What did Christ and the disciples do on the Sabbath....

[Woody]

I'm joining in way late here! But I'm responding to a comment somewhere back in the beginning from Robert. Just a comment regarding keeping the Sabbath because God finished a perfect work and did no more creating after the Sabbath. Then man spoiled it all and the work is no longer perfect, therefore if the Sabbath is to be preached it must be done 'away from the law' because creation is no longer sinless.

It strikes me that we do not keep the Sabbath because 'we' are, or the 'world' ought to be, perfect or sinless, or that the Sabbath is kept legalistically if not, - it is because God wants us to 'REMEMBER', - it's not what 'is, but its what'was', and what 'will be'again. It's God's way, like Passover, for example, of helping us 'not forget' who HE is, what HE is to us. The Sabbath was created for us, and not us for the Sabbath, so that we will never forget who made us, not so that we remember how badly we have messed it up!

Keeping the Sabbath does not indicate that we agree that His creation, being no longer perfect, is therefore unworthy of the Sabbath. The commandments (the law), themselves, were given to Moses long after sin entered the world! But God is still perfect - and he still gives us the Sabbath!

Some good points here contented. I have to question how my good friend Rob has come up with this thought. Rob. Are you saying then that the Sabbath was made ONLY for Adam and Eve BEFORE they sinned? I just don't get that. Perhaps you could better explain. Were Adam and Eve to legalistically keep the Sabbath ... until they sinned? Please help.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: rush4hire

Most, if not all, cultures recognize one day as set apart for religious meeting. This is a perfectly normal thing.

The Sabbath is not about a worship service. Neither Genesis 2 nor Ex 20 refer to this....It's just not in the moral law.

Rob

It's true that Ex. 20 does not refer to worship per se, but there are other places in the Bible that do mention worship in relation to the Sabbath. For instance, Lev. 23: 3 calls the Sabbath a day of holy convocation, or a day of worship, a day of holy assemblies. There were other times of worship, but the weekly Sabbath was the main one. The language of Gen. 2, when it says that God blessed the seventh day, indicates that it was blessed and set apart from the common for the purpose of a holy appointment with mankind.

There's also the fact that Jesus, who made the Sabbath, worshipped on that day. That is enough in those pieces of evidence to convince me that the Sabbath has to do with worship. It certainly has to do with obedience and trust, and all three are interrelated.

[rush4hire]

explain to me why Joseph, who was "Ruler over ALL Egypt, didn't teach, preach or command Sabbaths to the Egyptians.

[Robert]

I could be making $27 / hour building oil rigs if I didn't have to keep the Sabbath.

This really shows your heart....Your desire is to make $27 an hour. What keeps you from actually following your desire? You have to keep the Sabbath.

Since God reads the heart and since your real desire is to make the money, then technically speaking you are not keeping the Sabbath even if you are sitting in the pew....

You see, that type of thinking is the thoughts of a legalist. You don't do things out of love, you do it out of duty or requirement....Such a religion, says EGW, is worthless.

Rob

[Robert]

Some good points here contented. I have to question how my good friend Rob has come up with this thought. Rob. Are you saying then that the Sabbath was made ONLY for Adam and Eve BEFORE they sinned? I just don't get that. Perhaps you could better explain.

The Sabbath is always God's 7th day, but the reason why one keeps this Sabbath is dynamic...meaning, it is evolving...changing.

At creation the Sabbath symbolized God's sinless, perfect creation. God rested, not because He was tired, but because His creation work was absolutely perfect.

When Adam & Eve rested, as God rested, they were outwardly stating that they agreed with God. But soon thereafter God's creation was ruined because Adam & Eve fell into sin and thereby handed this perfect world over to Satan.

Hence, he is the Lord of this world and through his principle of "self" it is a dying, polluted world ravaged with sin. So the Sabbath of creation no longer points to God's perfect, sinless creation.

The Sabbath, however, is currently linked with God's redemption. Was God's work of salvation "in Christ" perfect and complete? Can you improve on it? No!

What day did God the Father rest from His perfect redemption in Christ? Right, the 7th day. So when you rest, as God rested, you are agreeing outwardly that God's work of salvation is complete "in Christ" and that your works can't add to that perfect work.

But one day all this will come to and end. We will one day be resurrected or translated. Then we will be perfect as God is perfect. No longer will we be imperfect.

Well, that day brings our re-creation. As Adam fell and died, now we are raised and given new, sinless lives. We have been fully restored and then some. Thus in heaven the weekly Sabbath will symbolize God's perfect recreation.

Remember that the New Jerusalem will be placed on the new earth. At that time we've come full circle. Now all is perfect once again. Then we will understand perfectly that the love of self, although it sounded wonderful, brought misery and death and that God's agape brings true peace and prosperity. Hence, "iniquity" will not arise a 2nd time! And the Sabbath will point back when all was restored.

Rob

[jasd]

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>>Who did Jesus say the Sabbath was made for? Jews?_______________ Or: Mankind (generic)?<<

A coupla things: Though Jesus Christ did say that the Sabbath was made for man – there is absolutely no Biblical evidence that it was ‘given’ to man – until it was recorded, as actually being given to the COI.

The Sabbath-as-universal-fact either before or circa the deluge – is deduced. That deduction is constructed from the record that before the languages of man were confused – there did exist a ‘sabbath’. The deduction lies with the inflected ‘sabbath’ – as defining a particular day – in the many languages extant.

One might remind that deducements do not necessarily equate truths. However, whether or not ‘deducements’ re the Sabbath are rightly arrived at – they are moot – in the face of the texts in

Hos 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

Lam 2:6 ...the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion,

Because of profanation, Gd removed His Sabbaths – and there is no subsequent or concomitant text reestablishing the Sabbath as it was given upon the Exodus.

Man’s redemption occurred at the cross; yet, Writ states that the ‘lamb was slain from the foundation of the world’. There seems to exist a metaphorical similitude...

>>When Jesus was asked about the Sabbath, what did he say?--- "Is it _______________ to do good on the Sabbath?" See Matt. 12:12.<<

Why was it New Testamentally lawful to ‘do’ – upon the Sabbath; whereas, it was not so in the OT? (the COI were commanded to remain in their tents upon the Sabbath) Either there is an ontological evolution of the Sabbath or Jesus Christ was simply cognizant of the removal of Gd’s calendar vis-à-vis the observance of the Sabbath in the Jewish economy – and Jesus Christ was observing the Jewish Sabbath as ‘custom’ per Writ and the injunction of St Paul.

>>Thus when it came to determining what was right to do on the Sabbath, to what did Christ appeal? Conscience?_________________ Tradition?_______________ God's law?______________<<

I seem to recall that Jesus Christ’s rhetorical question failed to distinguish between Gd’s law and the law of the Jewish economy.

>>There is no question that God made the weekly Sabbath for all mankind, just as Jesus Christ Himself said.<<

That is so; however, there is no representation of either its implementation or ‘gifting’ prior to the Covenanting upon the Exodus.

>>The Sabbath was made before there was even a Jew and before there were different races of people. There was just one race at that time. So the Sabbath was created before sin entered the world. Its original intention had nothing to do with race or nationality.<< [ed.jasd]

It seems that the Sabbath of Gd’s calendar will not be available to all of mankind – until the millennial reign – it, having not [according to Writ] been given to mankind – previously (unless otherwise deduced)..

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Quote:John317

We simply do not know.

Indeed. It is a thing of believing – as is much of Writ.

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Quote:Robert

through Moses God sets the Jews free.

I think this may be the kind of lack of distinction—to which, B Humble might refer. Actually, at the time of the Exodus – though there were Judahites – there were no ‘Jews’.

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Quote:rush4hie

All the world over recognizes a 7 day week.

However, that was not always so. Early Xtians had some influence as to why that is so today.

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Quote:rush4hire

... the Sun God anymore. They realize that's where Sunday originated.

Tsk, tsk. And Saturn was a god who cannibalized his own children. That is where ‘Saturday’ originated.

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Quote:rush4hire

They weren't worshiping the Babylonian gods:

I’ve heard it often said that money is the god of the venal. One wonders just what the Jews of the Captivity worthshipped – as so relatively few of them elected to return to their land to rebuild the House of Gd – that they might worship therein – the God of their fathers. They, instead, preferred to remain in the world center of commerce. The equivalent ‘world center of commerce’ is today

The Charter City of London – that great City.

[John317]

QR frame:

>>Who did Jesus say the Sabbath was made for? Jews?_______________ Or: Mankind (generic)?<<

A coupla things: Though Jesus Christ did say that the Sabbath was made for man – there is absolutely no Biblical evidence that it was ‘given’ to man – until it was recorded, as actually being given to the COI.

The Sabbath-as-universal-fact either before or circa the deluge – is deduced. That deduction is constructed from the record that before the languages of man were confused – there did exist a ‘sabbath’. The deduction lies with the inflected ‘sabbath’ – as defining a particular day – in the many languages extant.

I believe there is good Bible evidence that the Sabbath was given to Adam and Eve and that the people of God did keep it. The Bible does not say "God told Adam and Eve about the Sabbath," but it does not need to. There's the language of Gen. 2: 1-3, which does not make sense if God did not tell mankind about the Sabbath. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, and Adam was that man. His very man means man. It was meant as a blessing for mankind; so why wouldn't he tell people about it? Why would God wait for thousands of years before He gave people that blessing?

There's evidence of the weekly cycle in Genesis, which itself lends support to the idea that people at that time knew about the Sabbath. The book of Exodus seems to indicate that there was a knowledge of the Sabbath among the Israelites in Egypt and before the first mention of the Sabbath in Ex. 16.

Ellen White says that the Sabbath was given to Adam and Eve, and I believe her. There is Bible evidence to support her. Many non-Adventists scholars agree.

[John317]

.... One might remind that deducements do not necessarily equate truths. However, whether or not ‘deducements’ re the Sabbath are rightly arrived at – they are moot – in the face of the texts in

Hos 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

Lam 2:6 ...the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion,

Because of profanation, Gd removed His Sabbaths – and there is no subsequent or concomitant text reestablishing the Sabbath as it was given upon the Exodus.

There is no evidence in the New Testament or in the words and actions of Christ that God removed His Sabbaths. Jesus kept the Sabbath and in Matt. 24: 20, he told his disciples to pray regarding the Sabbath, showing that Christ fully expected the Sabbath to be in existence in the future. Christ's teaching does not reveal any indication that the Sabbath would be done away with.

The verses quoted do not mean that people would no longer remember or would completely forget the Sabbath. The context has to do with the suffering due to Israel's rebellion and disobedience that would cause the people great sorrow. Lamentations is about Jerusalem's desolation at the hands of invading armies on account of their failure to listen to God's prophets. Hosea 2 is also about the same subject.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

I just don't get that. Perhaps you could better explain.

The Sabbath is always God's 7th day, but the reason why one keeps this Sabbath is dynamic...meaning, it is evolving...changing.

Did you see my post? Basically think of the Sabbath as a circle starting at 0 degrees, then going 180 degrees, then 360 degrees (or back to 0 degrees).

0 degrees: The Sabbath symbolized a perfect creation. Adam and Eve and everything God had made stood perfect and complete. That's the reason given for God's resting.

Then you have the fall. What does God do? He stops resting! Why? There's work to do. And that work is to save mankind from the curse of the law and restore the Sabbath significance.

180 degrees: God restores the Sabbath as a symbol of His perfect work of redemption. So God again rested.

360 degrees: We are back where we started, but now we are a new creation. We have received our glorified bodies without indwelling sin. Here the Sabbath symbolize a perfect and complete re-creation.

So in a nutshell we have:

1] The original Sabbath pointed to a perfect creation.

2] But now the Sabbath points to a perfect redemption.

3] In the future the Sabbath points to a perfect re-creation.

Rob

[Robert]

Huh...I fixed my stupid mistake....I changed 270 to 360....

Rob

[jasd]

>>I believe there is good Bible evidence that the Sabbath was given to Adam and Eve and that the people of God did keep it.<<

As I’ve previously noted: deducements.

>>There is no evidence in the New Testament or in the words and actions of Christ that God removed His Sabbaths.<<

You may not be correct upon this point; nevertheless, it is stated in the OT. One only wishes that there existed that inarguable text that reestablishes The Sabbath.

>>Jesus kept the Sabbath and in Matt. 24: 20, he told his disciples to pray regarding the Sabbath,<<

As was His custom. Mind you, not by law, but by custom.

>>...that Christ fully expected the Sabbath to be in existence in the future.<<

It argues that Jesus Christ does not condemn a man who is “fully persuaded in his own mind” (Rom 14:5) re the Sabbath.

>>Christ's teaching does not reveal any indication that the Sabbath would be done away with.<<

Amazing. Neither does He teach that man observed the Sabbath immediately after the deluge – but you accept that; whereas, both Hosea and Jeremiah specifically state that the Sabbaths have been caused to cease and forgotten – and you reject the OT.

>>The verses quoted do not mean that people would no longer remember or would completely forget the Sabbath.<<

But it does. Matter of fact, it does so in very direct and easily understood language.

One cannot always forge context to fit dogma. Should that be so, then David’s prophecies concerning the Theophany of Jesus Christ and His death upon the cross are rendered moot.

>>The context has to do with the suffering due to Israel's rebellion and disobedience that would cause the people great sorrow.<<

Were that entirely so, then please provide the explanation for how it is that a floating Sabbath (as Sabbaths presently are configured on our calendars) that falls upon Abib 10 - can be harmonized with the required buying and selling of lambs and goats, as well as their transport - on that day.

It is inarguable that the both the Northern and Southern Kingdoms lost Gd’s calendar – exactly as He, through His prophets Hosea and Jeremiah, prophesied.

>>Lamentations is about Jerusalem's desolation at the hands of invading armies on account of their failure to listen to God's prophets. Hosea 2 is also about the same subject.<<

Whatever else their narratives – they contain the explicit words of Gd as to the disposition of the Sabbaths; that is, Gd caused them to cease and to be forgotten with nar’ a word on their subsequent restitution.

[John317]

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>>Jesus kept the Sabbath and in Matt. 24: 20, he told his disciples to pray regarding the Sabbath,<<

As was His custom. Mind you, not by law, but by custom.

The word used means that it was Jesus' way of life; it was his habit of doing this; it was what he always did. If Jesus always could be found keeping the Sabbath, it must be important.

Remember that Jesus said that He always obeyed His Father's commandments and He calls us to obey them also.

[John317]

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JOHN3:17-- >>The verses quoted do not mean that people would no longer remember or would completely forget the Sabbath.<<

But it does. Matter of fact, it does so in very direct and easily understood language.

When did the Jews forget the 7th day Sabbath? Both the gospels and the book of Acts show that the people had not forgotten the Sabbath. It says they were worshipping on the Sabbath day. Where is the evidence that they forgot it?

[John317]

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JOHN3:17-- >>The context has to do with the suffering due to Israel's rebellion and disobedience that would cause the people great sorrow.<<

Were that entirely so, then please provide the explanation for how it is that a floating Sabbath (as Sabbaths presently are configured on our calendars) that falls upon Abib 10 - can be harmonized with the required buying and selling of lambs and goats, as well as their transport - on that day.

Please give the Bible verses that support this.

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It is inarguable that the both the Northern and Southern Kingdoms lost Gd’s calendar – exactly as He, through His prophets Hosea and Jeremiah, prophesied.

Please show references or documentation for this. Do you have verses of the Bible that show this?

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JOHN3:17-- >>Lamentations is about Jerusalem's desolation at the hands of invading armies on account of their failure to listen to God's prophets. Hosea 2 is also about the same subject.<<

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Whatever else their narratives – they contain the explicit words of Gd as to the disposition of the Sabbaths; that is, Gd caused them to cease and to be forgotten with nar’ a word on their subsequent restitution.

I believe you are misunderstanding what is being said in those verses. If you read the rest of the Lam. 2:6,7, you see that God also says he will abandon His sanctuary, but obviously it does not mean God will do so FOREVER. The verse clearly is talking about the exile and the sorrow that would come upon all Israel, and this is how all Bible scholars understand it. There is no evidence whatever that the weekly Sabbath was totally forgotten and lost. The NT mentions the Sabbath hundreds of times with the obvious meaning that we can know when the Sabbath occurs from week to week.

[jasd]

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Quote:jasd

As was His custom. Mind you, not by law, but by custom.

>>The word used means that it was Jesus' way of life; it was his habit of doing this; it was what he always did. If Jesus always could be found keeping the Sabbath, it must be important.

Lu 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

etho: Custom; Wont; Manner

Custom, wont, or manner – are hardly descriptive of the immutable – are they?

Which makes St Luke’s use of it as a adverbial phrase interesting. One already assumes that Jesus Christ, being a Jew, observed the Sabbaths; so, why does St Luke, being the precise author, elect to insert the adverbial phrase – where it is superfluous.

So, why, if not adherence to law, did Jesus Christ make it His ‘custom’, wont, or manner – to go to Synagogue on the Sabbath day?

For the same reason,

Lu 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.

as did St Paul; that is

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Where better might a Teacher find a captive audience – than in Synagogue on the Sabbath day? Hence, ‘custom’, wont, or manner.

>>Remember that Jesus said that He always obeyed His Father's commandments and He calls us to obey them also.<<

True; however, let us also remember that He is

Matt 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

having all authority re the Sabbath day.

[jasd]

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Quote:

Quote:John317

The verses quoted do not mean that people would no longer remember or would completely forget the Sabbath.

Quote:jasd

But it does. Matter of fact, it does so in very direct and easily understood language.

>>When did the Jews forget the 7th day Sabbath?<<

When Gd caused that they should.

>>Both the gospels and the book of Acts show that the people had not forgotten the Sabbath.<<

They did, indeed, observe a Sabbath day; however, again, what of Abib 10? I submit that the Jews kept a cyclic 7-day period that had no relation to that given by Gd upon the Exodus. The calendar used was so objectionable that it fell upon Hillel II to correct it or improve upon it. The result, though satisfactory to Jews and assorted Sabbatarians, is Babylonish in terminology, calculation, and function.

>>It says they were worshipping on the Sabbath day. Where is the evidence that they forgot it?<<

You don’t have an issue with me. Your issue is with the very spoken/written words of Gd as evidenced by His Prophets Hosea and Jeremiah. The calendrical errors existing in the existing Hebrew calendar are simply too egregious to ignore, John317.

What I’ve submitted re Hosea and Jeremiah vis-à-vis the errors found in the present Hebraic, calendrical calculations - substantiate a 'lost' or 'forgotten' Sabbath day purport.

[jasd]

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Quote:John317

Please give the Bible verses that support this.

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Quote:John317

Please show references or documentation for this. Do you have verses of the Bible that show this?

What I’ve submitted is so easily verified – that, I propose you are playing at this. Should you truly be interested in the truth and veracity of Writ – it takes but moments for you, or anyone else, to verify what I’ve forwarded.

For it to fall upon me to verify or to lay out these texts in a foundational manner – beggars the issue. It is likewise, as it was with St Claudia.

Nevertheless, “Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth [day] of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of [their] fathers, a lamb for an house:” (Ex 12:3)

>>I believe you are misunderstanding what is being said in those verses. If you read the rest of the Lam. 2:6,7, you see that God also says he will abandon His sanctuary, but obviously it does not mean God will do so FOREVER.<<

I’ve stated that The Sabbath will be observed during the Millennial Reign. Per my “misunderstanding” – the assertion is easily proved – harmonize Abib 10 with texts re The Sabbath day; otherwise, it is not I who misunderstands.

>>The verse clearly is talking about the exile and the sorrow that would come upon all Israel, and this is how all Bible scholars understand it. There is no evidence whatever that the weekly Sabbath was totally forgotten and lost.<<

John317, you are being circular. Gd spoke so clearly re the matter that should one find it impossible to either understand or accept those very words – I submit that there exists predispositional or denominational bias.

>>The NT mentions the Sabbath hundreds of times with the obvious meaning that we can know when the Sabbath occurs from week to week.<<

That is simply deduced. It was a fact of the Jewish economy. For one to take the tack that the Sabbath question is established by the fact that the ‘Jews did this or did not do this’ relies too heavily upon only the one aspect of the Jewish economy. That, as has been proven,

is compounded error.

You keep avoiding the obvious; that is, if I am wrong and Gd, through His Prophets Hosea and Jeremiah, was simply overstating His intentions – then,

prove that a floating Sabbath day will never fall, according to Gd’s calendar, upon Abib 10 with its required and secular activities.

One cannot resort to the Hillel II calendar with its proven and unBiblical calculations.

(I am really hesitant to continue with a Sunday/Saturday dialogue upon this thread, as it will shortly disappear, and to all intent and purpose, be lost in the archives. The expositional value of this dialogue deserves to be front and center)

[rush4hire]

As was His custom. Mind you, not by law, but by custom.

[color:#BF0000]Luke 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.

4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

It was the custom of Jesus to stand up and read in the synagogue every Sabbath. He was a preacher. His custom was to read. Going to the synagogue was not Christ's peculiar custom, but just something everyone did and would continue doing:

[color:#BF0000]Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, [Ye] men [and] brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

...

13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted [thither].

17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Sabbath keeping was not an unusual thing for the Apostles. It was just normal. Nothing to note. They must never have imagined people would ever have a problem with it. They probably also never imagined people would start making idols of Jesus and Mary.

[color:#BF0000]Luke 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Don't try to say that Paul would have been making tents on the Sabbath and things like that. If that where the case, they would said something, and nothing was ever said. There's not a shred of evidence. The evidence from history, however, shows that some Christians where cowards and where willing to bow to idols to save their lives and to observe the day set apart by the Pagan sun worshipers to separate themselves from the Jews and escape persecution.

The fact that nothing was said is pretty hard evidence considering all the debate about circumcision. Circumcision was not a part of the Ten Commandments. It was a sign of an old covenant. Now we have baptism. Circumcision happened once in a man's lifetime, but the Sabbath happened to everyone every single week. Sabbath happened about 4400 times in an 80 year old person's lifetime. For men and women times 2, that's 8800. The Sabbath happened about 8800 times more often than circumcision, and circumcision was such a hot item for debate, but the change of the Sabbath was never mentioned? It just doesn't add up.

[rush4hire]

[color:#BF0000]Exo. 12:2 This month [shall be] unto you the beginning of months: it [shall be] the first month of the year to you.

12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth [day] of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of [their] fathers, a lamb for an house:

This is the Passover lamb. God is not telling them to actually purchase a lamb on that exact day. It says they needed to each have a lamb by that time in preparation for the Passover.

Now let's look at Hosea 2:11

[color:#BF0000]Hosea 2:9 Therefore will I return, and take away my corn in the time thereof, and my wine in the season thereof, and will recover my wool and my flax [given] to cover her nakedness.

2:10 And now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and none shall deliver her out of mine hand.

2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

2:12 And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, These [are] my rewards that my lovers have given me: and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them.

So God is taking away:

1. Corn

2. wine

3. wool

4. flax

5. uncovers her nakedness

6. feast days

7. new moons

8. Sabbaths

9. solemn feasts

10. vines

11. fig trees

And maybe more stuff. These are all good things. This was done in punishment. Are you saying we should not have any of these things? Should we not eat corn or grape juice or use wool or eat figs? Should we go naked? Your reasoning doesn't make sense. You might stick with the well established arguments against the Sabbath. The best one I have found is this:

[color:#BF0000]1 Tim. 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Just say your job requires you to be available 7 days a week. That's a good excuse. And you have to provide for your family, right? Or you're worse than an infidel.

But these guys could have used the same argument:

[color:#BF0000]Acts 19:24 For a certain [man] named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen;

19:25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth.

19:26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:

19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

I have met many store owners who will never close their store on the Sabbath. It doesn't seem right that God should ask such a thing of them. They have to provide for their family.

Ok, what about Lamentations 2:6

[color:#BF0000]Lament. 2:5 The Lord was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.

2:6 And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as [if it were of] a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.

2:7 The Lord hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast.

I guess they got all those things back too. The king, the priest, the palace, the tabernacle, the places of assembly, the solemn feasts, the sabbaths, the altar, the sanctuary, the walls, etc

Again, this is punishment, not reward. What you are pushing is the idea that God is now rewarding us with the freedom to continue our common, manual labor and pursuits on the Sabbath. This verse really doesn't support your case.

[Reddogs]

Here is a good link on this issue...

http://www.godssabbathtruth.com/sabbath-calendar.html

Since creation the Sabbath has been part of the weekly cycle, that has never changed. Man can shift their calender anyway they want but the Sabbath is locked into the week, God will not let it be changed.

[jasd]

Quote:

Exo. 12:2 This month [shall be] unto you the beginning of months: it [shall be] the first month of the year to you.

12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth [day] of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of [their] fathers, a lamb for an house: [ed.jasd]

>>This is the Passover lamb.<<

Exactly. Or goat.

>>God is not telling them to actually purchase a lamb on that exact day. It says they needed to each have a lamb by that time in preparation for the Passover.<<

Let us say that the COI did as those who attend Campmeetings – that is, they purchased their lamb during the week. The law demanded that they take to their hearth, as it were – to install that lamb as a part of the household for four days prior to Passover. That ‘taking’ was to be done upon the 10th of Abib. Should they have, indeed, purchased their lamb or goat during the week – it still remains that the text uses “laqach/take”, which conveys, at the least, the idea of transport. This command originated during

the time when none should leave their tents upon the Sabbath. That would have included a Sabbath falling upon the 10th of Abib – should the COI have, indeed, had a calendar with a floating Sabbath.

Quote:

Quote:rush4hire

Now let's look at Hosea 2:11

Hosea 2:9 Therefore will I return, and take away my corn in the time thereof, and my wine in the season thereof, and will recover my wool and my flax [given] to cover her nakedness.

2:10 And now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and none shall deliver her out of mine hand.

2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

2:12 And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, These [are] my rewards that my lovers have given me: and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them.

So God is taking away:

1. Corn

2. wine

3. wool

4. flax

5. uncovers her nakedness

6. feast days

7. new moons

8. Sabbaths

9. solemn feasts

10. vines

11. fig trees

And maybe more stuff. These are all good things. This was done in punishment. Are you saying we should not have any of these things? Should we not eat corn or grape juice or use wool or eat figs? Should we go naked?

Notice that Hosea was prophet to the Northern Kingdom. It is indisputable that the Northern Kingdom was taken away from everything that existed in their land – never having returned. Most Protestors claim that those COI cannot even be identified today – and, moreover, surely must have had their Sabbaths removed, as none are able to say they kept the Seventh-day Sabbath – wherever they may have gone.

They lost both their calendar and their Sabbaths. No one can make the argument that they did not lose both their calendar and their Sabbaths.

The Apocryphal Esdras tells us that when Assyria was in decline, rather than taking the opportunity to return to the land of Israel, representatives from the tribes of the Northern Kingdom met and voted to cross the Caucuses northward, instead.

>>Your reasoning doesn't make sense. You might stick with the well established arguments against the Sabbath.<<

I disagree. Please, should you wish, controvert the above.

>>The best one I have found is this:

1 Tim. 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Just say your job requires you to be available 7 days a week. That's a good excuse. And you have to provide for your family, right? Or you're worse than an infidel.<<

Not so. Gd tells us that if we have food and raiment we are to be satisfied. There is nowhere in America where one cannot provide either food or raiment for his or her family – without having to work on one’s Sabbath.

Quote:

Quote:rush4hire

Ok, what about Lamentations 2:6

Lament. 2:5 The Lord was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.

2:6 And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as [if it were of] a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.

2:7 The Lord hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast.

>>I guess they got all those things back too.<<

First, you’ll notice that this passage addresses the Southern Kingdom of Judah. That said, not so,

there was, thereafter, no throne of David in Judah nor a son of David to sit thereupon. There is no evidence that the Second Temple ever had the Ark of the Covenant emplaced in its Holy of Holies – it, semmingly, having been lost; that is, secreted, without since - ever being found. The calendar of the Second Temple Period was one of Babylonish origin in terminology, calculation, and function.

>>The king, the priest, the palace, the tabernacle, the places of assembly, the solemn feasts, the sabbaths, the altar, the sanctuary, the walls, etc<<

Please reread Lamentations, very carefully. I’ve already addressed the issue of the King. What does the text say of the priests? Does the passage say that anything other than the “solemn feasts and sabbaths” were to be forgotten?

>>Again, this is punishment, not reward.<<

I am unable to apprehend your point.

>>What you are pushing is the idea that God is now rewarding us with the freedom to continue our common, manual labor and pursuits on the Sabbath.<<

How do you arrive at that conclusion? I’ve stated, unequivocally, that Gd removed His Sabbaths because of the profanation of it by Israel. He safeguarded its sanctity. It is not until the millennial reign that the true weekly Sabbath will be reinstituted.

>>This verse really doesn't support your case.<<

Please reread, very carefully, and get back to me.

Approximately 600 years after Sinai, Gd sent a drought upon the land of Israel; that is, He caused the rains to cease.

1 Kings 18:1 And it came to pass [after] many days, that the word of the LORD came to Elijah in the third year, saying, Go, shew thyself unto Ahab; and I will send rain upon the earth.

Text hardly leaves room for question, does it? We have a text that directly apprises us of a return to the status quo by the word of Gd. Such a text does not exist re the Seventh-day Sabbath that Gd caused to cease and to be forgotten.