What did Christ and the disciples do on the Sabbath....

[John317]

1. So, what's your explanation that none of the prophets ever commanded the Gentile nations to keep the Sabbath?

The answer is that the Sabbath is meaningless apart from being in covenant relationship with God. God does not command love and obedience from people who know nothing about Him. First a person learns about who God is; they enter into covenant relationship with God; and then they begin to learn things such as the Sabbath.

Jonah was sent to the people of Ninevah to command them to repent and stop their gross sins, but we do not have a transcript of his preaching, and therefore do not know what all He preached to them beyond these elementary things. We simply do not know if He taught them the Sabbath, but then we don't know anything else that He might have said. So it should not come as a surprise that there is no record of Jonah's teaching the Sabbath. Those people did not even know who God was, let alone know the Creation story of the OT.

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2. What's your explanation that none of the prophets ever condemned the Gentile nations for not keeping the Sabbath?

Did the Gentile nations at the time of the prophets know about the Sabbath? Were they under conviction that they ought to keep it?

Does God condemn people for something they do not know about or are not convicted they should do?

Wouldn't it be like our God to first educate people about the truth before condemning them for not doing it or for not living it? Does God condemn people for something they cannot help or for something they are completely ignorant of?

What do you think?

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3. What's your explanation that Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Noah, Enoch, Adam and all the other saints didn't keep the Sabbath?

There are many good, non-Adventist Bible teachers and scholars who believe they did keep the Sabbath.

It is true that the Bible does not say specifically that they kept the Seventh-day Sabbath.

But you cannot logically argue on the basis of silence that they did not keep it.

Can you prove that they did not keep it?

Does the Bible say they did not keep it?

When precisely was the Sabbath first given to anyone as far as you know?

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4. What's your explanation that Jonah preached to Nineveh and God spared them and yet they kept no Sabbath day?

First of all, we don't know everything-- or even very much-- of the content of Jonah's preaching. We have no proof that they did not keep the Sabbath. We simply do not know.

Second, the people of Ninevah were not ready for much "meat." You don't give the meat when the person hasn't even digested the milk.

Third, the whole purpose of Jonah's trip to Ninevah was to preach a specific message of the necessity of repentance. They did not recognize the Creator God, so at that point it would not have been appropriate or sensible to preach about the Sabbath. The Sabbath only has meaning if a person understand who God is, that He is the Creator of the universe and our redeemer and Master. It is very unlikely that the people of Ninevah were aware of this.

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5. What's your explanation Daniel the prophet and the Israelites lived in Babylon and never condemned them for not keeping the Sabbath?

As we saw from the book of Isaiah, the Sabbath only has meaning and validity when people are in covenant relationship with God. The Bible clearly shows that when people want to belong to God, they enter the covenant and receive the same promises and blessings, and the Sabbath is included among these blessings.

Do you know of a single place in the Bible where it says that people entered into covenant relationship with God and yet did not keep the weekly Sabbath?

Review Is. 56.

Later we can look closely at other, relevant verses on this important subject.

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6. What's your explanation that Daniel the prophet commanded these Babylonians to keep the Sabbath and was utterly mute the entire 490 years in captivity along with the other prophets? Don't you think you should condemn those prophets for being not preaching the Sabbath day as you all do? You see how utterly different than your beliefs. Not a one of them dare preach Sabbath commandments to the Gentiles. And you won't and can't find a single scripture from Genesis to Revelation teaching or condemning Gentiles regarding the Sabbaths.

Here is my answer: truth and the revelation of truth is progressive. God certainly expects more from you and me than he did from those Babylonians who knew practically nothing about Him.

We really do not have much information about the contact between the prophets and the people of Babylon. We certainly don't have details about their teaching the ordinary people of that country. Therefore, it is impossible to say for certain that they did not say anything about the Sabbath.

That said, I would ask that you keep studying and praying and seeking to know the truth as it is in Jesus. If you do, God has promised to make the Bible like a lamp to your feet, a lamp that will shine brighter and brighter, and you will see clearly more and more of the path He makes plain before you.

[Robert]

You must ask yourself, why do you rest? If you don't know then your resting is working...it's legalism.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing [i.e., His work was final...it was complete...it was perfect]; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, [why?] because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Ask yourself a question: Did God start creating again after resting the 7th day? No! Why not? His work was eternally finished. God's work was perfect...it was complete.

Hence the Sabbath of creation points to a perfect, sinless creation. So when you keep the Sabbath according to the 10 CC, you are keeping a lie because God's rest no longer points to a perfect, sinless world. The Sabbath of creation has been rendered meaningless because of the fall. So your Sabbath keeping is not only meaningless, it' tainted with legalism.

Now look at the 4ht commandment:

“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. [how?] 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work,

why?

For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."

When you rest as God rested you are agreeing that His creation is perfect...that it is sinless. That's not true any longer!

So if you are going to present the Sabbath you better get away from the law. I see it connected to the gospel, especially in the last days....But that's another subject.

Rob

[Joe_in_RP]

"Sabbath and was utterly mute the entire 490 years in captivity along with the other prophets? "

If it was during captivity, what prophets did they have? Whose religion were they following? Wasn't it the Babylonian religion they followed while in captivity?

[John317]

[Robert]

Wasn't it the Babylonian religion they followed while in captivity?

Yes, and as I stated, all non-Christian religions are based on appeasing an angry god or law works for a reward through a system of so called good works (which, are really egocentric works).

The giving of the law was never to setup a method of salvation, but rather to make sin exceedingly sinful. It was to expose sin and make the viewer humble.

So my question to all the legalists is, "Has the law humbled you or are you still defending your righteousness?"

Rob

[Robert]

Do you yourself keep the seventh day Sabbath? If not, why not, and if so, why do you?

Define "keep"?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you yourself keep the seventh day Sabbath? If not, why not, and if so, why do you?

Define "keep"?

Do you obey God with respect to His Sabbath? Do you "rest" on the Sabbath? What does Jack Sequeira mean when he talks (as he does) about keeping the Sabbath?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Joe Knapp

Wasn't it the Babylonian religion they followed while in captivity?

Yes, and as I stated, all non-Christian religions are based on appeasing an angry god or law works for a reward through a system of so called good works (which, are really egocentric works).

The giving of the law was never to setup a method of salvation, but rather to make sin exceedingly sinful. It was to expose sin and make the viewer humble.

So my question to all the legalists is, "Has the law humbled you or are you still defending your righteousness?"

Rob

We may be sure that God had his faithful people during the Babylonian captivity, including, among others, the prophet Daniel. But it is quite true that most of Israel took the easy road, which is to compromise and follow the crowd.

Yes, you are right, Rob, the law was never intended to save anyone, nor can it, ever.

We cannot be saved, for instance, by obeying the law concerning stealing or lying or anything else.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Define "keep"?[/quote']

Do you "rest" on the Sabbath?

"for anyone who enters God’s rest [i.e., the gospel] also rests from his own work, just as God did from his" [Heb 4:10]

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you "rest" on the Sabbath? [/quote']

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"for anyone who enters God’s rest [i.e., the gospel] also rests from his own work, just as God did from his" [Heb 4:10]

There you go!! Yes. That's it, exactly. Good job, Jack. Oops, I mean Rob.

I mean it, though-- that really is it; I agree. The seventh-day Sabbath is a symbol of the rest of salvation we have in Jesus for all 7 days of the week.

Now how about showing that to our newfound friend, B. Humble?

[Robert]

"for anyone who enters God’s rest [i.e., the gospel] also rests from his own work, just as God did from his" [Heb 4:10]

Here's the thing....God the Father saved us "in Christ". For thirty something years Christ obeyed the law of love. Since our humanity was "in Him" we have been accounted righteous. But the Bible says not only does the law demand righteousness, but it also demands death. So "in Christ" I died because the law demanded my death too.

In Romans chapter 5, Paul tells us that "we were reconciled to him [God] through the death of his Son." When did I...when did you die to the law in the body of Christ? Not when you believed, but some 2000 years ago.

What day did Christ die? Late Friday evening just before sunset. Where was your life...your humanity? Right, "in Him"!

When you died in the body of Christ, Paul tells us that you were reconciled unto God.

What day did God the Father rest? The 7th-day! What did He rest from?

Remember the Sabbath always points to a complete and perfect work. The Sabbath of creation was ruined by the fall so it no longer points to perfection.

So what day did God the Father rest from His perfect and complete work "in Christ"? The Sabbath. Hence God rested the Sabbath as a sign that salvation was accomplished full and complete "in Christ Jesus". Hence, the Sabbath says you can't add to God's work by your own works because "in Christ" you and I stand perfect in every detail. Now this truth doesn't deny growth in grace...

So technically the Sabbath now points to God's perfect work of redemption in the doing and dying of Jesus Christ - the Son of God and the Son of man.

So, my understanding is this: I rest as God rested some 2000 years ago in two ways:

1] I rest in the finish work of God. That's justification by faith.

2] But the Sabbath is a sign of justification by faith. So when I don't work (and I'm not sure what that entails) I am outwardly saying that I agree with God's rest is perfect and it is complete.

Now here's my confusion:

Since the Sabbath is a sign...how can I be a witness by not working on the Sabbath. I mean he knows? So I struggle to understand.

Personally, I try to make the Sabbath different. I've asked my employer to have that day off. Now, I do get called in once in while for emergencies....but other than that....

So there's confusion because while I agree with the principle of the Sabbath as a sign, I just wonder how can my not working be a witness since most folks have no idea....Do you understand?

Here's how Jack sums it up:

When the true gospel of righteousness by faith will be fully recovered and preached into all the world, every person will have to make the choice, either for or against Christ [Deuteronomy 30:19,20; Joshua 24:13-15; Romans 9:30-33; Philippians 3:3-9]. At that time, the Sabbath will become the seal of God, representing righteousness by faith. In contrast, Sunday will represent the Mark of the Beast, signifying man’s rejection of God’s saving grace in Christ [Revelation 14:10-11]. Therefore, when the Sunday (blue) law will be legally established, it will indicate the world’s deliberate and ultimate rejection of God’s loving offer of salvation through His Son.

This is the “abomination of desolation” Christ spoke about [Matthew 24:14-22]. Those who will then insist on Sunday rest, in willful opposition to God’s Sabbath rest, will receive the plagues, the wrath of God poured out without mixture [Revelation 14:9-11]. In contrast, those who will stubbornly keep the Seventh-day Sabbath will be manifesting a faith in God that is unshakeable. They will go through the great time of trouble and wash their robes white in the blood of the Lamb.

Because of the mixed, confused ideas of salvation, the true controversy between God’s Sabbath and man’s Sunday is today still foggy and not clearly understood. But when the two opposing methods of salvation come into clear focus, then the true importance of the Sabbath will be seen clearly. May God give us, at that time, the grace and courage to stand for truth.

[Robert]

Sabbath/Sunday issue. This is good, read it!

[John317]

With a few exceptions, I am fine with your whole post.

What do you make of the sentence in red here? What does Jack S. mean by "keep"?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

"for anyone who enters God’s rest [i.e., the gospel] also rests from his own work, just as God did from his" [Heb 4:10]

1] I rest in the finish work of God. That's justification by faith.

2] But the Sabbath is a sign of justification by faith. So when I don't work (and I'm not sure what that entails) I am outwardly saying that I agree with God's rest is perfect and it is complete.....

Now here's my confusion:

Since the Sabbath is a sign...how can I be a witness by not working on the Sabbath. I mean he knows? So I struggle to understand.

Personally, I try to make the Sabbath different. I've asked my employer to have that day off. Now, I do get called in once in while for emergencies....but other than that....

So there's confusion because while I agree with the principle of the Sabbath as a sign, I just wonder how can my not working be a witness since most folks have no idea....Do you understand?

Because the only reason you are resting on the 7th day Sabbath is because God told you to. It is totally based on the word of God, not human reasoning or anything in nature. (For instance, a person might say that they don't lie because it makes sense that lying is not good, but apart from the Bible, the Seventh-day Sabbath does not make sense. A rest, yes, but why necessarily on Saturday rather on some other day?) So the Sabbath cannot be proven to be true, other than by faith in the word of God. Therefore God has chosen it as the symbol of pure faith and trust in Him.

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

You didn't answer a single question. Please answer the questions.

explain to me why Joseph, who was "Ruler over ALL Egypt, didn't teach, preach or command Sabbaths to the Egyptians. Then answer the rest of my questions:

1. So, what's your explanation that none of the prophets ever commanded the Gentile nations to keep the Sabbath?

Do you have any proof that Joseph taught them anything about God?

So if they did not know about God, why would he have preached to them about the Sabbath? Why would you expect to find Joseph only talking to them about the Sabbath?

To pick out the Sabbath as something that Joseph would have taught them, and then when you don't see this, to say the silence proves that the Sabbath did not exist, seems to me rather bad logic. It is called a straw man argument. The person creates the straw man, then knocks it down.

Doesn't work that way. I have read many many books on the subject and have never even seen such a tactic used before. For good reason.

Answer: May I suggest you read the story of Joseph and see if you can find him talking about sin and wickedness against God. If he was not afraid to talk about sin against God. As "Ruler over all Egypt" and you think he had no responsibility to preach the Sabbath to him or his nation. It is perfectly logical to ask, if Joseph spoke to them about sin and wickedness, he likewise was obligatedto tell them about what you all teach is the most important commandment.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you have any proof that Joseph taught them anything about God?

So if they did not know about God, why would he have preached to them about the Sabbath? Why would you expect to find Joseph only talking to them about the Sabbath?

To pick out the Sabbath as something that Joseph would have taught them, and then when you don't see this, to say the silence proves that the Sabbath did not exist, seems to me rather bad logic. It is called a straw man argument. The person creates the straw man, then knocks it down.

Doesn't work that way. I have read many many books on the subject and have never even seen such a tactic used before. For good reason.

[/quote']

Answer: May I suggest you read the story of Joseph and see if you can find him talking about sin and wickedness against God. If he was not afraid to talk about sin against God. As "Ruler over all Egypt" and you think he had no responsibility to preach the Sabbath to him or his nation. It is perfectly logical to ask, if Joseph spoke to them about sin and wickedness, he likewise was obligatedto tell them about what you all teach is the most important commandment.

Your assumption has a problem, though, because it avoids the fact that the Bible does not record Joseph saying lots of things that we can assume he did tell them, or things that it makes sense he might have told them. The same with the prophets, etc. But in any case, what your argument does it make an assumption and then try to use that assumption to prove something, all based on an assumption. This is why such an argument is virtually never used in debates or books about the Sabbath. By using such an argument, we could prove many things that everyone knows are not true. In a word, it's an invalid argument.

By the way, you might want to do a search regarding the Sabbath on the Forum, because almost every argument or idea against the Sabbath has already been discussed many, many times.

[John317]

Question:

You will notice that the early chapters of Genesis refer to the weekly cycle. Where does that come from? What was the origin the whole idea of the 7 day week, going all the way back to at least the time of Noah?

[rush4hire]

Admit it, you don't know the difference between the descendants of Jacob and the descendants of Ishmael. You think both were required to keep the Sabbath don't you? Yes or No?

I'll admit it. I don't know the difference between Jew and Gentile. And God doesn't either:

[color:#BF0000]Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

The Sabbath was instituted at the time marriage was instituted, at Creation, before there ever was a Jew or a Greek.

[color:#BF0000]Gen. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

All the world over recognizes a 7 day week. Most, if not all, cultures recognize one day as set apart for religious meeting. This is a perfectly normal thing. Some today have decided to not recognize the Sun God anymore. They realize that's where Sunday originated. Also it's not what God specified.

Did The Apostles Keep Sunday?

The topic that got me banned from bibleforums.org

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=19671

[Robert]

Most, if not all, cultures recognize one day as set apart for religious meeting. This is a perfectly normal thing.

The Sabbath is not about a worship service. Neither Genesis 2 nor Ex 20 refer to this....It's just not in the moral law.

Rob

[rush4hire]

Wow, Humble B, you really are an anti-Sabbath zealot. They sure sent the right guy for the job. You have lot's of arguments.

There is a big demand for such doctrine. We live in a 7 day a week world. I could be making $27 / hour building oil rigs if I didn't have to keep the Sabbath. They work 7 days a week, around the clock to get those rigs set up as fast as possible for the oil companies, who's god is money. They do not know the fear of God.

The airlines and bus lines, Wal-Mart, etc, run 7 days a week. They laugh at the Sabbath. People work and shop and do whatever they want on whatever day they want. It is the nature of fallen man to be willful and not to fear God and keep His commandments.

1. So, what's your explanation that none of the prophets ever commanded the Gentile nations to keep the Sabbath?

[Woody]

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Yes, you are right, Rob, the law was never intended to save anyone, nor can it, ever.

John317. Could you please explain this statement. IF the keeping of the law does not save anyone ... why did Jesus come to this earth and keep the Law? The last I knew ... the wages of sin is DEATH.

[Robert]

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Yes, you are right, Rob, the law was never intended to save anyone, nor can it, ever.

John317. Could you please explain this statement. IF the keeping of the law does not save anyone ... why did Jesus come to this earth and keep the Law? The last I knew ... the wages of sin is DEATH.

Well, I'm not John, but let me give you a quick answer:

1] The law requires perfection. One sin and you've had it. You sin once you can never gain heaven by law.

2] The law is exceedingly broad in it's demands. Essentially the law requires only agape love. Anything outside this is self-love

On the practical level the law is a standard (something, by the grace of God we aim for). So we come up short...it doesn't matter because we are not "under the law, but under grace."

Now, the way I see it there are two ditches in the Christian walk:

A] On the one hand there's the ditch of self-righteousness and legalism.

B] On the other hand there's indulging and living for the flesh. Sin, even though we do it, should never be thought of as "okay". Yes, we sin, but we should acknowledge & confess sin when the Spirit brings it to our attention. Not because we fear God...or we think we are lost, but because sin (as it's center) is putting a knife in Christ. It's murdering the One who is servant of all. And so we struggle...

Rob

[Woody]

Thanks Rob. I like what you have said.

[Robert]

On the practical level the law is a standard (something, by the grace of God we aim for).

Gal 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are:

1] immorality, impurity, sensuality, [sexual sins]

2] idolatry, sorcery,

3] enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice [condone, refuse to repent] such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

There's Christian living in a nutshell. Notice, nothing mentioned about the Sabbath! Why not?

Because the Sabbath has nothing to do with loving your neighbor as yourself. The Sabbath is an end-time symbol of the righteous we already have by faith in Jesus Christ. It's is a sign of faith for those who understand it. That is why we are not to impose this on those who disagree with us. If we do then we can be rightly called legalists.

Rob

[Contented]

I'm joining in way late here! But I'm responding to a comment somewhere back in the beginning from Robert. Just a comment regarding keeping the Sabbath because God finished a perfect work and did no more creating after the Sabbath. Then man spoiled it all and the work is no longer perfect, therefore if the Sabbath is to be preached it must be done 'away from the law' because creation is no longer sinless.

It strikes me that we do not keep the Sabbath because 'we' are, or the 'world' ought to be, perfect or sinless, or that the Sabbath is kept legalistically if not, - it is because God wants us to 'REMEMBER', - it's not what 'is, but its what'was', and what 'will be'again. It's God's way, like Passover, for example, of helping us 'not forget' who HE is, what HE is to us. The Sabbath was created for us, and not us for the Sabbath, so that we will never forget who made us, not so that we remember how badly we have messed it up!

Keeping the Sabbath does not indicate that we agree that His creation, being no longer perfect, is therefore unworthy of the Sabbath. The commandments (the law), themselves, were given to Moses long after sin entered the world! But God is still perfect - and he still gives us the Sabbath!