Did God Break the Commandments?

[Robert]

in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things [why?] because they do not known the Father or me.

[Robert]

Jesus came to represent the Father. Jesus said, "If you've seen Me you've seen the Father.....We are One and the same." Jesus was the biggest pacifist that ever walked the face of this earth.

"...The law of self-renouncing love [i.e., that love which is not self-seeking] is the law of life for earth and heaven...." [DA 19]

"Self-renunciation is the great law of self-preservation, and self-preservation is the law of self-destruction." [sT July 1-1897]

If I take a gun and shoot someone about to do me harm I've for now preserved my life, but Ellen White (and she is correct) say that's the law of self-destruction.

You see when it comes down to it all us are self-seeking. We think the sun revolves around us. We are totally selfish by nature. We are every ready to defend our lives...our goods...our property.

Mahatma Gandhi remarked: "An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind."

Likewise, if we seek to preserve our lives against our enemies, the spirit of God's law says that we are actually bringing self-destruction.

Think about war....Who really wins? No one....How many bodies lay in graves because of war?

Here's what the Bible says about war:

James 4:1 What causes wars, and what causes fightings among you? Is it not your passions [your self-seeking nature] that are at war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have; so you kill. And you covet and cannot obtain; so you fight and wage war.

Rob

[Robert]

Mahatma Gandhi remarked: "An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind."

Likewise, if we seek to preserve our lives against our enemies, the spirit of God's law says that we are actually bringing self-destruction.

1 Peter 2:21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22 who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; 23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;

That's our example! Why aren't we living His life? We love ourselves....We are afraid!

To get over this fear we need two things:

1] We need to have the assurance of salvation!

2] We need to understand God's love....We need to get our picture of God right or we will never make it through the time of trouble. Because in the TOT folks will be trying to kill you in the name of God.

If you've got the wrong image of God, you will renounce your faith and join those self-righteous, blood-thirsty hypocrites who are trying to kill you. They'll be the gun-toting, redneck hypocrites who think that their doing God a favor....Scary!

Folks, this stuff is very important. We've got to understand God's love or we will cave in....

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[rush4hire]

God wouldn't harm a gnat.

I was going to show how God killed the flies, but it says He removed them. I would imagine He killed them, but I don't have a case. They could have went somewhere else:

[color:#BF0000]Exodus 8:31 And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; and he removed the swarms [of flies] from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people; there remained not one.

It does say that when God removed the locusts, they where cast into the Red Sea:

[color:#BF0000]Exo. 10:19 And the LORD turned a mighty strong west wind, which took away the locusts, and cast them into the Red sea; there remained not one locust in all the coasts of Egypt.

So God did kill the locusts. Unless you want to say the sea killed them.

Then the frogs:

[color:#BF0000]Exo. 8:13 And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; and the frogs died out of the houses, out of the villages, and out of the fields.

8:14 And they gathered them together upon heaps: and the land stank.

Then the cattle:

[color:#BF0000]Exo. 9:6 And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle of Egypt died: but of the cattle of the children of Israel died not one.

I suppose you would say that Satan killed the locusts, frogs, and cattle?

I can see God and Satan in cahoots. God says: "OK, here's the deal. I create the frogs and then when I give the signal, you go and kill them. Be ready now. Alot is depending on you. Everyone knows I can't hurt a gnat. That's why your job is important."

That's ludicrous.

But wait. Maybe God was dependent on Satan to kill those things. What about germs and viruses? These are precious life forms, right? Let's say Jesus healed someone with a bad fever. He has an infection of some virus or germ. Does Jesus transport that virus colony safely to another host? Maybe a pile of poo or something?

What about these swine:

[color:#BF0000]Matt. 8:31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

8:32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

Those swine would not have died if Jesus had not given the demons permission to enter them. So Jesus was responsible for killing the swine. If Jesus wanted to save the swine, He should have said: "Too bad, you gotta go to the abyss. I can't let you hurt these poor swine!"

What about the animals God got the skins from? Did he whistle for Satan to kill those too? Did God create the skins from the dirt?

[color:#BF0000]Gen. 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

[Robert]

You wasted all that time to refute an expression like wouldn't even hurt a gnat? You have issues....

Look, if you want to to worship a god who would do worse than Hitler, you go right ahead...because in the end you'll reflect his character.

Rob

[Robert]

"Light, on the dark side of God" by MM Campbell (SDA)

Given our traditional view of God, Christians (like their concept of Him) are gentle and kind much of the time, except when the situation seems to call for gossip or destructive criticism or indifference to human woe or venting destructive emotions or taking human life. Isn't this how we see God's ways? The human mind has an extraordinary capacity for kindness, except toward those "demonized" humans we believe God abhors. If we cause those to suffer, it's okay, we think. Doesn't God do the same?

Historically, the "church" has carried the traditional view of God to its logical conclusion, by itself burning the opposition. Religious bigots have bloodied the pages of history with unspeakable crimes, which surely flowed out of their picture of God.

Jesus predicted two thousand years ago that thus it would be. "The time is coming that whosoever kills you will think that he offers God service," He said (John 16:2). History confirms His prophecy. How could we, as Christians, have been so blind, so callous, so indifferent to human life? Jesus distills the answer down to its core. "These things they will do to you," He continues, "because they have not known the Father nor Me (v. 3). Because Scripture gives so many examples of God's wiping out His enemies, Christians have become confused regarding the interpretation of Jesus' words. They have concluded that when we destroy them, we're doing so as God's agents, but when they destroy us, they are fulfilling this prediction. We see our enemy as God's enemy and ourselves as His sword of justice, because for war to occur in the first place the warriors must be made to see their cause as righteous and the enemy's as evil. Yet is it not possible that Jesus meant that wherever people kill each other in the name of religion, neither side bears the signet of the living God?

It takes little imagination to see that the traditional view of God as One who can reach a point where He employs deadly force could lead to deplorable conditions; where political power could be seen as a divine mandate to force the conscience of the politically weak. In czarist Russia, as well as pre-revolutionary France, for example, the church's connection with civil power engendered terrible abuses, causing an over-correction, which ended in atheistic regimes. Communism itself began as a protest against religious cruelty.

The Holocaust is a modern case in point, where a strong tradition of Judeo-Christian ethics didn't stop good and civilized people from supporting a regime which derived its power from the spilled blood of the governed and which attempted to exterminate an entire race perceived as undeserving of mercy. Where was the outrage, the conviction that causing the death of humans was intrinsically wrong?

Northern Ireland, the Middle East, Bosnia, Kosovo further illustrate the passion with which each side, believing it carries the flag of God in a righteous cause, kills and maims innocent civilians and destroys its own homeland in a seemingly endless bloodletting, presumably praying for the blessing of their fierce, nationalistic God before sallying forth on their missions of destruction. There are no wars bloodier than religious wars. Efforts to bring stability to such regions find religious fervor an almost impossible hurdle to overcome, politically generated peace accords notwithstanding.

And who can say if our traditional view of God as a destroyer has not in many ways encouraged the widespread secularization of our world, as thoughtful men and women see all this and note its inconsistency with mercy and justice; hallmark attributes of the Christian God of whom they have been told. History offers an inexhaustible supply of illustrations of the subtle and pernicious effects the traditional view of a destroying God has had on civilization. It has opened the door to injustice and persecution throughout time; paved the way for intolerance, bigotry and the imposing of religious laws and duties upon an unconvinced people. If God can use force to get attention, the logic runs, then believers may use similar tactics to do his work. Civilizations do not rise higher morally than their concept of Deity. "Ye are of your father . . . ," Said Jesus, "and the works of your father ye will do" (John 8:44, KJV).

And history confirms it. Without a settled conviction that hurting and destroying others is inherently wrong, society positions itself over an ethical bottomless pit, with no protective absolutes to break its moral fall. Where shall we find a model for such settled conviction, if we cannot find it in God?

[rush4hire]

You wasted all that time to refute an expression like wouldn't even hurt a gnat? You have issues....

Look, if you want to to worship a god who would do worse than Hitler, you go right ahead...because in the end you'll reflect his character.

Rob

Hitler was merely a puppet in the hand of the Papacy. God is nobody's puppet.

So the Papacy, through Hitler, killed ~6 million Jews. But at the 2nd coming of Christ, God kills 6 billion people. And you're having trouble reconciling this? I guess I can try one more time to reconcile this fact.

God has to make a choice. The enemies of God get to the point where they are so organized and powerful, they will be able to seduce or destroy all of God's people, unless God intervenes. God said He would never allow that.

[color:#BF0000]Matt. 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

So, God has to have a people in this earth to witness. He can not allow them to completely perish from off the earth. If God had not destroyed the world in a flood, the wicked would have seduced or murdered all of God's faithful children. Then Satan would have had 100% control over all the whole earth.

That's what Satan will try to do now. And the wicked now have the technology, and the depravity, to do that. For now, they are held back by the angels:

[color:#BF0000]Rev. 7:1 ..I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

...

7:3 Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

So when they let those winds go, they would be responsible for hurting the people. I believe these 4 things correspond to the 4 things Jesus said people will be busy with, parties, marriage, trading, and producing. Interrupt one of these and the rest go, and someone will have to take the blame.

Then the wicked will try to eradicate all whom they feel are responsible for upsetting their peace, which will include God's people. Notice Jesus was crucified between 2 thieves. Likewise God's people will suffer with others who are not God's people.

Ok, so if God doesn't interpose and kill the wicked, the wicked will just take over and kill His loyal people. .

I think I've already said this before.

[color:#BF0000]Rev. 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

[Robert]

Ok, so if God doesn't interpose and kill the wicked, the wicked will just take over and kill His loyal people.

No, unlike you, God doesn't sin. He doesn't need to interpose and kill because for one the 1st death is nothing.

So if you are a believer, and you die, so what? Paul said it would be gain for him....

What you are attempting to do here is the same thing that Bush appealed to get his war going - fear! I'll pass.

Rob

[rush4hire]

Quote:

No, unlike you, God doesn't sin. He doesn't need to interpose and kill because for one the 1st death is nothing.

So if you are a believer, and you die, so what? Paul said it would be gain for him....

It's very clear to an honest reader that I'm not talking about one person offered as a martyr, or even 50 million.

It's very clear that God has always had, and always will have, at least a "remnant" people in the earth. That God will never allow His people to be 100% obliterated from off the earth so that Satan has control over 100% of the people. That's why God destroyed the wicked in the flood. If He had not done that, the wicked would have taken over and killed all of God's people. Then how would the Messiah be born? Then how could God's promise of redemption through Christ be fulfilled?

I've said that time and time again. It's very plain and simple to understand.

But you don't seem want simple and plain. It seems you would rather have confusion.

Quote:

ARE YOU READING THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY ladies and gentlemen? Is there any instruction given us by the Spirit of Prophecy that is not clear? An essential element for the destructive "new" movements is CONFUSION. That's why these conflicting ideas "MUST be held in tension with each other." If you re-establish the power of God's word and get rid of the confusion, the "new" movements and those who push them would dry up and blow away. Know for sure that confusion is the necessary soil for the "Celebration" Movement.

Confusion is the same thing as darkness. According to Scripture, when people choose darkness, rather than light, it is because they are hiding something:

[color:#BF0000]John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

[John317]

What do you think of this quote from the 1911 edition of GC 590; also in 4 SP 408--

Quote:

It will be declared that men are offending God by the violation of Sunday Sabbath; that this sin has brought calamities which will not cease until Sunday observance shall be strictly enforced; and that those who present the claims of the fourth commandment, thus destroying reverence for Sunday, are troublers of the people, preventing their restoration to divine favor and temporal prosperity.

Notice that it says God's people will be presenting "the claims of the fourth commandment."

[Robert]

What do you think of this quote from the 1911 edition of GC 590; also in 4 SP 408--

Quote:

It will be declared that men are offending God by the violation of Sunday Sabbath; that this sin has brought calamities which will not cease until Sunday observance shall be strictly enforced; and that those who present the claims of the fourth commandment, thus destroying reverence for Sunday, are troublers of the people, preventing their restoration to divine favor and temporal prosperity.

Notice that it says God's people will be presenting "the claims of the fourth commandment."

"We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible." [EGW]

[Woody]

Good Point Rob.

[John317]

But ... I have to wonder if God broke the commandments when he ordered others to kill people and animals in the OT...

There's a very simple answer: God is love and His law is love. Therefore God cannot possibly break His own law, any more than He can do anything that is opposed to His own character. He cannot possibly will Himself out of existence, for instance.

What does this mean as far as killing people is concerned? It means that everything God did, whether we understand it or not, He has done out of love. Therefore His killing was not contrary to the commandments. In the same way when the devil and his followers are destroyed at the end, it will be required by love. Evil and death and sin must be ended-- this is required by love. Even the wicked will acknowledge this.

We have to trust God that He knows best. This is true faith.

I don't think it's faith that accuses God of being the devil for doing what His Word clearly says God does and will do again before He brings an end to sin, suffering, and death.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What do you think of this quote from the 1911 edition of GC 590; also in 4 SP 408--

Quote:

It will be declared that men are offending God by the violation of Sunday Sabbath; that this sin has brought calamities which will not cease until Sunday observance shall be strictly enforced; and that those who present the claims of the fourth commandment, thus destroying reverence for Sunday, are troublers of the people, preventing their restoration to divine favor and temporal prosperity.

Notice that it says God's people will be presenting "the claims of the fourth commandment."

"We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible." [EGW]

You often quote that but you ignore the other things that she wrote which show you are taking her words to signify something that she did not mean. She mentioned specific doctrines which she said are never to be changed. She never meant that her writings are part of those things we have to unlearn.

[Woody]

When looking at Ellen White it is important to remember 1 Cor 12:28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

That would place the prophets in second place next to teachers.

[John317]

And don't forget, too, that prophets come right after apostles and are next to them, which teachers are not.

Teachers have a talent that God gives them, for sure, but prophets are given messages directly from God in a way that teachers and ministers and elders are not. Teachers and ministers and elders are elected or selected by the church. God himself selects the prophet.

Also very important is the fact that we are all needed in the body of Christ, no matter how humble our part or position is. No one is more important than another when we think of it as Paul explained it.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What do you think of this quote from the 1911 edition of GC 590; also in 4 SP 408--

Quote:

It will be declared that men are offending God by the violation of Sunday Sabbath; that this sin has brought calamities which will not cease until Sunday observance shall be strictly enforced; and that those who present the claims of the fourth commandment, thus destroying reverence for Sunday, are troublers of the people, preventing their restoration to divine favor and temporal prosperity.

Notice that it says God's people will be presenting "the claims of the fourth commandment."

"We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible." [EGW]

Exactly what I thought.

[Robert]

What does this mean as far as killing people is concerned? It means that everything God did, whether we understand it or not, He has done out of love. Therefore His killing was not contrary to the commandments.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

"We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible." [EGW']

Exactly what I thought.

"We [EGW includes herself] have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light [truth] that is yet to come to us."

1] Define a glimmer: "A faint, unsteady light; feeble, scattered rays of light; also, a gleam."

2] Notice that "that is yet to come" is in the future tense!

How do I read her quote?

We have only faint, feeble, scattered rays of truth compared to that, which is yet to come to us.

Then why do many Adventists make Ellen White the end all be all of human existence? She plainly states she had limited light.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What does this mean as far as killing people is concerned? It means that everything God did, whether we understand it or not, He has done out of love. Therefore His killing was not contrary to the commandments.

God just gave me a vision, John....Seeing that your relatives are sinners, He said I should wipe them off the face of the earth. I too will do it out of love. You understand, right John? No hard feelings. I must purge the evil from among us.

And, during the great flood, all those toddlers...well...as the waters engulfed their little nostrils...well, I'm sure that they felt the love too.

Two VERY big differences that change everything:

1) God is not a fallen, sinful human being

2) GOD IS LOVE and all wise. He knows people's hearts and minds. You can totally trust Him.

Therefore to equate yourself with God is invalid and unsound reasoning.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17--I don't think it's faith that accuses God of being the devil for doing what His Word clearly says God does and will do again before He brings an end to sin, suffering, and death.

The wages of sin is death. Sin pays in death. It doesn't say God kills...it says sin kills. If you say God kills then God = sin.

As for "His word clearly says", well, it's not that clear at all. How so? You seem to ignore those "other statements" and conveniently at that.....

I've considered them.

Who made the law that makes sin kill?

Who resurrects all the lost at the end of the 1000 years? How does that happen?

[John317]

"We [EGW includes herself] have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light [truth] that is yet to come to us."

1] Define a glimmer: "A faint, unsteady light; feeble, scattered rays of light; also, a gleam."

2] Notice that "that is yet to come" is in the future tense!

How do I read her quote?

We have only faint, feeble, scattered rays of truth compared to that, which is yet to come to us.

Then why do many Adventists make Ellen White the end all be all of human existence? She plainly states she had limited light.

Two points here:

1) Your statement is also true of all the Bible prophets. What Bible prophet or apostle had unlimited light? Can you name one who had unlimited light?

2) Did she mean for us to believe that her writings are untrustworthy and to be discarded? Doesn't she also write about teachings which are not to be changed at all? Isn't one such teaching regarding the sanctuary in heaven?

We need to read everything on the subject, and not be satisfied by reading a little bit here and there. The same with the Bible. Take into consideration everything she says on the subject.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What do you think of this quote from the 1911 edition of GC 590; also in 4 SP 408--

Quote:

It will be declared that men are offending God by the violation of Sunday Sabbath; that this sin has brought calamities which will not cease until Sunday observance shall be strictly enforced; and that those who present the claims of the fourth commandment, thus destroying reverence for Sunday, are troublers of the people, preventing their restoration to divine favor and temporal prosperity.

Notice that it says God's people will be presenting "the claims of the fourth commandment."

"We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible." [EGW]

That can become the stock answer for anything we don't like, can't it?

Even though it is unrelated and taken out of context.

[John317]

....And, during the great flood, all those toddlers...well...as the waters engulfed their little nostrils...well, I'm sure that they felt the love too.....

Yes, the world is full of terrible things that happen. Think of all the millions of babies since the flood who have died worse deaths than drowning. Many of those children were put in the arms of a stone god made white hot so that the child fried to death.

That was done at the inspiration of the devil, who hates children or anything else God made.

Many children die in terrible ways at the hands of their own mothers and fathers.

The world is a dangerous place. It's all the result of separation from the life-giver and rebellion against His laws.

Why?

Couldn't God have made the universe in such a way that sin would not bring terrible results?

But God chose to make the universe this way-- so that sin results in painful, destructive consequences and finally in death. He could have done otherwise.

Why did God make it the way we find it, resulting in the deaths of millions and millions of innocent babies and children?

And why the flood where they died by the tens of millions in the way you describe?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

God just gave me a vision, John....Seeing that your relatives are sinners, He said I should wipe them off the face of the earth. I too will do it out of love. You understand, right John? No hard feelings. I must purge the evil from among us.

And, during the great flood, all those toddlers...well...as the waters engulfed their little nostrils...well, I'm sure that they felt the love too. [/quote']

to equate yourself with God is invalid and unsound reasoning.

Deut 19:19 Thus you shall purge the evil from among you. 20 “And the rest will hear and be afraid, and will never again do such an evil thing among you. 21 “Thus you shall not show pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Matt 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil