, so don't bother posting it.

And what does "for in him dwells the fulness of the Godhead bodily" even mean? The adverb "bodily" describes "dwells." How did God's essence live corporally within Jesus?

[BibleShockers]

>>>...Does it make sense to substitute the word "knowledge of divine matter" or "divine things" in verse 9?

Let us try it:

"8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

9 For in Him all the fullness of divine things [or all the knowledge of divine matter] dwells in bodily form,

10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority...."

I don't see how that works, do you?

Um, yes. You don't need philosophy or Torah because all of the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are found in "Christ".

>>>What does that even mean? Can you explain it in context?

Done.

[John317]

>>>OK, will the New American Standard do?

No. I told you not to bother.

>>>Feel free to post any translations that you agree with showing Col. 2: 1-15, so that we can examine the context.

I thought I gave you my translation. But if not, then here it is:

"for in him the whole of divine matters resides as a corpus."

If you find one that says that, then I will agree. If not, I don't, so don't bother posting it.

And what does "for in him dwells the fulness of the Godhead bodily" even mean? The adverb "bodily" describes "dwells." How did God's essence live corporally within Jesus?

Are you saying that you cannot find a single translation online or in your house that suits you or that is correct in your judgment?

Give me a reason why I or anyone else, Bill, should reject 50+ translations and all the Lexicons, in order to accept your private translation, when you have demonstrated a lack of competence in that area?

[John317]

>>>...Does it make sense to substitute the word "knowledge of divine matter" or "divine things" in verse 9?

Let us try it:

"8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

9 For in Him all the fullness of divine things [or all the knowledge of divine matter] dwells in bodily form,

10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority...."

I don't see how that works, do you?

Um, yes. You don't need philosophy or Torah because all of the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are found in "Christ".

>>>What does that even mean? Can you explain it in context?

Done.

OK, let's assume for the time being that you are right and that the Greek means "all the knowledge of divine matter." What is that?

Let's suppose again that this is what it says. Why should it give me faith in Christ if he is merely a creature but I am told that all the knowledge of divine matter are found in Him? How does that help if I believe he committed sin and is a mere creature like myself?

Which do you prefer-- the fullness of divine things or all the knowledge of divine matter?

Are you saying, then, that verses 3 and 9 are saying the same thing?

[BibleShockers]

>>>Which do you prefer-- the fullness of divine things or all the knowledge of divine matter?

The idea (which is present in Macabbes) is "divine matters."

>>>Are you saying, then, that verses 3 and 9 are saying the same thing?

They are closely, closely related.

[John317]

>>>Which do you prefer-- the fullness of divine things or all the knowledge of divine matter?

The idea (which is present in Macabbes) is "divine matters."

>>>Are you saying, then, that verses 3 and 9 are saying the same thing?

They are closely, closely related.

Is it possible for you to give me 4 Macc. 1: 12- 18?

When I get to Denver I can check it out thoroughly in several translations as well as in the LXX. But right now I don't have access to it. Thanks.

Bill, I just can't believe you really believe all the stuff on your website. If you do, why are you spending time discussing these things and how can you talk like you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior? Please explain because I don't understand. You also have talked badly of "Christians" as if you don't consider yourself a disciple or follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. How can this be, friend? What is the matter? Please tell me.

[John317]

Ok, here is the verse in the LXX. It is 4 Macc 1:16. Here is it parsed:

4Mac 1:16

SOFI/A N1A NSF SOFI/A

DH\ X DH/

TOI/NUN X TOI/NUN

E)STI\N V9 PAI3S EI)MI/

GNW=SIS N3I NSF GNW=SIS

***QEI/WN A1A GPN QEI=OS***

KAI\ C KAI/

A)NQRWPI/NWN A1 GPN A)NQRW/PINOS

PRAGMA/TWN N3M GPN PRA=GMA

KAI\ C KAI/

TW=N RA GPN O(

TOU/TWN RD GPN OU(=TOS

AI)TIW=N N1A GPF AI)TI/A

Here is the RSV (buy my version reads the same):

[16] Wisdom, next, is the knowledge of divine and human matters and the causes of these.

This would be the most likely background for Paul's usage of the term.

Can you give me the reference for this verse in a Greek-English Lexicon? What Lexicon and what page? Gotta go.

[BibleShockers]

RSV 4 Mac 1:

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4496061

[John317]

Yes, I saw that. Thank you. I'll check it out in the LXX when I get to Denver this evening.

[BibleShockers]

>>>Yes, I saw that. Thank you. I'll check out in the LXX when I get to Denver this evening.

That Col 2 is refuting 4 Macc (or whoever wrote it) is extremely likely. 4 Macc is advocating philosophy, reason and law as the means of conquering sin and being complete. Paul says it is all found in Christ.

Have a safe trip.

[BibleShockers]

John 1:18 says that no man has seen God at any time. How is this possible if Jesus "is himself God" and plenty of people saw him?

[John317]

John 1:18 says that no man has seen God at any time. How is this possible if Jesus "is himself God" and plenty of people saw him?

Check out Exodus 33:18-23. Look at the context of John 1:18. Christ was God vieled in human flesh so we could see Him. Sinful mankind cannot see God as He is in Himself, in His full glory. Comapare 1 John 1: 1-3. What happens to sinners who are in rebellion against God when they are exposed to His complete, unvieled glory? Look what happened to soldiers in the presence of God's angels (Matt. 28: 1-4). Imagine what would happened if it was not an angel but God Himself.

[BibleShockers]

John, FYI, the word in 4 Mac is a masculine synonym for the one in Col. I don't have an LXX lexicon. I think I read that the feminine version was preferred as time went on.

The background of Col 2:9 is, it seems obvioius, either this specific chapter of 4 Mac or something just like it.

I think the LSJ translation of "religion" certainly works in Col 2:9 contextually.