Christ's-Human-Nature

[Neville Peter]

It seems to me that you take great comfort in the idea that sin has brought you in to captivity. This is very strange to me, because I have never heard of a slave someone kept in bondage against there will being happy in that condition. Robert how can we be dead to sin and a captive of sin at the same time? How can God work with in us to will and to do his good pleasure as we remain a slave to sin? How can we be a slave to sin while being crusified with christ? The life a born again person has is by the faith of the son of God who loved us and gave himself for us. (Gal 2:20)The life of Christ is the power that sets us free from sin. This is why after being baried with him in baptism we walk with him in newness of life. (Romans :6-4)

It seems to me that this view would make the bible not to mension Paul himself a liar. Paul wrote to the romans that we have received through Christ grace for obedience. Why would Paul say that we have received grace for obedience and then tell the romans 7 chapters later that being bourn again is to be a slave of sin, Then turn around and tell the Hebrews that Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey him. That seems very very inconsistent.

God does nothing in partnership with Satan. Light and darkness can not walk together because they don't agree. The bible tels us in hebrews 7:25 that he is able to save completely. God will not do anything half way. Jesus said That all things are possible if we believe. IF I believe that I have received God's spirit, then I must also believe that he is in me working and willing to do his good pleasure and if he is in me working and willing to do his good pleasure then he is able to keep me from falling and to present me faltless before his throne of glory with out spot or blemish.

The more of God's spirit we receive, the less comfortable we will be with sin. Because the spirit was given to convict of sin of righteousness and of judgment and also when we sin we crusify Christ our Savior again and again.

[TreeOfLife]

Re Iniquity

This is even better:

Iniquity

The root meaning of this word is “to be bent.” As used in Scripture it refers to our spiritual condition. Note the following texts:

* Psalm 51:5. David was “shapen in iniquity” from his very birth. This was his spiritual condition since physically he was handsome [1 Samuel 16:12]. The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

* Isaiah 53:6. Two things are revealed in this text. 1. Everyone of us has gone astray, since we have all turned or bent “to his own way.” 2. This own-way-ness (i.e., self-centeredness) is synonymous with iniquity, which was laid upon Christ our sin bearer; and it was this “sin in the flesh” that Christ “condemned” on the cross [Romans 8:2-3].

Iniquity, therefore, is simply seeking our own way, a condition we are born with and which (without a Saviour) makes it impossible to do genuine righteousness, since the law of God requires even our motives to be pure [Matthew 5:20-22, 27-28]. In contrast to iniquity or self-seeking is agape (divine love) which is of God and which “seeketh not her own” [1 Corinthians 13:5].

* Isaiah 64:6. Because man by nature is “shapen in iniquity,” all the righteousness produced by him through his own efforts is like filthy rags before God, because it is polluted with self-love. According to Zech. 3:3, 4, “filthy garments” are equated with iniquity. In contrast to these filthy garments of ours (self-righteousness), the white raiment of Christ (His righteousness) is offered to the Laodicean church so that they may be truly clothed, and “the shame of [their] nakedness do not appear” before the judgment seat of God [Revelation 3:18; 10:3-4]. [JS]

[links added/ToL]

[Robert]

It seems to me that you take great comfort in the idea that sin has brought you in to captivity. This is very strange to me, because I have never heard of a slave someone kept in bondage against there will being happy in that condition. Robert how can we be dead to sin and a captive of sin at the same time?

1 John 1:8, Romans 3:23

[Robert]

Are you free from all self-interests? Is your love only outward and not bent back towards self? Are you living Christ's life? If no...or almost, you are a sinner.

[TreeOfLife]

Coincidence or the Providence of God?

It seems to me that you take great comfort in the idea that sin has brought you into captivity. This is very strange to me, because I have never heard of a slave someone kept in bondage against their will being happy in that condition. Robert, how can we be dead to sin and a captive of sin at the same time? How can God work within us to will and to do his good pleasure as we remain a slave to sin? How can we be a slave to sin while being crucified with Christ? The life a born again person has is by the faith of the Son of God who loved us and gave himself for us. (Gal 2:20)The life of Christ is the power that sets us free from sin. This is why after being buried with him in baptism we walk with him in newness of life. (Romans 6:4)

It seems to me that this view would make the bible, not to mention Paul himself, a liar. Paul wrote to the Romans that we have received through Christ grace for obedience. Why would Paul say that we have received grace for obedience and then tell the Romans seven chapters later that being born again is to be a slave of sin, then turn around and tell the Hebrews that Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey him. That seems very very inconsistent.

God does nothing in partnership with Satan. Light and darkness can not walk together because they don't agree. The bible tells us in Hebrews 7:25 that he is able to save completely. God will not do anything half way. Jesus said that all things are possible if we believe. IF I believe that I have received God's spirit, then I must also believe that he is in me working and willing to do his good pleasure and if he is in me working and willing to do his good pleasure then he is able to keep me from falling and to present me faultless before his throne of glory without spot or blemish.

The more of God's spirit we receive, the less comfortable we will be with sin. Because the spirit was given to convict of sin of righteousness and of judgment and also when we sin we crucify Christ our Savior again and again.

[Color emphasis added; red for quoted words from Ellen White; blue for corrected errors of spelling etc. I hope you won’t mind my doing that, Neville Peter?/ToL]

Dear Neville Peter,

After posting my last post above, I noticed that you had entered yet another post of yours while I was working on said last post of mine to Robert, and that within that last post of yours you are thrice reiterating words of Ellen White that were brought to my attention last night upon reading the personal witness of a young Seventh-day Adventist at the Army of Youth web site, which words of Ellen White I had copied and pasted into that post, which I was then beginning to prepare in response to Robert’s post.

Coincidence? Or the personal and intimate Providence of God, our Savior?

I am sure it is the latter!

Actually, this particular post of mine to you was first prompted because your reference “romans :6-4” doesn’t make sense and at first I couldn’t make it out. I was going to make this post a question to you re what chapter you were referring to, but after working on, and further considering your post, I decided to do this instead. That is, to enter, within my quote of your post, my own corrections of your most obvious typos while making notice of my edits by the use of blue font. All for the purpose of making your post more readable. I hope you won’t mind me doing that within my quote of your post above?

Humbly,

Tree of Life©

[TreeOfLife]

Absolutely, We Are All Sinners, Me Too!

But…

Are you free from all self-interests? Is your love only outward and not bent back towards self? Are you living Christ's life? If no...or almost, you are a sinner.

[Robert]

But, notice carefully, none of those things is, in and of itself, a sin!

Then you do not need a Savior since these things, according to you, are not sin.

[Robert]

1. If I eat according to Genesis 1:29 when I am hungry, is that an “act that is self centered… sin?”

[TreeOfLife]

Re My Total Need of the Savior

Originally Posted By: TreeOfLife

But, notice carefully, none of those things is, in and of itself, a sin!

Then you do not need a Savior since these things, according to you, are not sin.

Dear Robert,

Without the Savior I’d be dead as a door nail. In fact, I wouldn’t even exist.

So yes, I very much “need a Savior.” Without Him, I couldn’t learn, I couldn’t grow, my thoughts couldn’t be corrected / cleansed / purified / sanctified, nor expanded. My ‘bodily abode’ couldn’t be constantly cleansed and nourished as it is by the blood He has created for that purpose within me…

…and within you!

Shalom,

Tree of Life©

[TreeOfLife]

According to Whose Law?

Originally Posted By: TreeOfLife

1. If I eat according to Genesis 1:29 when I am hungry, is that an “act that is self centered… sin?”

gluttony is a sin, but even Paul says, "but if we have food and clothing, with this be content." I think you and I go way beyond that, huh?

Quote:

2. If I take a shower or bathe when I am dirty, is that an “act that is self centered… sin?”

Again, just like "eating" isn't sin, neither is taking a bath.

Quote:

4. If I go to bed early at night because I’m trying to follow a healthful practice and because I am tired, is that an “act that is self centered… sin?”

No

Quote:

6. If a baby cries because crying is the only means God has provided him for effective communication, is that an “act that is self centered… sin?”

Depends....Is it crying because it didn't get its way? If so, that's sin....

Quote:

7. If I feel an urge or a need to express my love for my spouse and if I act upon that urge or need of mine as best I know how and in accord with my best understanding of his or her needs and desires, is that an “act that is self centered… sin?”

As long as nothing is in it for you. Doing anything, for self-centered reasons, is sin according to the spirit of the law.

[Robert]

“According to the spirit of the law” of whom?

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself". There's noself-love in agape....

[TreeOfLife]

”No self-love…?”

- Do You Really Mean that?

- Do You Really Mean that I Should Not Love My Neighbor?

and How SDAism Is In Breach of the 4th Commandment…

Originally Posted By: TreeOfLife

“According to the spirit of the law” of whom?

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself". There's noself-love in agape....

[color emphasis added/ToL]

[Robert]

...how much self-love should there be in agape love?

You see, if I don’t care to love myself at all, even to the effect of not treating myself well

[Robert]

If you wish to talk about self-love then go to the subject named "love your neighbor as yourself"

[TreeOfLife]

An Excellent Exegesis of Psalm 51:5

“in sin did my mother conceive me…”

>>There is no sin extant in sperm meeting ovum.<<

Writ takes issue with your observation; to wit,

Quote:

Quote:jasd

(...in sin did my mother conceive me. Ps 51:5)

>>Not then. Not now.<<

Not true.

>>Every infant is delivered as a free and sinless being, albeit with more or less of a handicap due to the bonds introduced by its parents and all our ancestors.<<

Without an explanatory, the above appears self-contradictory. Writ informs us that the child is conceived in sin – that would be, imho, imputed sin – attributable to the particular cause and responsibility of our initial parents. We do not understand the whys and wherefores; however,

it bespeaks an adherence to formal articles agreed upon by adversarial parties... beyond the apprehension of our senses.

So, unless the ‘subject’ of the text above was conceived unlawfully, we can only read it as it reads, that is, sin is part and parcel of conception as it pertains to mankind.

.

.

.

[jasd]

>>1. It cannot apply to all children being born, for if it had, then God would not have instructed Man to multiply and replenish the Earth!<<

So, when was it that Gd told man to “replenish”?

>>2. Secondly Paul says that the children of the believers are holy, as likewise we just read!

3. It follows that David, in this passage, must reference someone in his own greater family.<< [/ed.jasd]

Unless we know specifically how St Paul intended “holy” to be received, it does not necessarily follow that David was referring to a “greater family” in Psalms 51.

‘Holy’ is commonly accepted as meaning ‘set apart’ – as would a child born of Believers.

>>Likewise in the prayer of David: In sin did my mother [ancestral mother] conceive me, that is, his ancestral mother Thamar,<<

I understand the concept of constructs which appeal to “ancestral” touchstones; however, I think such a concept is carried a bit farther than it might be allowed in this instance.

>>According to Deuteronomy 23:2 a bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.<<

I submit that that forwarded in the above seeks to validate ex post facto re the “congregation of the Lord”. I question whether Gd meant it to be taken as such...

>>But David had by grace become accepted into this congregation of the LORD.<<

I think the young debater errs upon this particular point; however, should he advance the concept that David was blameless, he may find substantiation from Writ.

>>Perhaps the above quote will shed light upon the path of some one…<<

Indeed.

The above aside, it is refreshing to find young people willing to stand ‘in the breach’, as it were, proclaiming Gd. That said,

Quote:

Quote:jasd

(...in sin did my mother conceive me. Ps 51:5)

It is difficult to read the above quote in a manner other than as straightforward. As the marriage bed is undefiled (Heb 13:4), it seems the reader is left with the conclusion that sin is imputed at conception.

[Robert]

1. It cannot apply to all children being born, for if it had, then God would not have instructed Man to multiply and replenish the Earth! Indeed, that would have meant that we replenish the Earth with devils, as I just said. Accordingly that cannot be.

[TreeOfLife]

Please Define your Meaning…

Dear Robert,

I cannot know what your interests are in this dialogue of ours.

As for me, I am interested in growing ever closer to an understanding harmonizing with that which our Creator designed and created for all of us from the very beginning. I am not interested in upholding or maintaining any old thoughts, teachings, habits, or traditions that are not contributing to that orchestra which is continually being directed by the One that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. It makes no difference if such old thoughts etc. are my own, yours, such as belong to my family, my best friends, the people whom I see in church, my neighbors, my nation, my State, or even the whole world. If such old thoughts, habits, etc. belong outside of that which our Creator has ordained for His People ab initio and forever, then I wish to know about it such that I can cease being a part of it and such that I can cease wasting the limited powers God is giving me towards such ends as are contrary to His will for all of us.

Originally Posted By: TreeOfLife

1. It cannot apply to all children being born, for if it had, then God would not have instructed Man to multiply and replenish the Earth! Indeed, that would have meant that we replenish the Earth with devils, as I just said. Accordingly that cannot be.

Straw man! We are born selfish, not devils.

[TreeOfLife]

Are We Admonished to Replenish… Or Else to Kill?

Whose Children Do We Claim We Are?

Those of the God of Life, Or Else Those of the Destroyer?

Dear Jasd,

I much appreciate and value your thoughtful and focused feedback. Thank you!

In this post of mine I’ll attempt to focus upon cause and consequence of each our use of language…

>>1. It cannot apply to all children being born, for if it had, then God would not have instructed Man to multiply and replenish the Earth!<<

So, when was it that Gd told man to “replenish”?

[Robert]

I think you're in love with your own posts..... teehe