Did God Break the Commandments?

[Woody]

Forgive me if there is a thread on this topic. If so just let me know where it is and I will transfer my thoughts there.

But ... I have to wonder if God broke the commandments when he ordered others to kill people and animals in the OT.

Quote:

1 Sam. 15:3 " Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

Or what does this say about the commandments? Are there situations when the principle is not the principle? Is there some flexibility in the commandments. Are some no longer in effect? (I am not saying I believe this ... just throwing out the question.)

Anyway ... my focus here is on why God can get away with breaking his own commandments. Or do you classify him in a different catagory? But then why would he instruct 'others' to disobey the commandments and help them? I have a hard time calling this justice. It certainly is not the kind of justice that I know of.

Any help?

[John317]

Important question.

I think it's essential, first of all, to distinguish between the prohibition in the commandments not to murder and the command of God to take human life. If God is truly the one ordering the killing, by definition it is not "murder."

A second point I would make is that God is above the law since He made the law as well as everything else. Since He made the law, He cannot at the same time be subject to the law. The law did not make God but God made the law. The law is not above God.

The moral law is a written expression of God's character of love suited to meet the human conditions in this world.

But since God exists and operates outside of human conditions and standards (except as He has entered it in the person of Jesus Christ), it is impossible to define or limit God's activities and ways of relating to His universe by the way humans relate to the universe.

God is love and therefore His law is also love. While God cannot violate His own character of love, our limited human viewpoint means that we're not always able to see clearly in every particular instance how that principle applies in the history of God's dealings with the human race.

The only limitations on God are those that proceed from His own character. These things are impossible even for God: He cannot lie; he cannot act in a way that is contrary to His loving character; he cannot will Himself into non-existence; etc.

Does this begin to help a little?

[Woody]

Thanks John317. Yes. I am able to grasp some of it. But when it comes to killing babies ... I do get a little confused. Why would He order killing babies?

[John317]

That's a very tough thing to resolve, for sure. It's similar to questions such as why God would allow a mother to kill all of her babies.

I don't think it's possible to come to a totally satisfactory answer, mostly because we are so limited in our knowledge of God's resolutions of the sin problem. For instance, what if God plans to save all those babies? We don't know for a fact that this is the case, but we also can't rule it out.

It's one of those subjects that require faith that God will do what is in accordance with love.

He has proven that He loves all human beings and we have to trust that He will do everything He possibly can to save them, including the babies.

I was going to include a few additional points but I have to go for now, so I will be back and add some more, later.

[Robert]

Important question.

I think it's essential, first of all, to distinguish between the prohibition in the commandments not to murder and the command of God to take human life. If God is truly the one ordering the killing, by definition it is not "murder."

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Important question.

I think it's essential, first of all, to distinguish between the prohibition in the commandments not to murder and the command of God to take human life. If God is truly the one ordering the killing, by definition it is not "murder."

If God told me to murder...kill...or whatever, I would say get thee behind me Satan.

OK. That's clear. But that means you would have done differently than Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Elijah, etc.

Is that trust in God?

Would the Bible hold up those men as role models of faith if they had refused to do God's command? Or are you saying that they only thought it was God's command but that it was not God's command at all?

Whose command were they obeying if not God's?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

If God told me to murder...kill...or whatever, I would say get thee behind me Satan. [/quote']

OK. That's clear. But that means you would have done differently than Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Elijah, etc.

Is that trust in God?

Would the Bible hold up those men as role models of faith if they had refused to do God's command?

The one I know of is Abraham....God had promised that through Abraham's seed (Issac) the Messiah would come. If Issac died then the promise would be made void. Abraham believed that if he killed Issac, God would have to immediately raise him if He was to keep His promise. That's why Abraham was willing to obey....He believed God's promise....

Rob

[Robert]

If God is truly the one ordering the killing, by definition it is not "murder."

You know...I still fall short of God's agape. There's still self-love in my life and if you came at me to do me harm in the name of God, well, you'd be pushing up daises.

Rob

[Robert]

If God is truly the one ordering the killing, by definition it is not "murder."

Luke 9:51 And it came about, when the days were approaching for His [Christ's] ascension, that He resolutely set His face to go to Jerusalem; 52 and He sent messengers on ahead of Him. And they went, and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make arrangements for Him. 53 And they did not receive Him, because He was journeying with His face toward Jerusalem. 54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” 55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; 56 for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” And they went on to another village.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

OK. That's clear. But that means you would have done differently than Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Elijah, etc.

Is that trust in God?

Would the Bible hold up those men as role models of faith if they had refused to do God's command? [/quote']

Quote:

The one I know of is Abraham....God had promised that through Abraham's seed (Issac) the Messiah would come. If Issac died then the promise would be made void. Abraham believed that if he killed Issac, God would have to immediately raise him if He was to keep His promise. That's why Abraham was willing to obey....He believed God's promise....

Rob

That is true, Rob. Agreed.

Now what about Moses, Joshua, and Elijah?

[Robert]

Now what about Moses, Joshua, and Elijah?

Don't care...

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Now what about Moses, Joshua, and Elijah?

Don't care...

OK. But why not? Do you believe Moses was wrong to think and say that God had told him to slay the rebellious idolators at Sinai? Do you believe Joshua was wrong to do what he did? Or Elijah?

[rush4hire]

I think it's essential, first of all, to distinguish between the prohibition in the commandments not to murder and the command of God to take human life. If God is truly the one ordering the killing, by definition it is not "murder."

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Don't care...[/quote']

OK. But why not? Do you believe Moses was wrong to think and say that God had told him to slay the rebellious idolators at Sinai? Do you believe Joshua was wrong to do what he did? Or Elijah?

Much of what happened in the Old Testament is linked to the Old Covenant (obey and live, disobey and die). To explain it all is almost impossible, but to say that killing is okay, well then, you've got to say that under certain conditions adultery is okay...and stealing is okay....And so you can justify sin until its all okay.

[Robert]

There is such a thing as "the lesser of two evils". If you have to lie to save a life, then that would be the thing to do. At that point, you are forced to choose between lying and murder. But in a case like that, the person would not be your neighbor, but your enemy:

Boy...you sure justify sin. You are calling evil, good. Let me give you a lesson in law keeping:

Matt 5:21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 “But I [Christ] say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court

If you are angry...if you hate someone, for whatever reason, you are a murderer!

Matt 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.’ 44 “But I [Christ] say to you, love [agape] your enemies

You are to love your enemies....Look at the example left by Christ. All His life He lived for everyone else. There wasn't a selfish bone in His body. And yet the Jewish leadership, primarily because He upset their preconceived ideas of the law, had Him crucified.

Now step forward.....Christ is on the cross. Clearly from a human point of view, these murders are Christ's enemies. According to your heretical view, Christ should have come down off the cross (and thereby saved Himself - to hell with everyone else) and pulled out a can of whip butt! Christ, in your sin loving mentality, would have been just in saving Himself (preserving His own life) and in slaughtering His enemies, right? Wrong!

Instead of giving into Lucifer's principle of self-love, Christ loved His enemies more than Himself. In His mind He was not just dying for 3 days, but for eternity. So Christ was willing to give up heaven for eternity (that's the 2nd death) not for His friends, but His enemies. But you, in your wickedness, justify sin. You justify murder...you justify the love of self...you justify lying and on and on and on.

That's why I point out that you guys are nothing...absolutely nothing like Christ. In fact the last generation of Christians, we are told, "loved not their lives even unto death." They didn't fight back....They didn't pull out their 44 and return some flying lead. No, they are reflecting their Master - Jesus Christ. Let's continue:

Luke 6:27 “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, [how?] do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

[Robert]

God's angel's lie. But they don't do bear false witness against their neighbors. Only the enemies of God that intend to do His people harm. Therefore if killing is done in self-defense, then so is lying.

John 12:25 “He who loves his life loses it; and he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal. 26 “If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me...."

"Self-renunciation is the great law of self-preservation, and self-preservation is the law of self-destruction." [sT July 1-1897]

[Woody]

Oh MY! What have I done?!!

(by starting this thread)

[rush4hire]

Originally Posted By: rush4hire

God's angel's lie. But they don't do bear false witness against their neighbors. Only the enemies of God that intend to do His people harm. Therefore if killing is done in self-defense, then so is lying.

John 12:25 “He who loves his life loses it; and he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal. 26 “If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me...."

"Self-renunciation is the great law of self-preservation, and self-preservation is the law of self-destruction." [sT July 1-1897]

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

John 12:25 “He who loves his life loses it; and he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal. 26 “If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me...."

"Self-renunciation is the great law of self-preservation, and self-preservation is the law of self-destruction." [sT July 1-1897']

Well, you're not even trying to think.

Let's see How Christ, and He is our example, treated His enemies:

As Christ hung on the cross experiencing God's abandonment, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and his murderers at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that His enemies may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). In other words "when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him [God] through the death of his Son." (Romans 5:10)

In other words, the supreme sacrifice is that Jesus was willing to accept our curse and give us His life in exchange. It was not a question of saving Himself and His enemies. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between those torturing Him and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this; He was saying that He loves His enemies more than Himself. That is God’s agape

All this self-love and self-preservation of yours proves one thing: you are a sinner and you need Christ's righteousness!

Rob

[Robert]

....if some sick serial killer breaks into your house to kill your family and eat their genitals while you watch and then kill you slowly as a sacrifice to Satan, then you should seek to prevent that by pulling out your six shooter and blowing sick freak's head off, like you would put down a rabid dog or a coyote that's eating your chickens.

[Robert]

That's why Christ said, "all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."

Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

Here is God's remnant....Note that they are reflecting Christ....They didn't pull out six-shooters and blaze away....No, they loved their enemies more than themselves even unto death.

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

That's why Christ said, "all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."

Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

Here is God's remnant....Note that they are reflecting Christ....They didn't pull out six-shooters and blaze away....No, they loved their enemies more than themselves even unto death.

Rob

1 Peter 2:21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 22 “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.” 23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats.

[rush4hire]

[color:#BF0000]Matt. 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

That doesn't apply to self-defense. Those that live by the sword are those who make a living by the sword. Those are mercenaries, hired killers. The kind that where hired to take Jesus captive. They are as bad as hit-men who are willing to commit murder for money. They are not fighting for a cause or to defend the weak, but only for money.

Jesus was not against self-defense, but He wanted people to know he was not like the false messiahs who where militaristic and wanted to fight against Rome.

[color:#BF0000]Rev. 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Did that verse apply to the disciples? No. It applies to those who kill Christ's disciples. Christ's disciples can fight in an army that defends a country that provides religious freedom, but they are not to fight to defend their faith. They are to die for their faith. So if one church sends military force to wipe out another church, which one is God's church?

[color:#BF0000]Rev. 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Do you have an ear? Then hear this. Here is the patience of the saints. The true saints of God are those being killed and not those who are killing. Though the killers claim to be God's people, they are not. This is a very clear message and a very important point of Bible prophecy and present truth.

Here again:

[color:#BF0000]John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

So we know for sure that if one church kills another church, the true church is not the one killing, but the one being killed. There can be no doubt about this. Those killing people for their beliefs do not know God.

[color:#BF0000]John 16:3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Even if they think they are serving God, they still do not have eternal life, because eternal life IS knowing God.

[color:#BF0000]John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I didn't read about Jesus coming down from the cross with a six shooter and blowing away those sick freaking, psychos! Instead Christ choose to give up heaven so that these "sick freaking, psychos" might take His place in heaven.

[Robert]

[color:#BF0000]Matt. 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

That doesn't apply to self-defense. Those that live by the sword are those who make a living by the sword. Those are mercenaries, hired killers. The kind that where hired to take Jesus captive. They are as bad as hit-men who are willing to commit murder for money. They are not fighting for a cause or to defend the weak, but only for money.

Then Christ should have told the disciple who missed and cut off the ear to do them all in, but He didn't. Instead He placed the man's ear back to his head and told the mercenary, hired killer, disciple that those who live by sword will die by the sword.

[Robert]

Here again:

[color:#BF0000]John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

So we know for sure that if one church kills another church, the true church is not the one killing, but the one being killed. There can be no doubt about this. Those killing people for their beliefs do not know God.

Here's a better translation:

"in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things [why?] because they do not known the Father or me."

What don't they know about Jesus and the Father? They don't know that God is agape...God is love. There is no harm...there is no implied threat...there is no coercion in God's love. As Ellen White states, "God kills no one...man kills himself."

John's focus is on those religious folks who think they've got God all figured out when in fact that have Him all wrong. Instead of One who kills...instead of One who tortures...God wouldn't harm a gnat.

Jesus came to represent the Father. Jesus said, "If you've seen Me you've seen the Father.....We are One and the same." Jesus was the biggest pacifist that ever walked the face of this earth.

It is the ignorant folks who think that God kills His enemies....It is the ignorant folks who actually thinks God creates evil...that He killed Saul...that He causes babies to be born blind, mute or deaf. It is these folks that will kill in the name of God. That's the folks to worry about...

Paul is a good example. Before his conversion He killed in the name of God. For one he only knew a God of cruel wrath...a vindictive God:

I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. [1 Tim 1:12-14]

So Saul took on the same character he thought his God had. In short, it's the conservative, self-righteous, legalists that you need to be worried about....

Rob