Moderators John317 Posted March 15, 2009 Moderators Posted March 15, 2009 All this is fine, but it doesn't prove the Sabbath under the NC. It, the sign, will be an issue in the future like circumcision wasn't an issue in the early days of Abraham, but later became one. The New Covenant doesn't change between the time it was ratified and the time of Christ's Second Coming. If the Sabbath will be "an issue" or necessary to obey in the future, then God wants people to keep the Sabbath now. God can't make something a condition of salvation in the future if it was not part of the New Covenant when it was ratified. If it is right to obey the Sabbath commandment in the future, it is right to obey it now if you are aware of it. God doesn't hold anyone accountable for it if they knew nothing about it and had no way of knowing about it. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
LifeHiscost Posted March 15, 2009 Posted March 15, 2009 The Sabbath is a sign like circumcision was a sign. If you insist on the Sabbath without understanding the the meaning of the sign you end up like the Judaizers who were pushing circumcision. "Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant." Exodus 31:16 NKJV "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."Galatians 3:29 KJV "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. "Romans 2:28-29 NASB We can claim the promises as long as we are willing to accept the Giver. However denial of the Giver's authority is the same as denying His promises. Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Moderators Gerr Posted March 15, 2009 Moderators Posted March 15, 2009 All this is fine, but it doesn't prove the Sabbath under the NC. It, the sign, will be an issue in the future like circumcision wasn't an issue in the early days of Abraham, but later became one. The New Covenant: 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all KNOW me, from the least of them to the greatest The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Heb 8:10-11). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. 12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might KNOW that I am the LORD that sanctify them. The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 (electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version.) (Eze 20:11-12). Bellingham WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc. The Sabbath 12 And the Lord said to Moses, 13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ex 31:12-14). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. The Sabbath is a sign of acknowledgement that God alone can make sinners holy again. The devil would like nothing than to turn it around as a sign of legalism instead! The Sabbath is a sign that those who have this law in their hearts and minds KNOW the Lord, not by and by, but NOW! If you don't acknowledge the Sabbath while things are relatively easy, how are you going to acknowledge it when your life is at stake? The very day that you are trying to ignore or get rid off, is the very sign of the new covenant God so designated!!! Quote
Robert Posted March 15, 2009 Posted March 15, 2009 The New Covenant doesn't change between the time it was ratified and the time of Christ's Second Coming. Quote
Robert Posted March 15, 2009 Posted March 15, 2009 "Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant." Exodus 31:16 NKJV "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."Galatians 3:29 KJV Let me help you: Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance comes from the law, it no longer comes from the promise; but God granted it to Abraham through the promise. Romans 4:14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. Quote
Robert Posted March 15, 2009 Posted March 15, 2009 I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts... Quote
Robert Posted March 15, 2009 Posted March 15, 2009 John 5:8 Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." 9 At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked. The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, 10 and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat." 11 But he replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk.'" 12 So they asked him, "Who is this fellow who told you to pick it up and walk?" 13 The man who was healed had no idea who it was, for Jesus had slipped away into the crowd that was there. 14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop your sin or something worse may happen to you." 15 The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Where did the Jews get the idea that failure to keep the Sabbath resulted in death? Answer: The Torah - The book of the law. Notice that no longer was Christ (who created the world) in a state of perpetual rest. Why? His sinless creation had fallen. So, as Jack Sequeira stated, the Sabbath of creation lost its significance. Please don't limit Christ's work to only healing on the Sabbath. Christ's whole life was to redeem us from the law. We can read this in Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. So Christ worked for thirty something years to redeem mankind from under the curse. When Christ died all of us died "in Him". When He said "it is finished" what did He mean? He meant that His work of redemption was perfect and it is complete. Nothing you can do can add to Christ's perfect work. So on the Sabbath God, through Christ, rested the 7th day Sabbath. Why? His work of redemption was perfect. Nothing could be improved on. That's the only reason for NT, NC Sabbath keeping. All other reasons are legalistic, meaningless and filled with tradition. Rob Quote
Robert Posted March 15, 2009 Posted March 15, 2009 If the Sabbath will be "an issue" or necessary to obey in the future, then God wants people to keep the Sabbath now. Did God want Abraham and his male descendants to obey the sign of circumcision before He commanded it? No! Same with the Sabbath as linked to the everlasting gospel. Here's Jack: When this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations [Matthew 24:14]; it will polarize or divide the human race into only two camps — believers and unbelievers [1 John 5:19], those who are fully resting in Christ and those who have ultimately rejected Christ. All who come under the banner of Christ will in the end-time worship the Lord of the Sabbath and their Sabbath keeping will be the outward sign or seal of the righteousness they have already received by faith, just as circumcision was to Abraham “a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised” [Romans 4:11]. Those who have deliberately and ultimately turned their backs to the free gift of salvation in Christ will all worship the dragon which gave power unto the beast [Revelation 13:3-4]. These will exalt Sunday as man’s day of rest in defiance of the Sabbath, God’s rest day. The issue then in the final conflict will not be between two groups of Christians or even two rest days, but two opposing methods of salvation: the Sabbath, signifying salvation by faith alone, versus Sunday, signifying salvation by works or human effort.... When the true gospel of righteousness by faith will be fully recovered and preached into all the world, every person will have to make the choice, either for or against Christ [Deuteronomy 30:19,20; Joshua 24:13-15; Romans 9:30-33; Philippians 3:3-9]. At that time, the Sabbath will become the seal of God, representing righteousness by faith. In contrast, Sunday will represent the Mark of the Beast, signifying man’s rejection of God’s saving grace in Christ [Revelation 14:10-11]. Therefore, when the Sunday (blue) law will be legally established, it will indicate the world’s deliberate and ultimate rejection of God’s loving offer of salvation through His Son. [The Dynamics of the Everlasting Gospel, By E.H. “Jack” Sequeira, Chapter 11 – The Sabbath Rest] Quote
Robert Posted March 15, 2009 Posted March 15, 2009 One more thing: "The Sabbath points to a finished work whether it’s creation, redemption, or the new creation, which is the restoration. It is a finished work. God is the provider. Man is the recipient." [Jack] This is a fundamental truth that we must consider. Once you consider this truth then you must honestly apply it to the many reasons for Sabbath observance. Creation Was Christ's creation sinless originally? Yes! Is that true now? No! So keeping the 7th day Sabbath is meaningless here. You see God only rest when His work is complete...when it is perfect. Is creation perfect now? No! Therefore why should you rest on the 7th day if God is not resting? Restoration Isaiah 66:23 points to the Sabbath on the new earth. This is our future restoration. At that time it will point to Christ's perfect and sinless restoration of humanity. That is future and meaningless now. That only leaves "redemption". Quote
Robert Posted March 15, 2009 Posted March 15, 2009 That only leaves "redemption". Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God [the Jews]. 10 For he that is entered into his rest [i.e., the gospel - compare to verse 3] hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. Now ask yourself - when did God rest from our redemption? What does Paul say? "We were reconciled to God through the death of his Son...." When did Christ's humanity (which is ours) die? Answer: Late Friday evening just prior to the Sabbath. Was God's work through Christ perfect - was it complete? Yes!!! Did God enter a perpetual rest? Yes! Why? Because He couldn't improve on His work "in Christ Jesus". The Jews, like many SDA, were keeping the Sabbath, yet their Sabbath keeping was meaningless and legalistic. Why? Because they had not entered God's rest (accepted the gospel). Since that time the gospel has been all but lost in the debris of tradition, but when the gospel is restored and accepted then, at that time, the Sabbath will become the seal of God. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 16, 2009 Moderators Posted March 16, 2009 Let me summarize what I understand you to be saying: The Sabbath was, now is not, and will again be? Sounds like the beast from the pit! No logic, much less theological soundness. The first part of the decalogue replaced by faith, but the last 6 is binding on Christians. Ask yourself if these propositions are sane, logical, and Biblical. Quote
Robert Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 The Sabbath was, now is not, and will again be? Sounds like the beast from the pit! No logic, much less theological soundness. It is you, Doc, who can't understand! How did you ever make it through med school? Perhaps you are too steeped in tradition? Quote
True-believer Posted March 17, 2009 Author Posted March 17, 2009 Let me summarize what I understand you to be saying: The Sabbath was, now is not, and will again be? Sounds like the beast from the pit! No logic, much less theological soundness. The first part of the decalogue replaced by faith, but the last 6 is binding on Christians. Ask yourself if these propositions are sane, logical, and Biblical. I agree Gerry Cabalo... The first four of the commandments is now a faith issue and the last six commandments are still binding upon Christians... Great stuff, keep it up!!! Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
True-believer Posted March 17, 2009 Author Posted March 17, 2009 Ask yourself if these propositions are sane, logical, and Biblical. These propositions are Biblical!!! Well done Gerry... Keep it up. Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Robert Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 I agree Gerry Cabalo... The first four of the commandments is now a faith issue and the last six commandments are still binding upon Christians... Great stuff, keep it up!!! I don't think Gerry agrees with that....? Quote
SouthAfrican Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 God never changes. And His law also never changed. Why then, would the first four commandments be a faith issue all of a sudden, and the rest still be binding? Not logical. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 17, 2009 Moderators Posted March 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Let me summarize what I understand you to be saying: The Sabbath was, now is not, and will again be? Sounds like the beast from the pit! No logic, much less theological soundness. The first part of the decalogue replaced by faith, but the last 6 is binding on Christians. Ask yourself if these propositions are sane, logical, and Biblical. I agree Gerry Cabalo... The first four of the commandments is now a faith issue and the last six commandments are still binding upon Christians... Great stuff, keep it up!!! Sorry you misundertood because I failed to put a question mark after "Christians." It should have read: "The first part of the decalogue replaced by faith, but the last 6 is binding on Christians? Ask yourself if these propositions are sane, logical, and Biblical." I would have to abandon my ability to reason logically to believe such a notion. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 17, 2009 Moderators Posted March 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo The Sabbath was, now is not, and will again be? Sounds like the beast from the pit! No logic, much less theological soundness. It is you, Doc, who can't understand! How did you ever make it through med school? Perhaps you are too steeped in tradition? It wasn't so long ago that any mention of law, whether the first 4 or the last 6 was anathema to you. Now you at least acknowledge that the last 6 are still good for Christians. That's some progress. Maybe in another 4 yrs you'll see that without the vertical relationship with God represented in the first 4 commandments, the last 6 would be mere ethical suggestions. Quote
Robert Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 God never changes. And His law also never changed. Why then, would the first four commandments be a faith issue all of a sudden, and the rest still be binding? Not logical. 1] We aren't under law. 2] What God writes in the heart is the last 6. 3] Just because you have a desire to love with agape doesn't mean your nature does. It will oppose God's love, which is not self-seeking, until the day you die. 4] So "binding" is a bad word because that infers one is under law instead of under grace. Quote
Robert Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 It should have read: "The first part of the decalogue replaced by faith, but the last 6 is binding on Christians? 1 John 3:23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Faith in God and love to one another. Quote
Robert Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 It wasn't so long ago that any mention of law, whether the first 4 or the last 6 was anathema to you. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 17, 2009 Moderators Posted March 17, 2009 15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Jn 14:15). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. 3 remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ 1 Thes 1:3 ESV 3 We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. NIV 3 For we remember before our God and Father how you put your faith into practice, how your love made you work so hard, and how your hope in our Lord Jesus Christ is firm. GNT We are always giving thanks to God concerning all of you, making mention of you in our prayers, remembering unceasingly your work produced and characterized by the faith which is yours, and your toil motivated and characterized by your divine and self-sacrificial love, and your patient endurance under trials Wuest, K. S. (1997, c1961). The New Testament : An expanded translation. First published in 3 vols., 1956-59, under title: Expanded translation of the Greek New Testament. (1 Th 1:3). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans. Quote
Robert Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. Right, six commandments! He who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 18, 2009 Moderators Posted March 18, 2009 34But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Mt 22:34-40). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’ ” The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Mt 4:10). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. Quote
Robert Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. ‘You shall worship the Lord your God' Sure....And NT love is faith. The Sabbath is not a sign of love. Quote
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