Christ's-Human-Nature

[BobRyan]

Bob, I tried to send you a PM, but this message popped up:

"BobRyan is over their Private Topic limit."

I have no idea what that means Tammy --

Maybe that is the board's way of telling me to get out of the "free column" and pay the sign up fee.

I just may do that.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: Tammy

Bob, I tried to send you a PM, but this message popped up:

"BobRyan is over their Private Topic limit."

I have no idea what that means Tammy --

Maybe that is the board's way of telling me to get out of the "free column" and pay the sign up fee.

I just may do that.

in Christ,

Bob

LOL Yes, it just might be telling you that! I think the quota of PMs allowed without a subscription is 10. With a subscription that goes way up to 500! The benefits are listed in the right column near the bottom.

For less than the price of a magazine per month, you can help Clubadventist with its expenses. I think it's definitely worth it!

[Gail]

BTW- I've really been enjoying Bob's contributions here

[guibox]

Sorry Bob, LGT is not biblical and is not really supported by EGW despite her perfectionist tendencies in her early writings.

LGT puts the salvation process solely on us. Christ says, 'Lo I am with you always, even unto the end of the earth', LGT says 'You will be without a mediator and must stand on your own merits'. Christ says 'If you sin you have an advocate with the Father', LGT says, 'The last generation cannot sin either in thought or action or they will be lost as they have no Mediator'

This is salvation by works at the highest level and makes the saving grace of God a mockery. Most of our biblical scholars worth their salt deny this doctrine and many in previous generations have too (Heppenstall, Froom,LaRondelle).

As for the nature of Christ, I suggest everyone read this paper from the Biblical Research Institute. It lays it out quite clearly why Christ could not have a fallen nature.

Go here:

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents.htm#theology

and scroll down to this PDF file:

"What Human Nature Did Jesus Take? Unfallen"

[oldsailor29]

the problem most people have when discussing human nature is a failure to discriminate between nature and character. We will have the fallen nature until Jesus comes again and changes us. Our characters however will change. There are people in the world now who would rather die than commit a wrong act. That is perfection of character. Before the end of time everyone will have developed their characters to one extreme or the other. Everyone will either rather die than commit a wrong act, or be just the opposite, depending on whom they choose to serve. There will be no one who has not made their final decision. We will all either be like Jesus or Satan, with no middle ground. This is character development.

Human nature is another topic. It will change from sinful when God changes it.

[guibox]

Christ had to be the sinless, spotless sacrificial lamb that was required. Absolutely! But He wasn’t born that way. E. G. White makes it clear that Jesus became the second Adam. Not like the Adam before sin, but the second Adam after sin. He developed a perfect character

[guibox]

Our characters however will change. There are people in the world now who would rather die than commit a wrong act. That is perfection of character. Before the end of time everyone will have developed their characters to one extreme or the other. Everyone will either rather die than commit a wrong act, or be just the opposite, depending on whom they choose to serve.

Our very nature dictates our thoughts and actions, most of the time without us even desiring it. That is what 'propensities to sin' are. Christ didn't have these. To say 'Christ did it so, so can we' is faulty logic.

Sure people may not kill someone and would rather die than curse God. But what about lust? What about an unkind word to someone? What about watching,eating, or drinking something you shouldn't? Sin is sin. If you think that simply because it is the last generation that some sort of advantage has been acquired over these sins that we haven't done now, you are sorely mistaken.

If character perfection is supposed to be so high on the last generation scale of saving oneself, then, it can be done now and should have been done in the past. Are you there yet? What happens if you die tomorrow? Do you know of any saints passed on who have achieved character perfection? I know of many Christians who have died that struggled with sins and failings until the end of their lives...70+ years. They will be in heaven. Not sure why they were still struggling. With all their lifetime, they should have achieved sinless perfection by then.

Reducing sin to simply character and acts, and not a sinful nature that influences that character is a superficial understanding of sin.

[Guest WilloMar]

It is because Jesus inherited our sinful nature, and gained the victory over it, that enables us to gain the victory through Him. Remember, Mrs. White said that Jesus used no power that is not readily available to us. He became sin, but He never sinned. Mrs. White also said we should, “hold the attention of the people by presenting before them the truth as it is in Jesus. Keep before them the cross of Calvary. What called for the death of Christ? The transgression of the law.” Ev. 150 (See DA 25, 26.) Because of our finite minds, this is extremely difficult to comprehend. However, we’ll have all of eternity to try to figure it out.

Going back to the animal sacrifices for sin.... That was a discussing invention of Satan: Read Jer. 7:22, 23; Isa. 1:11-17, 66:3, 4; Ps.51:16, 17, 40:6; Pro. 15:8; 1 Sam. 15:22 and Hos. 6:6. Imagine, the Creator of heaven and earth, and all that is in them ---- AN ANIMAL! If Satan had his complete way, he would have had Israel sacrifice snakes, bats and pigs.

Prepare to welcome Jesus!

[Robert]

Human nature is another topic. It will change from sinful when God changes it.

No! No change in human nature....Human nature dies forever....The dead will leave it in the grave....The living will be changed....The old vanishes...it dies....Our human nature is not improved upon.

Rob

[BobRyan]

Sorry Bob, LGT is not biblical and is not really supported by EGW despite her perfectionist tendencies in her early writings.

LGT puts the salvation process solely on us. Christ says, 'Lo I am with you always, even unto the end of the earth', LGT says 'You will be without a mediator and must stand on your own merits'. Christ says 'If you sin you have an advocate with the Father', LGT says, 'The last generation cannot sin either in thought or action or they will be lost as they have no Mediator'

This is salvation by works at the highest level and makes the saving grace of God a mockery. Most of our biblical scholars worth their salt deny this doctrine and many in previous generations have too (Heppenstall, Froom,LaRondelle).

As for the nature of Christ, I suggest everyone read this paper from the Biblical Research Institute. It lays it out quite clearly why Christ could not have a fallen nature.

Go here:

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents.htm#theology

and scroll down to this PDF file:

"What Human Nature Did Jesus Take? Unfallen"

[BobRyan]

Then in looking at the sinless option for the nature of Christ the BRI opens with this

This is in their "What Human Nature Did Jesus Take? Unfallen" Article.

Quote:

Seventh-day Adventist theology presents two alternative views concerning the human nature of Jesus Christ.

1. Christ had a sinful human nature because He had a sinful mother like the rest of us,

2. or He had a sinless human nature because, unlike the rest of us, He had God for His Father.1

The first view stresses His identity with man; the second focuses on His uniqueness as man.

3. Some try to bridge the two by saying Jesus had a sinful physical nature but His human birth was like our new birth—born of the Spirit. They say that Jesus began in Bethlehem, where we begin when born again.

4. Others suggest that the parallel breaks down under investigation. They believe that Jesus was both sinful and sinless in human nature, sinful only in that He took our "sin weakened physical" nature but sinless in that He never became sin in birth.

Not only did he not "become" sin in birth - He did not acquire any moral depravity - any inclination to sin by his birth. His very nature recoiled against sin!

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/humannaturechristunfallen.pdf

Option 4 is the one I have been talking about. Fallen physical nature -- sinless pre-fall spiritual nature. So that means a SinLESS human nature but yet in the FALLEN physical nature of mankind at the time of His birth.

[BobRyan]

Notice each detail in the "starting condition" at birth being described in the quotes below.

That person who starts that way - needs the Gospel benefits provided by Christ. That infant does not need to confess anything or repent of anything -- but they need "a new nature". If that infant dies - they go to heaven at the resurrection and the new nature is provided them.

Christ did not need a new moral nature.

Quote:

The first (Adam) was created a pure, sinless being, without the taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of god. he could

fall and he did fall through transgressing. because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience (sin)).

5BC 1128 (7a BC 447).

Christ was sinless "Not possessing the passions of our human, fallen

nature" 2T509

Christ is our "brother in our infirmities but not in possessing like passions" 2T202

GC 467

It is the work of conversion and sanctification to reconcile men to God by bringing them into accord with the principles of His law. In the beginning, man was created in the image of God. He was in perfect harmony with the nature and the law of God; the principles of righteousness were written upon his heart. But sin alienated him from his Maker. He no longer reflected the divine image. His heart was at war with the principles of God's law. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7. But "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son," that man might be reconciled to God. Through the merits of Christ he can be restored to harmony with his Maker. His heart must be renewed by divine grace; he must have a new life from above. This change is the new birth, without which, says Jesus, "he cannot see the kingdom of God."

DA 172

Jesus continued: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." By nature the heart is evil, and "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4. No human invention can find a remedy for the sinning soul. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." Rom. 8:7; Matt. 15:19. The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit.

Prior to the fall Adam has this

1. Sinless nature that recoils against sin. Created in perfect harmony with the Law of God.

2. Strong force of the will. Strength of characterStrong ability to choose right and consistently maintain that course.

3. Many times our own physical ability.

AFTER the fall - and at the point of the birth of Christ mankind had none of the above.

So when Christ came He had

1. Sinless prefall nature of Adam

2. Weakened force of the will - equal to that of his peers. Character not yet formed.

3. weakened physical nature equal to that of his peers.

in Christ,

Bob

[Neville Peter]

Sounds good, but Where is the bible text that supports that? Did not the Scribes and Faracies in Jesus's day add more to God's word thus missing the whole point? What about my other question? Is it a sin for a baby to Cry?

[Neville Peter]

You have given me some food for thought. I can't say that I totally see it your way, but thanks much for the feed back. Are you then saying that having a fallen nature is the same as sinning? I am not so sure about that. If we want salvation, we have to be born of the spirit. We have to be born again. Jesus was born born again. because he was born of the spirit and also of a woman. It would then seem to me that this was also another big difference between Christ's humanity and ours.

In thinking about the perfect lamb required for a sacrifice, it seems to me that the people living in old testament times brought a spotless lamb, because the spotless lamb was a shadow of the spotless Jesus. And even with that spotless lamb many of them still mist it because they did not have faith in the spotless lamb of God promised to us by God back in Genesis.

[Lutz13]

Sounds good, but Where is the bible text that supports that? Did not the Scribes and Faracies in Jesus's day add more to God's word thus missing the whole point? What about my other question? Is it a sin for a baby to Cry?

"And thou shalt love the Lord thy God will all they heart, and with all they soul, and with all they mind, and with all thy strength, this is the first commandment"(Mark 12:30) The first commandment is to love God with everything we have. Which is also summed up in the first four commandments. To do otherwise is being selfish.

"And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."(Mark 12:31) Since we are born in love with our selves. We should take that self love and use it towards our neighbors instead. To do otherwise is being selfish. "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness."(1 John 3:4)

Just curious. Why would you think it a sin for a baby to cry?

[Neville Peter]

I wasn't saying that its a sin for a baby to cry. I was responding to an earlyer post where someone was saying that babies are selfish and being so they are not with out sin. I was just pointing out that babies cry because some how they learn that when they cry there needs are met.

I have to respectfully disagree with your take on the texts you quoted. I still think you are reading more in to them. Loving the Lord with all your heart and mind and strength is doing all he commands. This is hwy Jesus said If you love me keep my commandments. (John 14:15) Too love your nabour as yourself is to Do unto others as you would have them do on to you. For this is the law and the profits.

[Tammy]

Originally Posted By: Tammy

Bob, I tried to send you a PM, but this message popped up:

"BobRyan is over their Private Topic limit."

I have no idea what that means Tammy --

Maybe that is the board's way of telling me to get out of the "free column" and pay the sign up fee.

I just may do that.

in Christ,

Bob

Well, what I was going to say Bob, is that my husband wrote a book on this subject, and I'd love to send you a copy (for free). So far, from what I can see, we are on the same page. Would you please email me your address (my email is tammy_roesch@yahoo.com or call me at 440-224-2227. Anyone else who would like a FREE copy of the book, I'd be happy to send it, just let me know. I believe that this subject couldn't be more important, for we are told that Jesus is waiting until He has a people who perfectly reflect His character to come back. I believe that is why He has not come yet...the world is ready...it is His people who are not. Satan knows that all he has to keep doing is to get people to hold a wrong understanding of the character of Christ, and he can then delay His coming for years. I hope to hear from you all!

[BobRyan]

You have given me some food for thought. I can't say that I totally see it your way, but thanks much for the feed back. Are you then saying that having a fallen nature is the same as sinning? I am not so sure about that.

[guibox]

I believe that this subject couldn't be more important, for we are told that Jesus is waiting until He has a people who perfectly reflect His character to come back. I believe that is why He has not come yet...the world is ready...it is His people who are not

Tammy, where exactly is the biblical basis for this belief? Where in the world does it say that WE determine when Christ comes? Don't you think that is a little egotistical?

Have you not thought of the logistics of this belief?

How and when exactly, are ALL God's people going to simultaneously achieve this status so Christ can come? Do you really think Christ is looking at His watch while the millions of millions of his followers are trying hard to get their act together all at the same time so He is allowed to come to the earth??

This type of philosophy is NOT biblical and is built from assumption to assumption. It sounds like some of the crazy views Mormons have that cannot be supported by the Bible. Why are we so accusatory of other wayward beliefs of other faiths when we put forth this (along with last generation theology) and pander it as salvation-based truth??

[Lutz13]

Tammy, where exactly is the biblical basis for this belief? Where in the world does it say that WE determine when Christ comes? Don't you think that is a little egotistical?

Have you not thought of the logistics of this belief?

How and when exactly, are ALL God's people going to simultaneously achieve this status so Christ can come? Do you really think Christ is looking at His watch while the millions of millions of his followers are trying hard to get their act together all at the same time so He is allowed to come to the earth??

This type of philosophy is NOT biblical and is built from assumption to assumption. It sounds like some of the crazy views Mormons have that cannot be supported by the Bible. Why are we so accusatory of other wayward beliefs of other faiths when we put forth this (along with last generation theology) and pander it as salvation-based truth??

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."(2 Peter 3:9) Peter is referring to the question. Where is He and why hasn't He came yet?

[BobRyan]

God tells us what is going on through His prophets.

Amons 3:7 - surely the Lord Does nothing except He reveals it to His servants the prophets.

So Noah told people about the flood and the boat that Adam did not tell them about.

So John told the people about the Holy Spirit descending on the Messiah as a dove - that the scriptures never told them about.

So Ellen White told us about the failure of God's people in the 1800's causing a "delay" that should not be charged to God's account. -- That the scriptures never told us about.

Scripture tells us about doctrine and also the broad brush strokes of history - but the details come through the living prophets "at the time".

in Christ,

Bob

[Dr. Rich]

Good points. But Noah NEVER preached to anyone about the flood--did he? You will not find this in the bible but you will find that Jesus said the people had NO IDEA there was going to be a flood. Why preach when no one was going to be saved anyway--and you could not build the ark larger to hold more people either?

This is just another reason why EGW was not a true prophet.

blessings, Dr. Rich

[Dr. Rich]

Paul was nothing but a liar (as Peter said in his letter written by Clementine) 1st John 5:18 proves that the person who is born again by the Holy Spirit will NOT sin again. They are totally righteous. Who do you bet on--the words of Jesus given to us by the eyewitnesses (John 14:26) or Paul's who's gospel was completly different than Jesus' gospel?

Blessings, Dr. Rich

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Good points. But Noah NEVER preached to anyone about the flood--did he? You will not find this in the bible but you will find that Jesus said the people had NO IDEA there was going to be a flood. Why preach when no one was going to be saved anyway--and you could not build the ark larger to hold more people either?

This is just another reason why EGW was not a true prophet.

blessings, Dr. Rich

You don't think they questioned why some guy was building a gigantic boat and putting animals on it?

[Dr. Rich]

I am not ASSUMING anything--I just go by what the bible teaches us and it is my opinion that when others assume things (like in the CLEAR WORD BIBLE) that they are making God out to be a liar.

Blessings, Dr. Rich