Christ's-Human-Nature

[oldsailor29]

I don't believe Jesus had to take on the human nature of the sinner He came to save. I've heard people say that if He didn't take on our nature, then He couldn't save us. I think that is a bunch of baloney. Nobody can say Jesus has to follow this rule or that rule. Nobody knows how salvation works anyway. We don't need to know. All we need is faith.

[Robert]

I don't believe Jesus had to take on the human nature of the sinner He came to save.

The law of God clearly prohibits an innocent man dying for the guilty — “the soul that sins, it must die” [Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:1-20]

In other words, how can God justify sinners on the basis of what Christ did and still maintain His integrity to His own law which condemns us to death?

[Tammy]

I believe that Jesus came here to show us that a human connected with God, can live a perfect life. He came to this earth connected with God, we on the other hand, are not born into this world, connected with God. We must all be "born again"...He was already born again. We have to be careful that we do not bring Him down to the level of the unconverted...the point is for us to come UP to Him. He was born into this world with the advantage that He was already connected with God...BUT, He offers to give us the SAME advantage! So, there is NO excuse for us...we too, can live without sin.

[oldsailor29]

Yes, Jesus did demonstrate the spirit filled life. And I think He did a lot more. I think most folks tend to view Jesus and God separately. Jesus said "I and my father are one." The faith of Christians is that Jesus is God in the flesh. Other than for the purpose of explaining the depth of His love, Like a father for a son, I think we need to say God Himself came, to redeem us and bring us salvation. He had to appear to be a regular baby in order to conceal His true identity. Regular sperm and egg fertilization has nothing to do with Jesus. People didn't know He was God in the flesh. Lots of people still do not know who Jesus is, the one infinite God who stands outside of time and space, and creates time and space and worlds, and functions both inside and outside of time and space, in finite realms like our world, and in His infinite realm. And just like his life, with no beginning and no end, inside and outside of time and space, His love also extends beyond that which we can fathom.

One of Satan's claims is that allowing the sinner to live, defeats justice. Satan insists that mercy nullifies justice and God's law. This is his last great deception. But I think it is more complex than we can understand, which is why some of Jesus' statements about Himself are confusing to us. God keeps justice and mercy together by paying the price for all sin Himself. Satan has not accepted God's mercy. It doesn't agree with Satan's reasoning. He is the first to say, "If it does not work my way, then I don't want anything to do with it." He doesn't understand God. And I have seen a lot of people say the same or something similar. God cannot be explained. Adam didn't understand God, and nobody else has ever understood God either. While it is exhilarating to learn more about God through our studies, no one has ever written any where near a full explanation of God.

The most relevant information to God's infinite existence is found in the teachings of Jesus. God came in the flesh and walked on the beach and talked to the people. His words were preserved and translated into our language, and millions of copies are printed in red letters today and are easily available for us to read. Those teachings contain all the elements of the ancient suzerainty covenants, and much more. His teachings are more than we need.

Want to lift Him up? Then read His teachings. Drink His blood and eat His flesh. Make His teachings a part of you. When you open your mouth, quote Jesus. If you don't, read what He said again and again until you are full and overflowing with His truth and wisdom, and you will also find His love.

[TreeOfLife]

>>There is no sin extant in sperm meeting ovum.<<

Writ takes issue with your observation; to wit,

Quote:

Quote:jasd

(...in sin did my mother conceive me. Ps 51:5)

>>Not then. Not now.<<

Not true.

>>Every infant is delivered as a free and sinless being, albeit with more or less of a handicap due to the bonds introduced by its parents and all our ancestors.<<

Without an explanatory, the above appears self-contradictory. Writ informs us that the child is conceived in sin – that would be, imho, imputed sin – attributable to the particular cause and responsibility of our initial parents. We do not understand the whys and wherefores; however,

it bespeaks an adherence to formal articles agreed upon by adversarial parties... beyond the apprehension of our senses.

So, unless the ‘subject’ of the text above was conceived unlawfully, we can only read it as it reads, that is, sin is part and parcel of conception as it pertains to mankind…

[guibox]

The law of God clearly prohibits an innocent man dying for the guilty — “the soul that sins, it must die” [Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:1-20] In other words, how can God justify sinners on the basis of what Christ did and still maintain His integrity to His own law which condemns us to death?

This is the glorious gospel of grace. Christ 'became sin who knew no sin'. When Christ took on the sin as the sacrificial lamb did (it committed no sins, it was without spot or blemish, sins were transferred on to it), He fell under the condemnation of the law. He fulfilled the just requirements of the law and put an end to the victory of sin and death once and for all.

Christ did not die as an innocent person for the guilty. He became sin. He took our sins upon Himself, our debt (cheirographon) and nailed it to the cross (Colossians 2:13) thus bringing complete forgiveness (vs 12) and removing the condemnation and judgment of evil powers (vs 15)

For those who believe that Jesus was 'just like us', I would like you to address my previous post on page 2 I believe. Nobody has commented on what I have put forth there.

[Robert]

I believe that Jesus came here to show us that a human connected with God, can live a perfect life.

So, that's the primary reason for the incarnation? Jesus, as God, united Himself with our humanity under the curse so that we can live a perfect life?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The law of God clearly prohibits an innocent man dying for the guilty — “the soul that sins, it must die” [Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:1-20] In other words, how can God justify sinners on the basis of what Christ did and still maintain His integrity to His own law which condemns us to death?

He took our sins upon Himself

How?

[Robert]

What is the context of Psalm 51:5? Isn’t it David’s confession re his sin with the wife of Uriah? Why all of a sudden is David’s mother brought into the picture? Is David trying to place the blame for his sin on her? I for one don’t think so. Perhaps, as so often, this too is in the eyes of the beholder? Beginning with the translators…

Let me help:

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Not only was the infant David consider sinful at birth, the Bible goes back one more step: Sinful by conception.

How? Because the moment the sperm & the egg come together those cells contain in them a bent-towards-self. Hence David was conceived in "iniquity".

The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. Just as Davids cells had in them his sex (male/female) they also contained his "bent-towards-self" (the selfish gene, if you will).

As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

How did David get here? By His mom. What does the Bible say about those "born of a woman"?

How then can a man be righteous before God? How can one born of woman be pure? [Job 25:3]

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law....

Note the minute Jesus, as one of us, was born he came under the curse of the law. How? He took upon Himself our humanity from Mary's womb.

There is one difference. Jesus, as the son of man, was born spiritually alive. That means He was born with the Holy Spirit in him. So from birth He never sinned, yet because he assumed our humanity and its bent-towards-self (iniquity) that life came under the condemnation of the law. That's because not only does the law require perfect obedience, but it also requires a sinless humanity (i.e., a glorified body with out the sin nature). The very fact that Christ assumed our humanity indwelt with iniquity means that Christ came under the curse the moment that he was conceived.

For 33 years Christ lived a perfect life in our fallen humanity. This answered the positive demands of God's law. And on the cross Christ tasted the 2nd death - i.e., He met the justice of the law. At the resurrection Jesus, as God, was raised with a glorified humanity free from indwelling iniquity. He left iniquity in the grave and hence he left mortality in the grave.

Now, if you don't believe we are born spiritually bent towards ourselves then I have a question for you:

Why are infants selfish, much less why are we selfish?

If you give one a toy and the other nothing, they will end up fighting over that toy. Why? Selfishness...self-love...self-interest...self-seeking...

They were born bent-towards-self, the very opposite of God's love, agape!

Here's some more proof:

Watch this video

This one too

[oldsailor29]

Bottom line:

1. For Jesus to be born with a sinful nature means that He was condemned as we are, hence means that He could not be our Savior for He would need one too. Christ came to abolish death in our sinful nature and save us from that death.

2. The sacrifical system shows that a lamb 'without spot or blemish' had to be sacrificed. Having a sinful nature means that Christ was not the perfect lamb. He would have had a spot and blemish in his sinful nature.

3. Christ was born of a virgin. We are not.This counts for something.

4. Christ retained His divinity. He was also fully God. We are not.

In light of numbers 3 and 4, we cannot make Christ 'just like us'He was not 'like us'. He was unique. At the very least, Christ would be in a third category all on His own.

5. People who so desperately want to bring Christ down to our sinful level feel the need to do so to support the erroneous doctrine of 'sinless perfection' manifested in 'last generational theology. Christ was not merely 'our example' He was our substitute, and according to the law, had to be perfect. How that was obtained (by having a sinless spiritual nature) is not our concern and shouldn't be our worry. The fact is, is that any advantage Christ had was for our benefit.

Yes. I like this post. Prelapsarian - human nature before the fall. fully human and fully divine. reality is the oneness of opposites. plus, as you said, totally unique nature, in a category unlike any other.

The theory that Jesus had to take on the nature of the sinner in order to save the sinner is baloney. If that were true, Jesus would have had to take on the nature of Satan.

Nope. His human nature was like Adam before the fall.

[Robert]

The theory that Jesus had to take on the nature of the sinner in order to save the sinner is baloney.

Nope. His human nature was like Adam before the fall.

Sorry, but you teach an unethical, false gospel. Jesus didn't come to save the righteous, but sinners. That's a quote. Adam, before the fall, was sinless. His nature was in harmony with agape. At the fall Adam became bent-towards-self. He became self-consumed, he became self-centered, he became selfish...loving self. In other words after the fall everything Adam did, outside God, was for selfish motivations.

In order to save us from the curse of the law [the 2nd death, the wages of iniquity], Christ had to assume us in our fallen condition. Again, He didn't come to save the righteous....

That's why the Bible says,

Rom 6:6 our old man [our fallen life] was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with....

Rom 7:4 you [and you are a sinner] also died to the law [it demanded your death] in the body of Christ

Hence, "when One died, all died"

You look that last one up....

Rob

[Robert]

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law [under it's curse], 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Job says what is born of a woman is sinful...it is self-centered by nature. Paul tells us to be under law means to stand condemned because not only are outwards sins transgression, but the fact you have a sinful nature condemns you also.

You see SDA are wrong when they say Christ "had" a sinful nature. Christ is God. He is deity, but at the incarnation "a body was made for him". That body is our fallen humanity, not His. He assumed us in order to legally redeem us. So it wasn't His nature, it was ours. He became sin, who as God knew no sin.

Rob

[olger]

ok

[Robert]

at the incarnation "a body was made for him". That body is our fallen humanity, not His. Rob

Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He [Jesus as God] came into the world, He [Jesus] said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body [from Mary's womb] You [God the Father] have prepared for Me [Jesus as God].

Here's the thing, if you say that Christ assuming our fallen life makes His Deity as sinner, then the Holy Spirit, who resides in the believer becomes a sinner.

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

The theory that Jesus had to take on the nature of the sinner in order to save the sinner is baloney.

Nope. His human nature was like Adam before the fall.

Sorry, but you teach an unethical, false gospel. Jesus didn't come to save the righteous, but sinners. That's a quote.

In order to save us from the curse of the law [the 2nd death, the wages of iniquity], Christ had to assume us in our fallen condition. Again, He didn't come to save the righteous....

Where are any righteous? None on this earth but one. I think God is the one who sets the rules, not us. The way of salvation is not dictated by any beside God. Christ didn't have to assume anything in order to save us sinners, especially not a sinful nature. As I said before, if that were true, then Jesus would have to assume the nature of the most fallen himself. And I know that didn't happen.

Jesus said blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven, and it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a righteous man to enter heaven. But with God, anything is possible.

[Robert]

Where are any righteous? None on this earth but one.

[oldsailor29]

God could do away with the law if He so desired. He created the law and is not bound by any law. He set it up, and He can set it down. In order to pay the price for all sin, the creator of all the sinners had to pay. The wages of sin is death. He died. It is as simple as that. No need to complicate things with rules about what His nature had to be.

Satan said we couldn't keep God's law. Jesus said we could. I believe Jesus.

Satan said God is a tyrant. John said God is love. I believe John.

Satan said there must be justice and all sinners must die. Jesus said I will have mercy and not sacrifice. I believe Jesus.

Satan said mercy abrogates the law. Ellen White said justice and mercy became one at the cross. I believe Ellen White.

Did Jesus have human nature like Adam before the fall or after the fall? I think the correct answer is yes, and also Jesus had his divine nature. He was unique. There has never been anyone like Him and there never will be. Satan said all these things will be yours if you will fall down and worship me. Jesus basically replied, get behind me and worship my backside. I think Satan had to comply.

Jesus is the best revelation we have of the one infinite God. To say He has to do this or that in order to get the desired result indicates a perception of a god which is too small.

[aldona]

Quote:

Jesus said blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven, and it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a righteous man to enter heaven.

Maybe I'm confused, but in my Bible it says "rich", not "righteous". Please enlighten me.

aldona

[Robert]

God could do away with the law if He so desired.

[oldsailor29]

Quote:

Jesus said blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven, and it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a righteous man to enter heaven.

Maybe I'm confused, but in my Bible it says "rich", not "righteous". Please enlighten me.

aldona

The disciples who were with Jesus at the time understood him to mean rich in spirit or righteous, for their response was, "Who then can be saved?"

[oldsailor29]

He can not go against His own law for it is who God is...agape.

[Neville Peter]

I have no problem with psalm 51:5. David is just simply saying that His mother and his father were sinners. Both Adam and Eve were sinners as well and here we are. When God promised Eve that the seed of the woman would crush the head of the surpant who was he refering to? Just because there were no sperm in the conseption of Christ doesn't take away from the fact that Mary was fully human and a sinner like all of us. I hope I'm not understanding you to say that she was partly divine. If that is what you're saying then there is not much left to talk about. christ came to do in the flesh what we could not do with out his grace. when Christ won the victory over sin, he gave his victory to us so that by the faith of Christ operating in our lives we can have the same victory. Christ obviously was not completely like us because he never sinned, but that is the only difference between his humanity and ours. Isn't that the reason why Jesus himself said that greater works you shall do and that he could do nothing with out the father. If he had a nature that he did not have to conquer,then why would he even need the father? Why would he even pray? What use would there be for the spirit? In like manner we can do nothing with out his power. Why was christ even tempted if there wasn't a possibility that he could sin? Why would Satan tempt Jesus in the same eria that Adam fell? How is it that Jesus overcame Satan in the same way we must by the written word? Those who believe that Jesus took on the sinful nature of Adam so that he could gain the victory for us are not pulling him down to our level. It is just an afermation of his love and his power to take a sinner and turn him or her in to a saint. The reason for the spotless lamb was because Jesus never sinned not that he had an unfallen nature. Ezekiel is very clear that the son will not die for the sin of the Father. So Jesus was like all babies born with out sin and since he commited no sin he is the spotless lamb of God. My wife is not one to debate and being a former Catholic, I wondered what she thought about these things. So after writing my first post on this subject, I asked her. After thinking for a while she presented some of the same arguments I am presenting to you right now. She is not well versed in Theology or anything like that. She is just a simple believer who trusts her savior to complete what he started in her.

[TreeOfLife]

”Born of a Woman...”

- What do those Words Mean?

Originally Posted By: TreeOfLife

What is the context of Psalm 51:5? Isn’t it David’s confession re his sin with the wife of Uriah? Why all of a sudden is David’s mother brought into the picture? Is David trying to place the blame for his sin on her? I for one don’t think so. Perhaps, as so often, this too is in the eyes of the beholder? Beginning with the translators…

Let me help:

.

.

.

What does the Bible say about those "born of a woman"?

How then can a man be righteous before God? How can one born of woman be pure? [Job 25:3]

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law....

Note the minute Jesus, as one of us, was born he came under the curse of the law. How? He took upon Himself our humanity from Mary's womb…

Dear Robert,

For the details of my response to you please accept this link unto another post of mine…

Shalom,

Tree of Life©

[Robert]

Love is love is love is love.

I cannot say what God can or cannot do. My God is bigger than that.

You sure have no problem in saying He didn't have to assume our humanity indwelt with sin....Funny, huh?

No, love cannot sin....Otherwise God is a hypocrite and I, for one, will not follow such....

Rob

[Robert]

So Jesus was like all babies born with out sin and since he committed no sin he is the spotless lamb of God

Babies are self-centered....They care about no one expect themselves and they do not hide it. They were conceived, as David states, in iniquity:

The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2].