What did Christ and the disciples do on the Sabbath....

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

...Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for the benefit of mankind. He did not say the Sabbath was made for the Jew. In other words, the Sabbath was made to be a blessing for all people. Why would God make the Sabbath by blessing it, setting it apart from the rest of the days of the week, rest on it and then give that blessing only to a small percentage of the human race, about 3,000 years after making it?

In Mark 2:13-28, Christ is speaking to the Jews!

Yes, it is true that Jesus said these words in Mark 2: 28 to Jews. No question.

Now that this is agreed upon, what did Jesus say?

Who did Jesus say the Sabbath was made for? Jews?_______________ Or: Mankind (generic)? ___________________

[John317]

I might add that Mark 2:13-28 shows Christ DEFENDING the Jewish disciples for picking grain and eating it on the Sabbath Day (when they should have prepared the food the day ahead) and breaking the Sabbath. That is totally in the opposite what you tried to make it say. Christ, far from even remotely implying Sabbaths were binding upon the Gentile nations, Christ was defending even the Jews breaking the Sabbath for as little thing as hunger. Do you not see how terribly wrong it is then to remotely imply that the context of Mark 2:13-28 Christ was trying to make the Sabbath binding on Gentiles, while defending the Jewish disciples for breaking the Sabbath.

When Jesus was asked about the Sabbath, what did he say?--- "Is it _______________ to do good on the Sabbath?" See Matt. 12:12.

Thus when it came to determining what was right to do on the Sabbath, to what did Christ appeal? Conscience?_________________ Tradition?_______________ God's law?______________

Do you believe that Jesus was saying that it was OK to break the law of God?

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

I might add that Mark 2:13-28 shows Christ DEFENDING the Jewish disciples for picking grain and eating it on the Sabbath Day (when they should have prepared the food the day ahead) and breaking the Sabbath. That is totally in the opposite what you tried to make it say. Christ, far from even remotely implying Sabbaths were binding upon the Gentile nations, Christ was defending even the Jews breaking the Sabbath for as little thing as hunger. Do you not see how terribly wrong it is then to remotely imply that the context of Mark 2:13-28 Christ was trying to make the Sabbath binding on Gentiles, while defending the Jewish disciples for breaking the Sabbath.

When Jesus was asked about the Sabbath, what did he say?--- "Is it _______________ to do good on the Sabbath?" See Matt. 12:12.

It is good to do good any day. What you will never find is that Jesus remotely implied that Chinese, Japanese, Indians, Egyptians had to become Jewish to be Christian.

Thus when it came to determining what was right to do on the Sabbath, to what did Christ appeal? Conscience?_________________ Tradition?_______________ God's law?______________

Answer: Ah, the Gentiles, (Chinese, Japanese, Indians, Egyptians..etc) aren't concerned about the Sabbath day, they don't have any covenant with God regarding the Sabbath.

Do you believe that Jesus was saying that it was OK to break the law of God?

I see the problem for Adventism and to sum it up in a nut shell it's this:

Adventism, after 160 years of studying the bible doesn't know the difference between a Gentile and Jew and a Christian. Such lack fundamental knowledge of history secular and religious has become so confused by their theology that the in the final analysis, they believe that a Gentile has to become Jewish in order to be Christian. Frankly, that just simply makes my brain hurt!

You all TRULY don't know the difference between Ishmael and Jacob and each of their descendants.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

When Jesus was asked about the Sabbath, what did he say?--- "Is it _______________ to do good on the Sabbath?" See Matt. 12:12.

It is good to do good any day. What you will never find is that Jesus remotely implied that Chinese, Japanese, Indians, Egyptians had to become Jewish to be Christian.

Thus when it came to determining what was right to do on the Sabbath, to what did Christ appeal? Conscience?_________________ Tradition?_______________ God's law?______________

Answer: Ah, the Gentiles, (Chinese, Japanese, Indians, Egyptians..etc) aren't concerned about the Sabbath day, they don't have any covenant with God regarding the Sabbath.

Do you believe that Jesus was saying that it was OK to break the law of God? [/quote']

I see the problem for Adventism and to sum it up in a nut shell it's this:

Adventism, after 160 years of studying the bible doesn't know the difference between a Gentile and Jew and a Christian. Such lack fundamental knowledge of history secular and religious has become so confused by their theology that the in the final analysis, they believe that a Gentile has to become Jewish in order to be Christian. Frankly, that just simply makes my brain hurt!

You all TRULY don't know the difference between Ishmael and Jacob and each of their descendants.

You haven't studied Adventist views very much if you think that. See: http://www.preparingforeternity.com/br1914/brhccontents.htm

Why didn't you answer the questions?

[B Humble]

Admit it, you don't know the difference between the descendants of Jacob and the descendants of Ishmael. You think both were required to keep the Sabbath don't you? Yes or No?

[John317]

Admit it, you don't know the difference between the descendants of Jacob and the descendants of Ishmael. You think both were required to keep the Sabbath don't you? Yes or No?

(The question of the difference between the descendants of Isaac and Ishmael is a simple one, but it has no bearing on the Sabbath, as the 7th day Sabbath was a gift God made for all the families of the earth. We will see that as we get into the Gospels and into the book of Acts. We have a lot to cover, but let's go over these things slowly and deliberately. We can't cover everything at once. We need to keep an open mind and not draw conclusions before we look at the evidence. Do you agree with this?)

There is no question that God made the weekly Sabbath for all mankind, just as Jesus Christ Himself said. (Do you agree that it was the pre-incarnate Christ who made the Sabbath, as He made everything, according to John 1: 1-3?) The Sabbath was made before there was even a Jew and before there were different races of people. There was just one race at that time. So the Sabbath was created before sin entered the world. Its original intention had nothing to do with race or nationality.

When God called Israel out of Egypt, the Sabbath was given to them as a sign or symbol that they belonged to Him and were to be His special people for His purpose.

They were to tell other people about God, and as these people heard about God, they were also called to keep the Sabbath. We saw that in the book of Isaiah and other places. Gentiles who wanted to belong to God also were to keep the Lord's Sabbath.

You will notice that the Sabbath is never referred to as the "Jews Sabbath." It is called "the Sabbath of the Lord your God."

It is the Lord's Sabbath, not mine or yours or the Jews'.

And this same God is my Lord and your Lord. The same God who sanctified Israel is the God who sanctifies us. He is the Creator, the only true and living God. Do you believe this?

[Tallmark]

You can bring Jesus of the OT and NT into harmony, but you need an open mind. An open mind is one which accepts things that may be contrary to what a person has already been taught. Check out "Light on the Dark Side of God" by M M Campbell. Another good book is "Is God Really Like That?" by Paul Sweitzer.

I don't think that was Jesus that ordered stoning for Sabbath breaking, but the other lord, Satan. In the Old Testament times, the average citizen had over 200 gods. A god for prosperity, famine, sickness, health, rain, hurricanes, sunshine, etc. The Israelites told them that there was one God, therefore everything (good and bad) was blamed on Him. In the OT, Satan is only mentioned in Genesis, and Job.

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

Admit it, you don't know the difference between the descendants of Jacob and the descendants of Ishmael. You think both were required to keep the Sabbath don't you? Yes or No?

(The question of the difference between the descendants of Isaac and Ishmael is a simple one, but it has no bearing on the Sabbath, as the 7th day Sabbath was a gift God made for all the families of the earth. We will see that as we get into the Gospels and into the book of Acts. We have a lot to cover, but let's go over these things slowly and deliberately. We can't cover everything at once. We need to keep an open mind and not draw conclusions before we look at the evidence. Do you agree with this?)

There is no question that God made the weekly Sabbath for all mankind, just as Jesus Christ Himself said. (Do you agree that it was the pre-incarnate Christ who made the Sabbath, as He made everything, according to John 1: 1-3?) The Sabbath was made before there was even a Jew and before there were different races of people. There was just one race at that time. So the Sabbath was created before sin entered the world. Its original intention had nothing to do with race or nationality.

When God called Israel out of Egypt, the Sabbath was given to them as a sign or symbol that they belonged to Him and were to be His special people for His purpose.

They were to tell other people about God, and as these people heard about God, they were also called to keep the Sabbath. We saw that in the book of Isaiah and other places. Gentiles who wanted to belong to God also were to keep the Lord's Sabbath.

You will notice that the Sabbath is never referred to as the "Jews Sabbath." It is called "the Sabbath of the Lord your God."

It is the Lord's Sabbath, not mine or yours or the Jews'.

And this same God is my Lord and your Lord. The same God who sanctified Israel is the God who sanctifies us. He is the Creator, the only true and living God. Do you believe this?

[Robert]

And this same God is my Lord and your Lord. The same God who sanctified Israel is the God who sanctifies us. He is the Creator, the only true and living God. Do you believe this?

Yes, but the creation was ruined....Hence the Sabbath no longer points to a finished, perfect work. We've talked about this before, John. The Sabbath always points to a finished work.

On the other hand the work of sanctification is always ongoing and unfinished. What did EGW state? As long as life shall last there'll be no point that we can claim that we have arrived to perfection. So the Sabbath can't point to perfection until after the 1st resurrection. Then the Sabbath will symbolize a perfect re-creation, like it was for Adam and Eve at the first creation.

Rob

[John317]

... yes you believe that Ishmael and his descendants should keep the Sabbath day.

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- Yes, I do believe that God wants the whole world to acknowledge Him as their Creator, Savior and Lord, and to keep all of His commandments, including the 4th commandment, which is the Sabbath commandment. I certainly do believe this. An what is more, I can prove it to you if you stay here for a while and study these things with me. Will you do that?

Quote:

HUMBLE-- Do you have any idea how illiterate that is? It demonstrates an incredible lack of grasph history both secular and religious. You literally don't know the difference between a Jew and a Gentile. You can't even understand you own world without such basic elementary knowledge.

It may seem "illiterate" to you, friend, but I'm far from illiterate.

We have scarcely exchanged more than a few sentences. Come back and let's study the Bible seriously about these important things. You will find that I do know very well the difference between gentile and Jew.

I am a gentile by birth. That is, I am not a physical descendant of Jacob, but I am a spiritual Jew in the sense that I have inherited the promises of Abraham by placing my full faith in Jesus Christ. So I inherit the promises made by God to Abraham and Jacob. That makes me more Jewish spiritually than those Jews who reject Christ and lose the inheritance that God intended to give them.

[John317]

Quote:

Yes, but the creation was ruined....Hence the Sabbath no longer points to a finished, perfect work. We've talked about this before, John. The Sabbath always points to a finished work. [/quote']

Says a man named Jack Sequeira. Yes, I have heard that said many times before.

Do you believe that God wants both gentile and Jews to keep the Sabbath?

[B Humble]

John: Even though you profess to be a "gentile" by birth, you really don't understand what that means, because you think that Gentiles are really people that are supposed to be Jewish. Wow, that gives me a headache.

Anyway, let's have you answer my questions as to why the Prophets, were so negligent as to not 1 time give a command to the Gentiles to keep Sabbaths. I can't wait to see this answer. while your at it, explain to me why Joseph, who was "Ruler over ALL Egypt, didn't teach, preach or command Sabbaths to the Egyptians. Then answer the rest of my questions:

1. So, what's your explanation that none of the prophets ever commanded the Gentile nations to keep the Sabbath?

2. What's your explanation that none of the prophets ever condemned the Gentile nations for not keeping the Sabbath?

3. What's your explanation that Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Noah, Enoch, Adam and all the other saints didn't keep the Sabbath?

4. What's your explanation that Jonah preached to Nineveh and God spared them and yet they kept no Sabbath day?

5. What's your explanation Daniel the prophet and the Israelites lived in Babylon and never condemned them for not keeping the Sabbath?

6. What's your explanation that Daniel the prophet commanded these Babylonians to keep the Sabbath and was utterly mute the entire 490 years in captivity along with the other prophets? Don't you think you should condemn those prophets for being not preaching the Sabbath day as you all do? You see how utterly different than your beliefs. Not a one of them dare preach Sabbath commandments to the Gentiles. And you won't and can't find a single scripture from Genesis to Revelation teaching or condemning Gentiles regarding the Sabbaths.

[John317]

Of course Christ made everything. He made the Sabbath for as a day of rest "a sign between God and the Children of Israel" not the Japanese and Chinese..etc...

When God made the Sabbath, there was no sin and no Japanese. Christ said the Sabbath was made for all of mankind.

Therefore it follows that the Sabbath as originally made had no relationship to sin or to a particular race of people. Neither sin nor different races of people existed at that time.

That is a first principle in understanding the Sabbath. If we can't get that fact straight in our minds-- facts that are staring you in the face-- it will be impossible to understand the Sabbath. Why are you avoiding this fact: the Sabbath was made before sin and at a time before the human race was differentiated? There was only MAN. See Genesis 2: 1-3.

1) When was the Sabbath made? After sin? ___________________ Before sin?__________________

2) God blessed and made holy (set apart) which day of the week? First day? ______________

Fifth Day?___________ Sixth Day?____________ Seventh Day?____________________

3) What does bless mean?

4) When did the seventh day cease to be blessed time?

Can you point to any time when you can say, "Here at this point, the Seventh day ceased to be blessed and became a common, ordinary period of time"?

[John317]

John: Even though you profess to be a "gentile" by birth, you really don't understand what that means, because you think that Gentiles are really people that are supposed to be Jewish. Wow, that gives me a headache.

Let's not presume to tell each other what they know or don't know, nor what they believe before we know them at least somewhat. I won't do this. Can you stop doing this? It is impolite and bad manners on the Forum. Ask me, don't tell me.

I will get around to answering all of your questions, and I hope you can do the same. Thanks.

[John317]

.... you think that Gentiles are really people that are supposed to be Jewish...

Not true, although it may seem so to you at this time. This will be clearer to you as we talk.

Does our faith and trust in Christ lead us to obey:

1) The first commandment? Yes __________ No____________

2) The Second commandment? Yes__________ No_____________

3) The Third commandment? Yes___________ No_____________

4) The Fourth commandment? Yes_____________ No___________

5- 10? Yes__________________ No____________________

[John317]

.....

3. What's your explanation that Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Noah, Enoch, Adam and all the other saints didn't keep the Sabbath?

There are many good, non-Adventist Bible teachers and scholars who believe they did keep the Sabbath.

It is true that the Bible does not say specifically that they they kept the Seventh-day Sabbath.

But you cannot logically argue on the basis of silence that they did not keep it.

Can you prove that they did not keep it?

Does the Bible say they did not keep it?

When precisely was the Sabbath first given to anyone as far as you know?

[John317]

.....2. What's your explanation that none of the prophets ever condemned the Gentile nations for not keeping the Sabbath?

Did the Gentile nations at the time of the prophets know about the Sabbath? Were they under conviction that they ought to keep it?

Does God condemn people for something they do not know about or are not convicted they should do?

Wouldn't it be like our God to first educate people about the truth before condemning them for not doing it or for not living it? Does God condemn people for something they cannot help or for something they are completely ignorant of?

What do you think?

[John317]

.....4. What's your explanation that Jonah preached to Ninevah and God spared them and yet they kept no Sabbath day?

First of all, we don't know everything-- or even very much-- of the content of Jonah's preaching. We have no proof that they did not keep the Sabbath. We simply do not know.

Second, the people of Ninevah were not ready for much "meat." You don't give the meat when the person hasn't even digested the milk.

Third, the whole purpose of Jonah's trip to Ninevah was to preach a specific message of the necessity of repentance. They did not recognize the Creator God, so at that point it would not have been appropriate or sensible to preach about the Sabbath. The Sabbath only has meaning if a person understand who God is, that He is the Creator of the universe and our redeemer and Master. It is very unlikely that the people of Ninevah were aware of this.

[John317]

5. What's your explanation Daniel the prophet and the Israelites lived in Babylon and never condemned them for not keeping the Sabbath?

6. What's your explanation that Daniel the prophet commanded these Babylonians to keep the Sabbath and was utterly mute the entire 490 years in captivity along with the other prophets?

As we saw from the book of Isaiah, the Sabbath only has meaning and validity when people are in covenant relationship with God. The Bible clearly shows that when people want to belong to God, they enter the covenant and receive the same promises and blessings, and the Sabbath is included among these blessings.

Do you know of a single place in the Bible where it says that people entered into covenant relationship with God and yet did not keep the weekly Sabbath? Review Is. 56. Later we can look closely at other, relevant verses on this important subject.

[John317]

.....Anyway, let's have you answer my questions as to why the Prophets, were so negligent as to not 1 time give a command to the Gentiles to keep Sabbaths. I can't wait to see this answer.

Because the Sabbath is connected with the covenants, and therefore, to those outside the covenant, and who are ignorant of God as the Creator and Redeemer, and are not even acknowledging God for who He is, the seventh-day Sabbath naturally has little or no meaning or significance.

However, as mentioned before, when people were brought into that covenant relationship, as in Isaiah 56, and had a better appreciation and knowledge of Him, they were then given the same blessings as Israel was, and this included the blessing involved in keeping the blessed, hold Sabbath of the Lord our God.

By the way, do you teach people about Sunday keeping before they accept Jesus Christ? Which comes first?

Would you expect somebody to keep Sunday before they even know the Lord of the Sabbath?

Well, the same principle applies here as regards the Sabbath. The gentiles generally were pretty ignorant of God in the Old Testament times, wouldn't you agree?

But again, do you have any proof that during the Old Testament times, the people who came into covenant relationship with God did not keep the Sabbath?

[B Humble]

You didn't answer a single question. Please answer the questions.

explain to me why Joseph, who was "Ruler over ALL Egypt, didn't teach, preach or command Sabbaths to the Egyptians. Then answer the rest of my questions:

1. So, what's your explanation that none of the prophets ever commanded the Gentile nations to keep the Sabbath?

2. What's your explanation that none of the prophets ever condemned the Gentile nations for not keeping the Sabbath?

3. What's your explanation that Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Noah, Enoch, Adam and all the other saints didn't keep the Sabbath?

4. What's your explanation that Jonah preached to Nineveh and God spared them and yet they kept no Sabbath day?

5. What's your explanation Daniel the prophet and the Israelites lived in Babylon and never condemned them for not keeping the Sabbath?

6. What's your explanation that Daniel the prophet commanded these Babylonians to keep the Sabbath and was utterly mute the entire 490 years in captivity along with the other prophets? Don't you think you should condemn those prophets for being not preaching the Sabbath day as you all do? You see how utterly different than your beliefs. Not a one of them dare preach Sabbath commandments to the Gentiles. And you won't and can't find a single scripture from Genesis to Revelation teaching or condemning Gentiles regarding the Sabbaths.

[John317]

You didn't answer a single question. Please answer the questions.

explain to me why Joseph, who was "Ruler over ALL Egypt, didn't teach, preach or command Sabbaths to the Egyptians. Then answer the rest of my questions:

1. So, what's your explanation that none of the prophets ever commanded the Gentile nations to keep the Sabbath?

Do you have any proof that Joseph taught them anything about God?

So if they did not know about God, why would he have preached to them about the Sabbath? Why would you expect to find Joseph only talking to them about the Sabbath?

To pick out the Sabbath as something that Joseph would have taught them, and then when you don't see this, to say the silence proves that the Sabbath did not exist, seems to me rather bad logic. It is called a straw man argument. The person creates the straw man, then knocks it down.

Doesn't work that way. I have read many many books on the subject and have never even seen such a tactic used before. For good reason.

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

.....2. What's your explanation that none of the prophets ever condemned the Gentile nations for not keeping the Sabbath?

Did the Gentile nations at the time of the prophets know about the Sabbath? Were they under conviction that they ought to keep it?

Answer: Ah my friend, the prophets according to you all were to blame for them "not knowing about it and for them not being under any "conviction" because they never so much as mentioned it to them.

Does God condemn people for something they do not know about or are not convicted they should do?

Answer: According to your teachings, they had since the beginning of time to learn about it and all besides Moses and the prophets should have told them. You are accusing Moses and the Prophets of being absolutely negligent.

Wouldn't it be like our God to first educate people about the truth before condemning them for not doing it or for not living it? Does God condemn people for something they cannot help or for something they are completely ignorant of?

What do you think?

The reason they were ignorant is because the prophets DIDN'T COMMAND THEM. 490 years in Babylon and numerous prophets isn't enough time to mention it once? Your argument doesn't fly. They had all the time in the world to be both condemned and commanded. All the prophet had to do was OPEN HIS MOUTH and tell them. BUT, THEY DIDN'T.

[Robert]

Check out "Light on the Dark Side of God" by M M Campbell.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Quote:

Yes, but the creation was ruined....Hence the Sabbath no longer points to a finished, perfect work. We've talked about this before, John. The Sabbath always points to a finished work.

Says a man named Jack Sequeira. Yes, I have heard that said many times before.

Do you believe that God wants both gentile and Jews to keep the Sabbath? [/quote']

No, so says the Bible....You must ask yourself, why do you rest? If you don't know then your resting is working...it's legalism.

The Sabbath will be a sign of JBF when the gospel is fully restored to the world. You can't understand the sabbath if you don't understand the gospel...and you don't understand the gospel, hence your sabbath keeping is legalistic from the get go...