Did God Break the Commandments?

[Tallmark]

God did not destroy Sodom, Job's children, cause the flood, tell people to kill animals as a sacrifice, kill sabbath breakers, kill disobedient children, tell Abraham to kill his son, kill the firstborn of Egypt, or cause disease. God is love. Jesus is love. Satan did all those evil things, and God takes the rap for it. Those who live to see Jesus return will study these things out and come to the conclusion of love. I don't worship a death god, but the God of Life more Abundantly.

[John317]

God did not destroy Sodom, Job's children, cause the flood, tell people to kill animals as a sacrifice, kill sabbath breakers, kill disobedient children, tell Abraham to kill his son, kill the firstborn of Egypt, or cause disease. God is love. Jesus is love. Satan did all those evil things, and God takes the rap for it. Those who live to see Jesus return will study these things out and come to the conclusion of love. I don't worship a death god, but the God of Life more Abundantly.

Did God institute the sacrificial system in which the slaying of animals pointed forward to the death of the Messiah, the Son of God?

Please explain the flood, Gen. 6: 7, 13, 17; 7:4; 8:21. How did that occur?

What happened in Exodus 32: 27? Does the Bible give us the true words of God here or was Moses mistaken?

[rush4hire]

And, if God killed, killing you would also be good since you are as sinner, even if you aren't living just like the heathen.

That's just ridiculous. God didn't kill all His people because they where all sinners. If they sinned, they repented and brought a sin offering. They didn't harden their hearts and go around bragging about their sin and teaching everyone that's sin is really a good thing.

You charge God with being unjust for the stoning ordinance.

And now you are saying I want to stone people. That's just stupid.

[John317]

This whole thread demonstrates the complete failure of using the Bible as a basis for ethical behavior.

You do not believe Jesus Christ was ethical or that God the Father is ethical?

God the Father, of course, is not subject to the same rules that you and I are. We are humans; God IS Spirit. Since God is not human and since He made all moral laws, it seems obvious that He cannot be subject to the same laws that creatures are subject to.

Similarly, since God made all physical laws in the universe, He Himself is not subject and limited by the same laws that apply to humans. This is shown by the fact that the Bible portrays the angels as not being subject to the same laws of physics that humans are. Therefore it is reasonable to deduce that God is not subject to the same laws that angels are subject to.

If God is love-- and I believe the Bible testimony that He is-- then He cannot act contrary to love. The problem is not that God ever acts contrary to love but that we do not have enough understanding and knowledge to judge every act of God as to whether it is loving. That is why in some instances we simply have to trust Him on the basis of those things we do understand and know.

Some day we will see and know much more than we know today.

[cardw]

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If God is love-- and I believe the Bible testimony that He is-- then He cannot act contrary to love. The problem is not that God ever acts contrary to love but that we do not have enough understanding and knowledge to judge every act of God as to whether it is loving. That is why in some instances we simply have to trust Him on the basis of those things we do understand and know.

I don't buy the idea that God has an exception because of some "mysterious ways" clause.

Let's take the example already used of instructing the Jews to kill even babies. Now supposedly God is just and loving. What is just and loving about killing babies? What is just and loving about instructing people to participate in violence? Oh yes, the mysterious ways clause.

Anyone who simply thinks this through is not going to take this seriously. If someone stated that Zeus could rape a woman so that Hurcules could be born and still be considered just and loving we would never take that seriously and yet at one time it was.

What is more likely is that the human author of this passage about God telling them to kill everything and everyone didn't consider it to be wrong since it was in the national interest. There was no apparent moral problem for God to ask this because the morality of the writer was flawed.

This is the same reason we don't believe in the Roman or Greek god's. The God of the OT is as made up as the Greek and Roman gods. Its because we have more knowledge about how harmful violence is and WE have learned and reasoned out better ways.

Obviously we are not perfect, but neither is OT ethics.

[John317]

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If God is love-- and I believe the Bible testimony that He is-- then He cannot act contrary to love. The problem is not that God ever acts contrary to love but that we do not have enough understanding and knowledge to judge every act of God as to whether it is loving. That is why in some instances we simply have to trust Him on the basis of those things we do understand and know.

I don't buy the idea that God has an exception because of some "mysterious ways" clause.

..... What is more likely is that the human author of this passage about God telling them to kill everything and everyone didn't consider it to be wrong since it was in the national interest. There was no apparent moral problem for God to ask this because the morality of the writer was flawed.

This is the same reason we don't believe in the Roman or Greek god's. The God of the OT is as made up as the Greek and Roman gods. Its because we have more knowledge about how harmful violence is and WE have learned and reasoned out better ways....

I'm very familiar with this kind of reasoning. The problem for me is that your argument asks me to throw out the Bible as the Word of God, and I'm convinced after studying it closely and thinking about it that it's worthy of my trust.

Plainly the only way a person can conclude as you have is to totally reject the Bible as God's revelation. That would effectively put me right back where I was about 35 years ago. To do that I would have to deny everything I've learned since then.

I can see why you say what you do. It is, humanly speaking, "reasonable." But there is a great deal that your viewpoint does not take into account, and that makes all the difference in the world.

We will probably just have to agree to disagree.

I enjoy exchanges with people who have different views from mine. It makes life that much more interesting.

[rush4hire]

2] Fear/punishment doesn't work. IF it did the jails would be empty.

[cardw]

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Plainly the only way a person can conclude as you have is to totally reject the Bible as God's revelation. That would effectively put me right back where I was about 35 years ago. To do that I would have to deny everything I've learned since then.

Why do you have to throw out everything you have learned?

If what we are doing is working, it may not always be working for the reasons we originally thought. When you learn something new, you simply modify and refine your knowledge.

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I'm very familiar with this kind of reasoning. The problem for me is that your argument asks me to throw out the Bible as the Word of God, and I'm convinced after studying it closely and thinking about it that it's worthy of my trust.

Just because something has some truth doesn't mean that it is all true. It would be rather magical for a document written by humans in human language to be perfectly true. It is easily demonstrated that the Bible is not perfectly true.

As long as people continue to hold the Bible to some sort of magical truth, these silly ideas about it being ethical for God to ask people to kill babies will continue to be debated.

[Robert]

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Do you realize that God also gave authority to Nazi Germany? Not to kill the Jews, but within it's own government to deal with crime.

What Paul is saying is that God has given the problems of crime (killing, stealing, etc) over to the governing officials. It's their problem because Adam choose another leader - the god of this world. God's not running a theocracy....

It's not like God has great trust in our leaders and works directly thought them. If that was the case then Christ wouldn't have stated the following:

Matt 20:25 “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 “It is not so among you [Christ followers (for His kingdom is not of this world)], but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

So my point still stands. IF fear worked with those who are desperate...those on drugs...those eat up with their natures, then the jails would be empty because folks would be afraid to do wrong.

[Nightingale]

Ethics are based on morality which comes from God.

It is impossible for God to break the 10 commandments as they are nothing more than a transcript of His character which does not and will not change.

If you are speaking of "magic" as a supernatural power, the Bible could be consisdered magical, but the word "magical" usually refers to some pretended art. This would include sorcery. I'm not sure what you mean that "It is easily demonstrated that the Bible is not perfectly true." Either it is God's word and therefore true, or it is a pack of lies.

"God's love has been expressed in His justice no less than in His mercy. Justice is the foundation of His throne, and the fruit of His Love". DA762

"It is the glory of God to be merciful, full of forbearance, kindness, goodness, and truth. but the justice shown in punishing the sinner is as verily the glory of the Lord as is the manifestation of His mercy." LED 240

Children inherit the characteristics and to some extent the character of their parents.

If these children and babies had been allowed to grow up they would propetuate their parents sins and cause even more suffering and death. It was the mercy of God that thousands should suffer, to prevent the necessity of visiting judgements upon millions. In order to save the many, He must punish the few.

[cardw]

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Ethics are based on morality which comes from God.

This is a myth. Ethics such as the condemnation of slavery and women's rights did not come from the Bible because the Bible clearly sees women as second class citizens and it never condemns slavery.

Most ethics can be based on reason with the main goal being to reduce suffering. There is no magical moral high ground in the Bible.

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Either it is God's word and therefore true, or it is a pack of lies.

Nothing is perfectly true. That's why we don't have a universal theory in physics. And yet we don't call physics a pack lies just because it approximates. The writers of the Bible, for the most part, were not intending to lie. They do demonstrate some ignorance, but that is far different than lying. And there is a fair amount of magical thinking, because of that ignorance, within the Bible.

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Children inherit the characteristics and to some extent the character of their parents.

If these children and babies had been allowed to grow up they would propetuate their parents sins and cause even more suffering and death. It was the mercy of God that thousands should suffer, to prevent the necessity of visiting judgements upon millions. In order to save the many, He must punish the few.

This is a very dangerous form of ethical belief. It creates a picture of a being who is creating millions of people simply to be killed and live a life of suffering and this being doesn't just take life away, but instructs other beings to use violence to kill children and babies who are condemned without even a trial. And what of the Israelites? They don't demonstrate any less evil behavior than their counter parts. What is far more likely is that the Bible is simply a national justification of violence and cruelty using the claim that God told them to do it. Radical Islam is doing the same thing today.

It is because Christians hold these types of beliefs that I believe Christianity is a harmful belief system. Fortunately it has been tempered by the the enlightenment and has been held in check by more rational minds and by a modern democratic society.

This same justification was made by Augustine in his work on a just war. This led directly to the crusades and the inquisition. There has been a lot of cruelty in this world because many Christians have been so intent on making the Bible the word of God.

[John317]

Quote:

Ethics are based on morality which comes from God.

This is a myth. Ethics such as the condemnation of slavery and women's rights did not come from the Bible because the Bible clearly sees women as second class citizens and it never condemns slavery.

Most ethics can be based on reason with the main goal being to reduce suffering. There is no magical moral high ground in the Bible.

When we consider the ancient world of which the Bible was a part, and out of which it came, it is easy to see its remarkable and positive influence. There is no doubt that the Bible helped alleviate the conditions of women. Compare the situation of women in ancient Greece, for instance. Look at how Jesus treats women! He raised them up.

Proof of this is to compare women in Christian countries and treatment of women in non-Christian countries, such as India, Pakistan, etc.

As for slavery, it was the Bible's influence that got the churches involved in the abolitionary movement and then later was a primary force behind the civil rights movement. Its commands to love even your enemy has a powerful influence. I believe that it kept the US from experiencing a lot of violence during the 1960s. Because of the influence of the churches, most backs decided to go the way of peaceful protests rather than the way of bullet, which is how Malcolm X wanted to take America.

[cardw]

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When we consider the ancient world of which the Bible was a part, and out of which it came, it is easy to see its remarkable and positive influence. There is no doubt that the Bible helped alleviate the conditions of women. Compare the situation of women in ancient Greece, for instance.

This is a myth as well.

DNA evidence on the role of Greek women

Women of Sparta

There are certainly examples of the mistreatment of women in Greek society, but this was from prejudice, not formal ignorance like we have with the Bible. And there was a forum for debate around ideas so that these roles could shift. Today the role of women in Greek society is locked down by Christianity in the form of the Greek Orthodox Church. It has only been modernization that has changed the role of women in Greek society today.

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Proof of this is to compare women in Christian countries and treatment of women in non-Christian countries, such as India, Pakistan, etc.

Well it depends which time period you are talking about. I think women were faring rather better in the middle east than the witches being burned in Christian Europe.

Again, it has been the influence of modernization within Christian Europe that developed the freedoms we have today. Democracy and the vehicles through which women gained their rights is based on secular philosophy. When you study the thought leaders in France and in America during the early formation of American Democracy, you will find a rejection of religion as the basis of rights and the embrace of reason and observation.

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As for slavery, it was the Bible's influence that got the churches involved in the abolitionary movement and then later was a primary force behind the civil rights movement. Its commands to love even your enemy has a powerful influence. I believe that it kept the US from experiencing a lot of violence during the 1960s. Because of the influence of the churches, most backs decided to go the way of peaceful protests rather than the way of bullet, which is how Malcolm X wanted to take America.

Well, in America it was and is difficult for anyone who holds a different belief than Christianity to have a voice. Coming through churches doesn't mean its because the Bible is against slavery or that person is a Christian. The church, in this country, is far closer to a political entity than a spiritual one. There were churches who opposed the freeing of American Black slaves based on the Bible and technically they were more Biblical.

Quakers were the main "Christian" influence in the movement to free the slaves and they used the philosophy of Jesus. To do this they had to pick and choose from the Bible for the Bible, as a whole, clearly supports slavery.