Will believers be judged by the law?

[BibleShockers]

>>>Not by the name "Ten Commandments," true, but they are all supported by the New Testament.

One big difference between you and me is that I would feel ashamed to use such a bogus term as "the New Testament" but you have no compunction. This should be instructive to you.

>>>Certainly you don't think the New Testament gives Christians permission to disobey them, do you?

Who in their right mind thinks a Chrisian should be fretting over what the 10 commandments have to say?!

>>>The Law Of God

Old Testament

Deuteronomy 5:6-21 I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

ONE: Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

Um, did God bring you out of Egypt? I didn't think so. So why are you trying so desparately to become subject to what Peter described as an Egyptian bondage?

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

Get out of the bondage of Egypt!

>>>The Law Of God

New Testament

ONE: Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written,

Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

It is the height of absurdity that a Trinitarian should appeal to this verse!

But refresh my memory... Is this part of the 10 commandments?

>>>...Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

The word translated ridiculously "Godhead" should read "things for God."

In the interest of time, I'll stop here.

[John317]

[

>>>So, on the basis of what you know of the Bible, what does the Bible mean by "righteous" and "righteousness"?

Different things at different times. This is why lexicons (good ones) don't just supply a single usage of a word when in THE REAL WORLD, people use the same word for multiple purposes.

In order to bring forth new understand of the complexity of language, maybe you could supply "the meaning" of the word "gay?"

Hello?

Maybe this will help--

Notice that there is a standard of right and wrong: it's called the law of God or the Ten Commandments. It is commonly referred to as the moral law.

Definition of Righteousness---

dikaiosu/nh from (1342)

Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling

Dikaiosune dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay

in a broad sense: state of him who is as he ought to be, righteousness, the condition acceptable to God

the doctrine concerning the way in which man may attain a state approved of God

integrity, virtue, purity of life, rightness, correctness of thinking feeling, and acting

in a narrower sense, justice or the virtue which gives each his due

--------------

dikaiðwma from (1344)

Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling

Dikaioma dik-ah'-yo-mah

that which has been deemed right so as to have force of law

what has been established, and ordained by law, an ordinance

a judicial decision, sentence

of God

either the favourable judgment by which he acquits man and declares them acceptable to Him

unfavourable: sentence of condemnation

a righteous act or deed

==================

dikaiðwv from (1342)

Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling

Dikaios dik-ah'-yoce

Parts of Speech TDNT

Adverb None

Definition

just, agreeably to right

properly, as is right

uprightly, agreeable to the law of rectitude

Translated Words

KJV (5) - justly, 2; righteously, 2; to righteousness, 1;

NAS (5) - justly, 1; ought, 1; righteously, 2; uprightly, 1;

[BibleShockers]

>>>...Notice that there is a standard of right and wrong: it's called the law of God or the Ten Commandments. It is commonly referred to as the moral law....

The GREEK word DIKAIASOUNH has more than one usage. Are you not aware of that?

And yet, it NEVER (intrinsically) has ANY reference to the 10 commandments.

In other words, you are either deluded or flat out lying.

[John317]

JOHN3:17-- >>>...Notice that there is a standard of right and wrong: it's called the law of God or the Ten Commandments. It is commonly referred to as the moral law....

Quote:

BILL ----The GREEK word DIKAIASOUNH has more than one usage. Are you not aware of that?

And yet, it NEVER (intrinsically) has ANY reference to the 10 commandments.

In other words, you are either deluded or flat out lying.

Are you open to Bible evidence? After a while, I will prove what I am saying from the Bible. All one needs to do is be able to add 1 + 1 or 2+ 2. That easy.

It has direct reference to law, to a legal standard. It's called a way of knowing if something or someone is right or wrong, etc. It is like a ruler. How do you know if something is righteous or right if there is no standard?

In the US we have a standard, and it is called a constitution and state laws.

Well, God's government-- His rule or kingdom-- also has a law. It is called the law of love and it is expressed in the Ten Commandments, or Moral Law.

Guess who hates that law? Hint: The same one who hates God and Jesus Christ. He inspires people also to hate it. He is at war with God's law, and he is out to destroy it, and replace it with his own principles. What principles do you think Satan's are?

[BibleShockers]

>>>It has direct reference to law, to a legal standard.

? And you say so why? Is God not righteous? Does this mean that he is not in and of himself upright but rather conforms his behavior to silly mandates such as "rest on any day divisible by seven?"

>>>It's called a way of knowing if something or someone is right or wrong, etc. It is like a ruler.

So God is subject to what ruler exactly? What ruler requires him to rest on any day divisible in number by seven?

>>How do you know if something is righteous or right if there is no standard?

Um, conscience? Divine breath? "Common sense?"

>>>In the US we have a standard, and it is called a constitution and state laws.

Yes. And the Jews also have a standard.

>>>Well, God's government-- His rule or kingdom-- also has a law. It is called the law of love and it is expressed in the Ten Commandments, or Moral Law.

So you keep saying. Maybe if you repeat it long enough more airheads will be brainwahsed into believing that it is true?

[John317]

>>>...Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

The word translated ridiculously "Godhead" should read "things for God."

In the interest of time, I'll stop here.

The Greek word at Col. 2: 9. Check it out in any standard Greek lexicon or NT theological dictionary:

qeo/thv from (2316)

Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling

Theotes theh-ot'-ace

Parts of Speech TDNT

Noun Feminine 3:119,322

Definition

deity

the state of being God, Godhead

Translated Words

KJV (1) - Godhead, 1;

NAS (1) - Deity, 1;

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- >>>and He was exhibited perfectly all the above characteristics. The Bible says His disciples will walk as Jesus walked. Therefore it is obvious that Jesus disciples will keep all of God's commandments.

How did someone who was a creature, as you believe Jesus was, become above the law and become Lord (owner) of the Sabbath?

Jesus came here to show us what God was like. Part of his reason for coming also was to show us how to live. He commands us to live as He lived. Therefore, he voluntarily submitted Himself to the moral laws of God just as He submitted to the laws of heredity and the physical laws.

[BibleShockers]

>>>The Greek word at Col. 2: 9. Check it out in any standard Greek lexicon or NT theological dictionary:...

I don't know how much you know about classical philology, but when a word is as poorly attested as this word is, you have little to go on but context. The lexicons are on equal footing, having to divine a word by one or two usages and maybe a hit from the etymology.

So let's look at the context:

Col 2:

1 ¶ For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 ¶ And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead [divine matters] bodily.

Is it not obvious that what is at issue in this text is the knowledge of God? The *things* of God.

So also in the context of Acts, is this really a passage where Paul is telling the heathen that God is not silver? Hello? No, he is saying that what you render to God is not silver but rather faith. God has no need of silver.

"For in him resides all of the fulness of the matters of God as a corpus."

[BibleShockers]

>>>How did someone who was a creature, as you believe Jesus was, become above the law and become Lord (owner) of the Sabbath?

I don't indulge in foolish speculations.

>>>Jesus came here to show us what God was like.

Yes!

>>>Part of his reason for coming also was to show us how to live.

He did leave us an example.

>>He commands us to live as He lived.

What are you referring to?

>>>Therefore, he voluntarily submitted Himself to the moral laws of God just as He submitted to the laws of heredity and the physical laws.

Are you suggesting that when Jesus was born he had to consciously will himself earthward rather than fly away in defiance of gravity?

[John317]

>>>The Greek word at Col. 2: 9. Check it out in any standard Greek lexicon or NT theological dictionary:...

I don't know how much you know about classical philology, but when a word is as poorly attested as this word is, you have little to go on but context. The lexicons are on equal footing, having to divine a word by one or two usages and maybe a hit from the etymology.

So let's look at the context:

Col 2:

1 ¶ For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 ¶ And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead [divine matters] bodily.

Is it not obvious that what is at issue in this text is the knowledge of God? The *things* of God.

So also in the context of Acts, is this really a passage where Paul is telling the heathen that God is not silver? Hello? No, he is saying that what you render to God is not silver but rather faith. God has no need of silver.

"For in him resides all of the fulness of the matters of God as a corpus."

Look at two translations with the full context:

1I want you to know what a struggle I am going through for you, for God's people at Laodicea, and for all of those followers who have never met me.

2I do it to encourage them. Then as their hearts are joined together in love, they will be wonderfully blessed with complete understanding. And they will truly know Christ. Not only is he the key to God's mystery,

3but all wisdom and knowledge are hidden away in him.

4I tell you these things to keep you from being fooled by fancy talk.

5Even though I am not with you, I keep thinking about you. I am glad to know that you are living as you should and that your faith in Christ is strong.

Christ Brings Real Life

6You have accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord. Now keep on following him.

7Plant your roots in Christ and let him be the foundation for your life. Be strong in your faith, just as you were taught. And be grateful.

8Don't let anyone fool you by using senseless arguments. These arguments may sound wise, but they are only human teachings. They come from the powers of this world [a] and not from Christ.

9God lives fully in Christ.

10And you are fully grown because you belong to Christ, who is over every power and authority.

11Christ has also taken away your selfish desires, just as circumcision removes flesh from the body.

12And when you were baptized, it was the same as being buried with Christ. Then you were raised to life because you had faith in the power of God, who raised Christ from death.

And this:

1For I want you to know how great a (A)struggle I have on your behalf and for those who are at (B)Laodicea, and for all those who have not personally seen my face,

2that their ©hearts may be encouraged, having been (D)knit together in love, and attaining to all (E)the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a (F)true knowledge of (G)God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself,

3in whom are hidden all (H)the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4(I)I say this so that no one will delude you with (J)persuasive argument.

5For even though I am (K)absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your (L)good discipline and the (M)stability of your faith in Christ.

6Therefore as you have received (N)Christ Jesus the Lord, so (O)walk in Him,

7having been firmly (P)rooted and now being (Q)built up in Him and ®established [a]in your faith, just as you (S)were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

8(T)See to it that no one takes you captive through (U)philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the (V)elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

9For in Him all the (W)fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

10and in Him you have been (X)made complete, and (Y)He is the head over all (Z)rule and authority;

11and in Him (AA)you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of (AB)the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

12having been (AC)buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also (AD)raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who (AE)raised Him from the dead.

Footnotes:

See: Colossians 2:9 : 2 Cor 5:19; Col 1:19; Hebrews 1: 13; Phil. 1: 6; John 1: 1-3, 14, 18; Rom 9:5; Rev. 22: 13.

[BibleShockers]

>>>Look at two translations with the full context:...

It is customary to have a point when you post hundreds of words.

[John317]

>>>Look at two translations with the full context:...

It is customary to have a point when you post hundreds of words.

Check out the words in red especially. Given the fact that you had just posted Col. 1-9, and made a remark about its meaning, I thought that the point was rather obvious.

But the point is the context of Col. 2: 9. The context is having confidence in Christ because of who He is. The same point is made in Rev. 3: 14. We can have total confidence in Christ and know that we have no need of anything besides Christ because He is God. He is no mere creature such as you and I are. He is over every power and authority.

[John317]

JOHN3:17-- >>>How did someone who was a creature, as you believe Jesus was, become above the law and become Lord (owner) of the Sabbath?

Quote:

Bill--- I don't indulge in foolish speculations.

Do you believe Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath?

What does that mean to say He is Lord of the Sabbath?

[BibleShockers]

>>>The point is the context of Col. 2: 9. The context is having confidence in Christ because of who He is. The same point is made in Rev. 3: 14. We can have total confidence in Christ and know that we have no need of anything besides Christ because He is God. He is no mere creature such as you and I are.

There is no mention in the passage of "having confidence in Christ because of his being God" - it is a passage about wisdom and knowledge OF GOD being embodied in him.

Rev 3:14 says that Jesus is the prince of the regime of God:

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel [deputy] of the church [assembly] of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true **witness**, the beginning [ARKH=prince] of the creation [KTISIS=regime] of God;

[BibleShockers]

>>>...What does that mean to say He is Lord of the Sabbath?

Yehovah used to be "the lord." I mean, by the first century, the name "Yehovah" had disappeared because the world had fallen under the sway of the awesome Greek culture. But it turns out that God retired for the moment from that role. He made Jesus the lord. Yehovah, the lord, became "the father" while Jesus became "the lord."

So you see Jesus taking on roles that God used to administrate himself. It is kind of like Josaph, who practically became Pharaoh of Egypt - almost but not quite.

As lord of the sabbath he was not beholden to any sabbath regulations. He could do whatever he pleased on any day he pleased as long as is it pleased his father.

This is the same privilege enjoyed by believers.

[John317]

>>>The point is the context of Col. 2: 9. The context is having confidence in Christ because of who He is. The same point is made in Rev. 3: 14. We can have total confidence in Christ and know that we have no need of anything besides Christ because He is God. He is no mere creature such as you and I are.

There is no mention in the passage of "having confidence in Christ because of his being God" - it is a passage about wisdom and knowledge OF GOD being embodied in him.

Just 2 verses.

See how they clearly are related to having confidence in Christ?----:

Col. 1: 6,7

6You have accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord. Now keep on following him.

7 Plant your roots in Christ and let him be the foundation for your life.

Quote:

Rev 3:14 says that Jesus is the prince of the regime of God:

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel [deputy] of the church [assembly] of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true **witness**, the beginning [ARKH=prince] of the creation [KTISIS=regime] of God;

What does it mean to say that Jesus is the Amen, the prince (or chief, or ruler) of God's creation? What is the point of Rev. 3: 14?

Do you know of a single translation that translates it as "regime"? Do you know of any Lexicon which says the word means "regime" in Rev. 3: 14?

What is "the regime" of God in the context of Rev. 3: 14?

[John317]

BILL-- ....As lord of the sabbath he was not beholden to any sabbath regulations. He could do whatever he pleased on any day he pleased as long as is it pleased his father.

This is the same privilege enjoyed by believers.

When did this become part of the New Covenant?

Why then did Jesus talk about what was "lawful" to do on the Sabbath? He never said to ignore God's commandment respecting the weekly Sabbath, did He?

See again Matt. 5. Did Jesus ever violate the Sabbath commandment or encourage others to do it?

Jesus spent more time talking about the Sabbath than about almost anything else. Why didn't Jesus just tell people to ignore the Sabbath? Why did He bother to talk about it so much and to show examples of how to keep it?

[John317]

JOHN3:17--- >>>...What does that mean to say He is Lord of the Sabbath?

Quote:

BILL ROSS-- Yehovah used to be "the lord." I mean, by the first century, the name "Yehovah" had disappeared because the world had fallen under the sway of the awesome Greek culture. But it turns out that God retired for the moment from that role. He made Jesus the lord. Yehovah, the lord, became "the father" while Jesus became "the lord."

So you see Jesus taking on roles that God used to administrate himself. It is kind of like Josaph, who practically became Pharaoh of Egypt - almost but not quite.

I don't suppose you get this information out of the Bible.

Why should I or anyone believe you in this theory?

Am I to believe that the God who created the Universe-- (Oh, yeah, that's right, you don't believe God made the world)--- chose a creature named Jesus and made Him Lord? Is this what you believe?

On what basis do you hold this belief?

If you stick around, I can prove that Jesus Christ is God, equal with the Father. We will devote a whole thread to the subject and look carefully at every relevant text, at any you choose besides.

Meantime, after tonight, I will be gone for a couple of days, because, God willing, I'm going to Denver. I'll be back online here as soon as I get settled there.

[BibleShockers]

>>>When did become part of the New Covenant?

What speak?

[John317]

>>>When did become part of the New Covenant?

What speak?

Originally Posted By: BibleShockers

BILL-- ....As lord of the sabbath he was not beholden to any sabbath regulations. He could do whatever he pleased on any day he pleased as long as is it pleased his father.

This is the same privilege enjoyed by believers.

When did this become part of the New Covenant?

Why then did Jesus talk about what was "lawful" to do on the Sabbath? He never said to ignore God's commandment respecting the weekly Sabbath, did He?

See again Matt. 5. Did Jesus ever violate the Sabbath commandment or encourage others to do it?

Jesus spent more time talking about the Sabbath than about almost anything else. Why didn't Jesus just tell people to ignore the Sabbath? Why did He bother to talk about it so much and to show examples of how to keep it?

[BibleShockers]

>>>I don't suppose you get this information out of the Bible.

I sure didn't get it from SDA drivel!

>>>Why should I or anyone believe you in this theory?

Evidence?

>>>Am I to believe that the God who created the Universe-- (Oh, yeah, that's right, you don't believe God made the world)---

Well, if Genesis is correct, in the beginning there was already an abyss. Can you read English?:

1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

>>>chose a creature named Jesus and made Him Lord? Is this what you believe?

Do you think that he was always lord?

Ac 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Php 2:

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name [role] which is above every name [role]:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

>>>On what basis do you hold this belief?

? I can read English.

>>>If you stick around, I can prove that Jesus Christ is God, equal with the Father.

YEOW! You have certainly been smokin' luncheon meat!

NOTE: Censors should start snipping NOW!

>>>We will devote a whole thread to the subject and look carefully at every relevant text, at any you choose besides.

You have nothing. Please get real.

>>I will be off gone for a couple of days, because I am going to Denver. I'll be back online here as soon as I get settled in there.

I can't wait.

[John317]

>>>Why should I or anyone believe you in this theory?

Evidence?

What is your evidence, Bill?

[John317]

>>>On what basis do you hold this belief?

? I can read English.

What English writings are you going by? Please give the references or copy and paste if you have anything that supports your theory.

[BibleShockers]

>>>When did this become part of the New Covenant?

I have no idea of what you speak.

>>>Why then did Jesus talk about what was "lawful" to do on the Sabbath? He never said to ignore God's commandment respecting the weekly Sabbath, did He?

He said that he was the lord of the sabbath and not a subject thereof.

>>>See again Matt. 5. Did Jesus ever violate the Sabbath commandment or encourage others to do it?

Paul claims that it was HE that would bring the gospel of justification by faith apart from works, rather than Jesus himself. Jesus was not sent to anyone but Jews:

Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

So why are you, a gentile, looking to Jesus for direction about the right relation to the law? Look to Paul.

>>>Jesus spent more time talking about the Sabbath than about almost anything else. Why didn't Jesus just tell people to ignore the Sabbath? Why did He bother to talk about it so much and to show examples of how to keep it?

I don't answer "why" questions. Just "what" questions.

[John317]

JOHN3:17-- >>>Am I to believe that the God who created the Universe-- (Oh, yeah, that's right, you don't believe God made the world)

Quote:

BILL ROSS-- Well, if Genesis is correct, in the beginning there was already an abyss. Can you read English?:

1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

That says that in the beginning God made the earth. He made it at first empty and without form. This does not say that in the beginning the earth was here and then God made something from matter that existed before He came on the scene.

It's necessary to consider everything the Bible says about the creation-- including Psalms, Isaiah, John, Revelation, Hebrews, Exodus, etc.