Robert Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Quote: JOHN3:17--I don't think it's faith that accuses God of being the devil for doing what His Word clearly says God does and will do again before He brings an end to sin, suffering, and death. The wages of sin is death. Sin pays in death. It doesn't say God kills...it says sin kills. If you say God kills then God = sin. As for "His word clearly says", well, it's not that clear at all. How so? You seem to ignore those "other statements" and conveniently at that..... I've considered them. Who made the law that makes sin kill? Who resurrects all the lost at the end of the 1000 years? How does that happen? Sin doesn't need permission to kill you. I mean, John, you were born in death row. You are born dying. We are mortals because we are sinners.....Sin pays in death. Quote
Robert Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert "We [EGW includes herself] have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light [truth] that is yet to come to us." 1] Define a glimmer: "A faint, unsteady light; feeble, scattered rays of light; also, a gleam." 2] Notice that "that is yet to come" is in the future tense! How do I read her quote? We have only faint, feeble, scattered rays of truth compared to that, which is yet to come to us. Then why do many Adventists make Ellen White the end all be all of human existence? She plainly states she had limited light. Two points here: 1) Your statement is also true of all the Bible prophets. What Bible prophet or apostle had unlimited light? Can you name one who had unlimited light? 2) Did she mean for us to believe that her writings are untrustworthy and to be discarded? Doesn't she also write about teachings which are not to be changed at all? Isn't one such teaching regarding the sanctuary in heaven? We need to read everything on the subject, and not be satisfied by reading a little bit here and there. The same with the Bible. Take into consideration everything she says on the subject. Oh, I get it...if you can't bring up EGW to a certain level, bring the Bible down. This is the mark of a cult. Quote
Robert Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert "We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible." [EGW'] That can become the stock answer for anything we don't like, can't it? Even though it is unrelated and taken out of context. You mean I must agree with EGW? Must I make her my infallible source to truth? Should she be my pope? Well, I did that for about 7 years until I became a devil. Never, never, go to EGW first. Alway know your Bible...especially Paul....Know it backwards and forwards....Then, if you feel like it, go see what EGW says. BC- SpM TI- Spalding and Magan Collection PR- 01 PG- 174 But don’t you quote Sister White. I don’t want you ever to quote Sister White until you get your vantage ground where you know where you are. Quote the Bible. Talk the Bible. It is full of meat, full of fatness. Carry it right out in your life, and you will know more Bible than you know now. You will have fresh matter - O, you will have precious matter; you won’t be going over and over the same ground, and you will see a world saved. You will see souls for whom Christ has died. And I ask you to put on the armor, every piece of it, and be sure that your feet are shod with the preparation of the gospel. As to out of context...please, you're joking! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 17, 2008 Moderators Posted September 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 I've considered them. Who made the law that makes sin kill? Who resurrects all the lost at the end of the 1000 years? How does that happen? [/quote'] Sin doesn't need permission to kill you. I mean, John, you were born in death row. You are born dying. We are mortals because we are sinners.....Sin pays in death. Sin kills us because God made it do that. God could have made the universe any way He wanted to, couldn't He? He could have made it so that sin would not kill anyone. He could have made people so that they could not possibly die no matter what they did. Why didn't God do that? Why did God make it so that sin kills? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Sin kills us because God made it do that. ? Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, [why?] because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 [size:17pt]Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses What is Paul telling us? Sin was producing death (the wages of sin) long before the law was posted. So what was killing? Sin! Hence, before the law, death reigned from Adam unit Moses. Rob Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 17, 2008 Moderators Posted September 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Two points here: 1).... What Bible prophet or apostle had unlimited light? Can you name one who had unlimited light? 2) Did she mean for us to believe that her writings are untrustworthy and to be discarded? Doesn't she also write about teachings which are not to be changed at all? Isn't one such teaching regarding the sanctuary in heaven? We need to read everything on the subject, and not be satisfied by reading a little bit here and there. The same with the Bible. Take into consideration everything she says on the subject. Oh, I get it...if you can't bring up EGW to a certain level, bring the Bible down. This is the mark of a cult. Is it true? If it is not true, tell how it is not true. If it is true, why not say it is? And if it is true, how does telling the truth bring the Bible down? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 17, 2008 Moderators Posted September 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Sin kills us because God made it do that. ? Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, [why?] because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 [size:17pt]Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses What is Paul telling us? Sin was producing death (the wages of sin) long before the law was posted. So what was killing? Sin! Hence, before the law, death reigned from Adam unit Moses. Rob Who designed the universe the way it is, with its spiritual and physical laws? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Rom 5:12 Therefore' date=' just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, [why?'] because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 [size:17pt]Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses What is Paul telling us? Sin was producing death (the wages of sin) long before the law was posted. So what was killing? Sin! Hence, before the law, death reigned from Adam unit Moses. Rob Who designed the universe the way it is, with its spiritual and physical laws? There was no sin in the beginning, but then there was never a beginning. Sin, in a nutshell, is the love of self. Self-love brings carelessness...it brings competition. As long as I come out on top it doesn't matter how I trash things. That's human nature....Hence one of reasons this world is polluted. All these things, born from the love of self, ultimately brings death. It comes back to God doesn't kill. He's the author of life, not death. Lucifer, and his love of self, brings death. Even Satan is aging (according to Ellen) and I think she's right. Rob Quote
Robert Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Is it true? If it is not true, tell how it is not true. If it is true, why not say it is? And if it is true, how does telling the truth bring the Bible down? Is what you say here about being true, true? IF is is not true, tell how it is not true. IF is is true, why not say it is? Two can play the game, Johnny Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 17, 2008 Moderators Posted September 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Is it true? If it is not true, tell how it is not true. If it is true, why not say it is? And if it is true, how does telling the truth bring the Bible down? Is what you say here about being true, true? IF is is not true, tell how it is not true. IF is is true, why not say it is? Two can play the game, Johnny No game. Yes, It is true that all the Bible prophets had limited light. Do you agree? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Sin kills us because God made it do that. ? Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, [why?] because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 [size:17pt]Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses What is Paul telling us? Sin was producing death (the wages of sin) long before the law was posted. So what was killing? Sin! Hence, before the law, death reigned from Adam unit Moses. Rob In heaven Lucifer came up with the idea of "self". "One can't be happy unless he loves himself" so said Lucifer. Sounded good on paper, but the only way to truly know was to allow it to develop. For over 6000 years we have seen the fruit of sin. Why does sin kill? First of all immortality is an impossibility outside the author of life, God. Since the love of self is in complete opposition to God's love, God and mankind went their separate ways. Outside God is death. You just can't have life independent of God. The reason things have existed as long as they have is because God did an excellent job designing everything in this world, yet it is all dying. Our batteries are running out... Rob Quote
Robert Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Is what you say here about being true, true? IF is is not true, tell how it is not true. IF is is true, why not say it is? Two can play the game, Johnny [/quote'] No game. Yes, It is true that all the Bible prophets had limited light. Do you agree? 1] Ellen isn't a part of the Bible 2] The Bible is the word of God 3] End of story Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 17, 2008 Moderators Posted September 17, 2008 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Who made the laws of the universe, one of which is that sin results in death? Who made that law? Does that law exist apart from God's decision and design? John, you are making this complicated. Outside God is death....Life is impossible outside God. Sin brought separation...which means God retreated. The moment God exited Adam that moment he began to die. Why? Sin took the place of God or better yet, self-love took the place of agape (as in God IS agape). The wages...the fruit...the results of sin (singular) is death. If you say God kills, then God is sin.... Rob Quote
rush4hire Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 But God chose to make the universe this way-- so that sin results in painful, destructive consequences and finally in death. He could have done otherwise. I don't think God set anything up so that sin would cause disaster. It's just a natural result. It's like saying God made it so if you jump off a tall building, you will die. It's just the universal law of gravity. God just never intended that someone should ever jump off a tall building. God would have actually had to done something special to make it so sin doesn't cause a really bad result. And he sort of did, through the grace of Christ. [color:#BF0000]John 8:51 If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Though God said: [color:#BF0000]Gen. 2:17 ..in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. and [color:#BF0000]Romans 6:23 the wages of sin [is] death but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So without the grace of Christ, sin would just get worse and worse, and there would be no way for a person to stop himself from sinning. And it wouldn't take long for him to die. But because of Christ, there is healing. People sin, but through Christ they can repent and stop sinning and show their loyalty to their Creator even by letting the sin loving world torture and kill them. Ya. In order to stop sinning, you have to be let the world crucify you. That might be why alot of people don't want to stop sinning. They know that the Devil will get rea mad and the Devil has control over the whole world through his deceptions. Quote I cant make a sig with 30 chrs
rush4hire Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 The wages...the fruit...the results of sin (singular) is death. If you say God kills, then God is sin.... If a dog is diseased and greatly suffering, eventually he will die, but sometimes an owner is moved with pity to put the dog to sleep. This is considered a humane thing to do. So disease kills. Also the owner kills. Both kill. Which is more merciful? Which one loves the dog more? The disease, or the owner? And don't come up with some funky idea and say: "OK, so I guess I'll go kill your family to put them out of their misery." Quote I cant make a sig with 30 chrs
rush4hire Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Deut 19:19 Thus you shall purge the evil from among you. 20 “And the rest will hear and be afraid, and will never again do such an evil thing among you. 21 “Thus you shall not show pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. Matt 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil When Israel was a nation, they took care of their own capital punishment. They didn't let homosexuality, spiritualism, or any other abomination just take over. This is a good thing. Israel is no longer a nation, but the secular government takes care of capital punishment. The church has such a revelation that such abominations do not spread, not because we put the people to death, but homosexuality and spiritualism can now be healed: [color:#BF0000]Acts 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men [and] brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Acts 16:16 ...a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us... ... 16:18 Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. So ya, things are a bit more advanced. The sin is never justified. The same sins are as much or more condemned now, but now they can be treated. Just like some diseases where fatal in the past, but now can be healed, through advanced technology and greater knowledge. Those who don't want such healing, won't be a part of the church. And if they somehow are, they are dis-fellowshipped, or they are never baptized. Usually they are driven away by the angels, or go away because they are tormented in the presence of the saints. Quote I cant make a sig with 30 chrs
Moderators John317 Posted September 19, 2008 Moderators Posted September 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 But God chose to make the universe this way-- so that sin results in painful, destructive consequences and finally in death. He could have done otherwise. I don't think God set anything up so that sin would cause disaster. It's just a natural result. It's like saying God made it so if you jump off a tall building, you will die. It's just the universal law of gravity. God just never intended that someone should ever jump off a tall building. God would have actually had to done something special to make it so sin doesn't cause a really bad result. And he sort of did, through the grace of Christ. The concept of the natural immortality of the soul is that God has made mankind in such a way that sin cannot result in death or in the total destruction of man. He merely goes into a different dimension of existence. This concept and belief permeates almost all pagan religions, such as Hinduism, and even most Christian denominations. There is no question that God made the universe the way He did with great foresight and wisdom and deliberation. Everything has a reason. He made the universe so that those who rebel against the Life-giver cannot live forever but die. That was the result of God's love. Think of God's making mankind and the universe so that sinners and rebels could continue to live indefinitely apart from Him. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
rush4hire Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 That doesn't make any sense, John. Quote I cant make a sig with 30 chrs
cardw Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 This whole thread demonstrates the complete failure of using the Bible as a basis for ethical behavior. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
Woody Posted September 19, 2008 Author Posted September 19, 2008 It just shows that given any 100 dedicated Christians ... you will come up with 100 completely different dedicated opinions. This just demontrates the limitations on knowledge and the importance on a relationship with Jesus. So ... I guess in some ways ... I tend to agree with you cardw. All this high and mighty 'knowledge' or lack of just is not up to what it is cracked up to be. Bottom line ... we can agree to differ. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Deut 19:19 Thus you shall purge the evil from among you. 20 “And the rest will hear and be afraid, and will never again do such an evil thing among you. 21 “Thus you shall not show pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. Matt 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil When Israel was a nation, they took care of their own capital punishment. They didn't let homosexuality, spiritualism, or any other abomination just take over. This is a good thing. And, if God killed, killing you would also be good since you are as sinner, even if you aren't living just like the heathen. Deut 21:18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us….” 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid. Hmmm? Quote
Robert Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 When Israel was a nation, they took care of their own capital punishment. They didn't let homosexuality, spiritualism, or any other abomination just take over. This is a good thing. No, it's a bad thing. 1] It's Old Covenant. 2] Fear/punishment doesn't work. IF it did the jails would be empty. 3] God doesn't kill. He doesn't use compulsion. So it's outside God's character.... 4] If God's going to kill, then everyone must die because sin is sin. 5] If God let just one of us in heaven it would become a living hell. First we must lose the nature....Human nature was never allowed to develop in heaven for obvious reasons. Quote
Robert Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 All this high and mighty 'knowledge' or lack of just is not up to what it is cracked up to be. Hmmm? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted September 19, 2008 Moderators Posted September 19, 2008 That doesn't make any sense, John. Which sentence here doesn't make sense to you? Tell why not. Quote: The concept of the natural immortality of the soul is that God has made mankind in such a way that sin cannot result in death or in the total destruction of man. He merely goes into a different dimension of existence. This concept and belief permeates almost all pagan religions, such as Hinduism, and even most Christian denominations. There is no question that God made the universe the way He did with great foresight and wisdom and deliberation. Everything has a reason. He made the universe so that those who rebel against the Life-giver cannot live forever but die. That was the result of God's love. Think of God's making mankind and the universe so that sinners and rebels could continue to live indefinitely apart from Him. Also, what do you think the significance is of Genesis 3: 22-24? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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