Christ's-Human-Nature

[Robert]

Too love your neighbor as yourself is to Do unto others as you would have them do on to you.

How would you like for your neighbor to loan you $3,000, but if you cant' pay it back, well, he says "don't worry about it"?

You'd love it, right?

Well, then at the same time you should have no problem doing the same to a neighbor, like me! teehe

I would like that $3,000 dollars! I can't promise that I can pay it back, but that shouldn't be a problem for you because if the situation were reversed you'd like this done to you.

Hmmm?

Luke 6:30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you..... 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, [how?] and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

[jasd]

>>Are you then saying that having a fallen nature is the same as sinning?<<

No, I am not saying that man, possessed of a ‘native nature’ wherein sin was imputed at conception, can be equated to the willful act of sin. However, 'humanity' does bespeak a ‘fallen nature’, one which is – the best we may ascertain from Writ – two orders below that of Gd; it being lower than the order of angels. Think about it,

when man sinned, he lost that “image” of Gd and had to cover his shame with leaves. Gd improved upon leaves by killing an animal and dressing Adam and Eve in its skin. (Incidentally, comparatively speaking, a ‘fall’ of two orders may be likened to the difference between insects and us. Were I to be aware of my ‘fall’ of two orders from my “image of Gd” – I would consider myself to have ‘died’ – in its most acute sense.)

>>I am not so sure about that.<<

St Paul did not agree with Mark - did not like him - and St Peter found St Paul next to incomprehensible, which same caused many to wrest his words... It is probable you do not, generally, agree with other Protestors or Catholics; however, do you expect to meet (without mention of the millennial earth) any of them in the new earth?

>>If we want salvation, we have to be born of the spirit. We have to be born again.<<

What does that mean?

>>Jesus was born born again. because he was born of the spirit and also of a woman.<<

Was He not, being Gd, already spirit?

>>It would then seem to me that this was also another big difference between Christ's humanity and ours.<< [ed.jasd]

Indeed. I cannot raise people from the dead, can you? I daresay you cannot raise yourself from the dead, nor can I. Big, Big, difference. I also had both father and mother contribute to my conception.

>>In thinking about the perfect lamb required for a sacrifice, it seems to me that the people living in old testament times brought a spotless lamb, because the spotless lamb was a shadow of the spotless Jesus. And even with that spotless lamb many of them still mist it because they did not have faith in the spotless lamb of God promised to us by God back in Genesis.<<

Other than a bare comprehension of a promised Messiah, I’m not certain they were even entirely aware, if at all, of the antitypical nature involved in their sacrificial system... So, anyway, do you embrace or dismiss

the sacrificial system as forwarded in the latter chapters of Ezekiel?

[Neville Peter]

That's interesting you would say that because I don't lend money I give it away if I have it. If you needed that three thousand dollars and I had it to spare then why not. I'm not sure I understand your sarcasm.

[Robert]

If you needed that three thousand dollars and I had it to spare then why not.

First of all "agape" doesn't ask,

1] Do you need it?

and it doesn't say,

2] I would if I had it to spare

Let's look at that quote again:

Luke 6:30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you..... 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, [how?] and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

I doesn't say, "Give to everyone who asks if you have some to spare." Did Jesus give all of Himself, or just what He could spare?

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Neville Peter

Too love your neighbor as yourself is to Do unto others as you would have them do on to you.

How would you like for your neighbor to loan you $3,000, but if you cant' pay it back, well, he says "don't worry about it"?

You'd love it, right?

Well, then at the same time you should have no problem doing the same to a neighbor, like me! teehe

I would like that $3,000 dollars! I can't promise that I can pay it back, but that shouldn't be a problem for you because if the situation were reversed you'd like this done to you.

Hmmm?

Luke 6:30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you..... 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, [how?] and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

Robert, can I have $3,000?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

How would you like for your neighbor to loan you $3' date='000, but if you cant' pay it back, well, he says "don't worry about it"?

You'd love it, right?

Well, then at the same time you should have no problem doing the same to a neighbor, like me! teehe

I would like that $3,000 dollars! I can't promise that I can pay it back, but that shouldn't be a problem for you because if the situation were reversed you'd like this done to you.

Hmmm?

Luke 6:30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you..... 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, [how?'] and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

Robert, can I have $3,000?

Well, I still love myself, but if I was rich, sure....Notice how I watched out for myself, first.

Rob

[Lutz13]

Well, I still love myself, but if I was rich, sure....Notice how I watched out for myself, first.

[Neville Peter]

a fallen nature (as Ellen White defines it) is simply having the weakened physical condition and having the weakened power of the will. But as the BRI defined it -- it is the whole sinful nature package - which was a mistake on their part given Ellen White's statement that Christ had the fallen nature of Adam after the fall - but had a sinless human nature.

Hmmm that's interesting. where is that EGW statement found? And what is the BRI?

So are you saying that we can be in Christ and be slaves to sin? It seems to me that Romans 7 is the experience of someone who is not in Christ. This is why romans 8:2 says For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Check out verses 3 and 4. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. The law is week through the fleshThat is why we cant keep it. But if we walk in the spirit the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in us according to verse 4. I don't see anywhere in Romans 7 where Paul is saying that wanting to do good and not doing it is a born again experience. I see romans 7 as someone trying to keep God's law in the flesh with out the power of the indwelling Christ. Now I'm wondering how do you describe the born again experience? what is the power Paul is refering to in 2 tim 3 when he says that many will have a form of Godlyness and deny the power? what is that power suppose to do in our lives? How can we be dead to sin according to romans 6 and still be free from the law of sin and death according to Romans 8?

[Neville Peter]

I was thinking more about what you said. I'm wondering are you saying then baced on your senario and your sarcasm that the texts you quoted should not be taken literally? Doesn't Paul agree with Jesus statements when he said to be kind to your enemies for by doing so you are heeping colds of fire on his head? Wasn't Paul kind to the Philipian jailer after he was set free by God? Isn't this how jesus describes perfection in the Sermon on the mount?

[Kountzer]

I am a fan of the gospel recording artist Neville Peter. I know that he is blind and probably wouldn't post here. Why are you mocking his name? Surely you could think of a more original nick name than that.

DB

[Neville Peter]

I was trying to find the post where someone was asking very sarcasticly if I could raze someone from the dead. I couldn't find it to reply directly, but here is my reply. Sure I can if Christ wills it! Didn't Peter raze Tabitha from the dead in the book of Acts? Did not Paul raze the young boy who fell from the window in Acts chapter 20? I can do what ever God through his spirit wants me to do.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

I was trying to find the post where someone was asking very sarcasticly if I could raze someone from the dead. I couldn't find it to reply directly, but here is my reply. Sure I can if Christ wills it! Didn't Peter raze Tabitha from the dead in the book of Acts? Did not Paul raze the young boy who fell from the window in Acts chapter 20? I can do what ever God through his spirit wants me to do.

"Jesus said unto him, if thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth"(Mark 9:23)

[Ted Oplinger]

Um, Neville....

It might be niggling on my part, but...that would be heaping COALS of fire on the head, not colds...

and that would be RAISING from the dead, not razing (in razing something, we destroy it). I don't think you meant to convey the point Paul was into total body destruction of two different believers

(going back to my corner to sit...)

[Tammy]

Originally Posted By: Tammy

I believe that this subject couldn't be more important, for we are told that Jesus is waiting until He has a people who perfectly reflect His character to come back. I believe that is why He has not come yet...the world is ready...it is His people who are not

Tammy, where exactly is the biblical basis for this belief? Where in the world does it say that WE determine when Christ comes? Don't you think that is a little egotistical?

Have you not thought of the logistics of this belief?

How and when exactly, are ALL God's people going to simultaneously achieve this status so Christ can come? Do you really think Christ is looking at His watch while the millions of millions of his followers are trying hard to get their act together all at the same time so He is allowed to come to the earth??

This type of philosophy is NOT biblical and is built from assumption to assumption. It sounds like some of the crazy views Mormons have that cannot be supported by the Bible. Why are we so accusatory of other wayward beliefs of other faiths when we put forth this (along with last generation theology) and pander it as salvation-based truth??

[Tammy]

In Romans 7 Paul says that our born again state is one of "two natures" the "with my mind serving the law of God" (the new Creation of 2Cor 5, the New Birth, new Nature in harmony with God) but then "SIN IN ME at WAR with the Law of my mind" (the sinful nature with sinful propensity, sinful inclination, moral corruption)

So we have TWO natures after the new birth --- Christ only had one.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

So we have TWO natures after the new birth --- Christ only had one.

[Tammy]

But Robert, when Paul says,

Quote:

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

He is saying that in his mind/heart, he wants to be a Christian....but then at the same time he says, (verse 23)

Quote:

But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me.

The Christian is not a slave to sin. The testimony of Paul in Romans 7 is his experience BEFORE he was a Christian... He then CONTRASTS this experience of Romans 7 with Romans 8 ~

Quote:

Rom 8:1 So now(meaning before there was condemnation) there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.

Rom 8:2 And because you belong to Him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death.

[Robert]

But Robert, ... He is saying that in his mind/heart, he wants to be a Christian....

[TreeOfLife]

Sinful ‘Flesh’ OR Sinful ‘Superficiality?’

- Is all the Confusion and the Mystery

Re “the Sinful Nature of Adam After the Fall”

Merely a Simple Matter of a Misunderstood Word?

Dear All,

Reading through all of your posts in this thread I am impressed that each of you are making your very best effort towards standing up for your very honorable attempt to make sense out of a concept you have derived in consequence of your upbringing, schooling, and, not to forget, each your own pursuit of study in regards to this particular.

It appears to me quite evident that the mystery causing all this conundrum is in all instances born of a woman, whether your own mother, your own girl-friend, your wife, the teachings of your church – each our own contribution to it not excluded - and of your church school, the Roman Catholic Church and her reverence for “the mother of God,” and/or in general all that which the women in Revelation 17:5 represent.

In other words, in order to thoroughly resolve these mysteries, we much each of us turn to the very beginning of each particular, to that which is represented by our Father, the Creator, and the One that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

You see, there is a difference between the Father and the Mother, between our Father in heaven and His Bride, our Mother (the Wife of God being that church which consist of true believers whose desires are in accord with Genesis 3:16, that is, those who prevail in the Word of God before anything or anyone else, even before one’s very own Wife and/or Mother…)

There is a distinct difference between Sola Scriptura and between Tradition… To go to the bottom with any thing and to truly find the truth of a matter as it really was and is, one must necessarily use correct foundation stones, correct beginnings… lest one shall build one’s convictions and beliefs upon sand…

Quote:

Matthew 7:26 KJV And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Matthew 7:27 KJV And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

My own little word study…

May I suggest that you do each your own word study regarding key words upon which concepts such as ‘sinful flesh,’ ‘carnal nature,’ etc. are being based? Yesterday I made such a little word study of my own, and lo and behold, it became very evident to me that the Greek and Hebrew words translated ‘flesh’ are somewhat misunderstood and somewhat mistranslated. Not much, but enough that our predecessors have been brought into dead-end reasoning and misconceptions of words, a process that to my mind is strongly reminiscent of the confusion of languages associated with the tower of Babylon as recorded for us in Genesis 11:5-9 and beginning with the subtleties of the one referenced in Genesis 3:1.

What I found is that the original words translated ‘flesh’ do in reality reflect a concept such as ‘a bodily abode,’ that is, the exterior covering within which one dwells. As such this word should not focus our attention upon the innermost nature of our being, even our physical being, but upon that which can be seen superficially, even our naked skin. It almost goes without saying that once spotted by even the least of guilt in consequence of a deed done because of a misunderstood word or concept, one is ashamed and tends to run into hiding and to cover over the stains thus acquired as best one can, doesn’t it? Thus also with a misunderstood word such as those Hebrew and Greek words translated ‘flesh.’ One tries one’s very best to find or create a meaning that isn’t there – forgetting that the only truly effective remedy is to go back to the source, to go back to crawling upon the floor and on one’s belly, dragging one’s belly in the dust (cf. Gen. 3:14 below,) to review and to reconsider the real meaning of such words as one was, even until this very moment, absolutely certain one knew exactly what they meant – and therefore refused, until now, ever to reconsider…

Quote:

Gen 3:14 KJV And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

[color emphasis added/ToL]

In consequence of my own word study, “Remember[ing upon] the Sabbath day…,” even upon that very special annual Scriptural feast called in the Greek New Testament ‘the Day of Sabbaths,’ I was blessed with perceiving the above and that ‘the sinful bodily abode’ and the ‘nature of our bodily abode’ is strictly a reference to such stains upon our naked skin as are acquired in consequence of our playing in the dirt, and to the corresponding stained skin of ours, and likewise to such stains upon each our otherwise empty or ignorant mind, full as it may be by the most fanciful thoughts of one’s own making, not excluding such false concepts as construed over many centuries by men and women of all walks of life, even those most highly esteemed among us… stains that may easily and readily be washed away only by the living words and by the living water provided to me and you at any and all times by our Savior, our Father in heaven, our Creator and Source.

Here’s a link to my simple little Bible word study… should you desire to share a little of the living ‘flesh’ and ‘wine’ brought to me directly from the source… from Him who keeps on washing my feet as I walk step by little step, while learning precept upon precept, as best I can, from His still small voice, as He is ever doing His best to teach me such things as I may not always be very willing, or prepared, to accept.

May God’s peace rest over you and yours as you humbly learn from the lips of our great God, the One that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Shalom,

Tree of Life©

[Robert]

As to the word "flesh" it simply denotes humanity indwelt by iniquity. Hence Paul:

Romans 7: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will [to decide] is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will [i.e., make up my mind] to do, I do not do; but the sin I will not to do, that I do. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I [i.e., my mind] who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law [i.e., like the law of gravity], that sin is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man [i.e., the converted heart/mind]. 23 But I see another law [force, principle] in my members [my flesh], warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me [i.e., my mind] into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

[TreeOfLife]

Perceiving Romans 7:18-23

Through an Understanding That

‘Flesh’ = ‘a Bodily Abode Impaired by the Consequences of Sin’

As to the word "flesh" it simply denotes humanity indwelt by iniquity. Hence Paul:

Romans 7: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will [to decide] is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will [i.e., make up my mind] to do, I do not do; but the sin I will not to do, that I do. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I [i.e., my mind] who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law [i.e., like the law of gravity], that sin is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man [i.e., the converted heart/mind]. 23 But I see another law [force, principle] in my members [my flesh], warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me [i.e., my mind] into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

[Robert]

This is even better:

Iniquity

The root meaning of this word is “to be bent.” As used in Scripture it refers to our spiritual condition. Note the following texts:

* Psalm 51:5. David was “shapen in iniquity” from his very birth. This was his spiritual condition since physically he was handsome [1 Samuel 16:12]. The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

* Isaiah 53:6. Two things are revealed in this text. 1. Everyone of us has gone astray, since we have all turned or bent “to his own way.” 2. This own-way-ness (i.e., self-centeredness) is synonymous with iniquity, which was laid upon Christ our sin bearer; and it was this “sin in the flesh” that Christ “condemned” on the cross [Romans 8:2-3].

Iniquity, therefore, is simply seeking our own way, a condition we are born with and which (without a Saviour) makes it impossible to do genuine righteousness, since the law of God requires even our motives to be pure [Matthew 5:20-22, 27-28]. In contrast to iniquity or self-seeking is agape (divine love) which is of God and which “seeketh not her own” [1 Corinthians 13:5].

* Isaiah 64:6. Because man by nature is “shapen in iniquity,” all the righteousness produced by him through his own efforts is like filthy rags before God, because it is polluted with self-love. According to Zech. 3:3, 4, “filthy garments” are equated with iniquity. In contrast to these filthy garments of ours (self-righteousness), the white raiment of Christ (His righteousness) is offered to the Laodicean church so that they may be truly clothed, and “the shame of [their] nakedness do not appear” before the judgment seat of God [Revelation 3:18; 10:3-4]. [JS]

[Kountzer]

Okay, maybe you are Neville Peter. I first thought you were some sort of imposter. Stuff like that happens in cyberspace.

I have both of your CDs. We saw you in person a few years ago at the Bellfort sda church. If you decide to perform in Houston again, give me some advance notice so I can be there.

DB

[Neville Peter]

Oh being blind my spelling is very bad please excuse me! Thanks for the correction.

[Neville Peter]

I am not going to quibble with you over that. It seems like your saying that doing the will of Christ is imposible. I hope for your sake that is not what your saying. As I said to you before I don't lend money. If someone is in need and I have something to contribute to there necessity I would give it freely.