melvin mccarty Posted March 21, 2009 Posted March 21, 2009 Since there are a large number of humans in "heaven" now why is that not a problem. Are they unable to visit Earth?....mel Quote
BobRyan Posted March 21, 2009 Posted March 21, 2009 But the Bible does,"Eternal life starts now, as soon as you invite Christ into your life." So the Christian never really dies, because he has eternal life... So the Christian must transcend straight to heaven... if he has eternal life... What are your thoughts??? Paul describes death for the believer as "sleep" in 1Thess4. Christ describes death for the believer as "sleep" in john 11. Paul argues in 1Cor 15 that IF there is no resurrection then ALL saints who have died - are wiped out! Christ argues in Matt 22 that the ONLY way for God to have been the "God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob" when talking to Moses - was for there to be a future resurrection. --- The point made in John 11 about "Lazarus is DEAD" also equated to "Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake him" is the SAME argument made in the SAME chapter by Christ to Mary saying "he who believes in me shall never die EVEN though he is DEAD". Christ was speaking to the resurrection. He is also speaking to the fact that the spirit of man does not evaporate at death -- it goes to God. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted March 21, 2009 Posted March 21, 2009 Since there are a large number of humans in "heaven" now why is that not a problem. Are they unable to visit Earth?....mel Moses and Elijah "visit earth" in Matt 17. (God did say He would send Elijah - apparently He was serious about that after all). 2Cor 4:4 Satan is called "the god of this world". So this is a universal "war zone". I don't think those saints in heaven just pop in for a picnick. Satan offerred to GIVE the world back to Christ in Matt 4. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Members phkrause Posted March 21, 2009 Members Posted March 21, 2009 Hey Mel, I was not aware of a large amount of humans in heaven. You have Enoch, Moses, Elijah, who else is there? Just thinking of the top of my head but can't think of any others. pk Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
LifeHiscost Posted March 22, 2009 Posted March 22, 2009 I'll stick with Scripture.The time is coming when we will either believe our eyes or believe Scripture. And that would be a powerful reason to immerse our self in the Word before we no longer have the opportunity, that the Holy Spirit may bring back to our memory when it is most needed, the defense that will not fail us. "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD" Amos 8:11 KJV "Your word I have hidden in my heart,That I might not sin against You."Psalm 119:11 NKJV Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted March 22, 2009 Posted March 22, 2009 Either that or when people die their bodies become really tiny. But seriously I have heard that some people think "Abraham's bosom" is a special place where good people go when they die. It isn't exactly heaven. No one seems to be sure exactly where or what it is. Sounds confusing to me. The last I checked, the buried dead stay buried until the resurrection. But here we have the angels carrying dead bodies to Abraham's bosom, if we take it literally. Have you ever heard the phrase__"I will keep you all in my heart,until we meet again."? It would be good to ask Jesus to help us distinguish between a metaphor, or idiom, and literal reality. "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."Proverbs 3:5 KJV "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth..."John 16:13 KJV "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13 KJV Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted March 22, 2009 Posted March 22, 2009 Hey Mel, I was not aware of a large amount of humans in heaven. You have Enoch, Moses, Elijah, who else is there? Just thinking of the top of my head but can't think of any others. pk "...and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. "Matt 27:52,53 NKJV Because of these next two texts, there are many who believe Jesus took many back to heaven at the time of His ascension. "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." Ephesians 4:8 KJV "...it is appointed unto men once to die"Hebrews 9:27 KJV There is no biblical evidence they have been given powers of revisiting those left here on earth. Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
olger Posted March 22, 2009 Posted March 22, 2009 Since there are a large number of humans in "heaven" now why is that not a problem. Are they unable to visit Earth?....mel New math. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
melvin mccarty Posted March 22, 2009 Posted March 22, 2009 How many times did Lazurus die?...mel Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 23, 2009 Moderators Posted March 23, 2009 But the Bible does,"Eternal life starts now, as soon as you invite Christ into your life." So the Christian never really dies, because he has eternal life... By faith eternal life begins as soon as he accepts Jesus into his life. Faith in Jesus is his title-deed to it. But it does not become his in fact until he receives immortality at the Second Coming of Christ, 1 Cor 15. And if he goes straight to heaven, what's the point of the Second Coming? Quote: So the Christian must transcend straight to heaven... if he has eternal life... What are your thoughts??? That leaves you with a dilemma. If the sinner who believes comes into possession of eternal life in reality right now, what happens to the unbelieving sinner? If he does not have inherent immortality and could not receive eternal life like the believing sinner, then he cannot go straight to hell if he dies, right? Quote
olger Posted March 23, 2009 Posted March 23, 2009 How many times did Lazurus die?...mel Twice and he is still in his grave awaiting the resurrection of Christ. OG Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
True-believer Posted March 23, 2009 Author Posted March 23, 2009 That leaves you with a dilemma. If the sinner who believes comes into possession of eternal life in reality right now, what happens to the unbelieving sinner? If he does not have inherent immortality and could not receive eternal life like the believing sinner, then he cannot go straight to hell if he dies, right? Wrong... Jesus says that He came to give us life, and life to the fullest which turns into eternal life... All those who accepts Jesus Christ gets that gift of eternal life... And all those who don't accept Him, will not get eternal life... But there is this one greek word in 1 Corinthians which denotes that the unbelieving soul will get everlasting life in hell and be tortored day and night... What are your thoughts??? Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
LifeHiscost Posted March 23, 2009 Posted March 23, 2009 . But there is this one greek word in 1 Corinthians which denotes that the unbelieving soul will get everlasting life in hell and be tortored day and night... What are your thoughts??? And that text would be where? LHC Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Moderators Gerr Posted March 23, 2009 Moderators Posted March 23, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo That leaves you with a dilemma. If the sinner who believes comes into possession of eternal life in reality right now, what happens to the unbelieving sinner? If he does not have inherent immortality and could not receive eternal life like the believing sinner, then he cannot go straight to hell if he dies, right? Wrong... Jesus says that He came to give us life, and life to the fullest which turns into eternal life... All those who accepts Jesus Christ gets that gift of eternal life... And all those who don't accept Him, will not get eternal life... But there is this one greek word in 1 Corinthians which denotes that the unbelieving soul will get everlasting life in hell and be tortored day and night... What are your thoughts??? Not my thoughts, but it is written: 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 (electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version.) (1 Co 15:50-54). Bellingham WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc. Quote
melvin mccarty Posted March 26, 2009 Posted March 26, 2009 Olger do you then assume that all those raised with Jesus stayed on earth and died again? I believe we simply do not know who are alive in heaven now and we should not assume that we do know.....mel Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 27, 2009 Moderators Posted March 27, 2009 “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Eph 4:8). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. Therefore, I believe they went to heaven with Him as first fruits. Quote
melvin mccarty Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 I believe that Gerry. We simply are not told everything. There could be others who are there. Lazurus for instance. ....mel Quote
True-believer Posted April 1, 2009 Author Posted April 1, 2009 I am currently doing a study on Eternal Torment, and what the word "Forever" really means... Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Moderators John317 Posted April 1, 2009 Moderators Posted April 1, 2009 I am currently doing a study on Eternal Torment, and what the word "Forever" really means... It literally means "to time indefinite" and is defined by its context. You might want to look it up in the Bible concordance and see how it's used. When used of mortals, it means as long as we live, or for a long time. When used in reference to God, who is immortal, it means "without end." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Originally Posted By: True-believer I am currently doing a study on Eternal Torment, and what the word "Forever" really means... It literally means "to time indefinite" and is defined by its context. You might want to look it up in the Bible concordance and see how it's used. When used of mortals, it means as long as we live, or for a long time. When used in reference to God, who is immortal, it means "without end." Soul sleep would indeed be a dream come true to the terrorists, rapists, murderers and the like. How often do we hear and see on the news the coward, take his own physical life rather than be judged and punished in this life by our own government, which the scripture says are "ministers of God" in Hebrews. They kill themselves, thinking as Adventist teach they only are going to sleep. How nice. What really happens is they are judged by God and the angels and sent to eternal punishment before the great and final punishment when both body and soul are punished in everlasting torment in the resurrection of the dead. The Adventist are guilty of promoting DEATH as an escape of PUNISHMENT FOR CRIMES. And, the blind murderers, rapist and terrorist love to hear the Adventist and Armstrong message which actually has little differences between the teachings of the atheist and the SDA. Quote
Woody Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Hey .... B Humble ... Haven't seen you around in awhile. Welcome back. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted April 8, 2009 Moderators Posted April 8, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 It literally means "to time indefinite" and is defined by its context. You might want to look it up in the Bible concordance and see how it's used. When used of mortals, it means as long as we live, or for a long time. When used in reference to God, who is immortal, it means "without end." [/quote'] Soul sleep would indeed be a dream come true to the terrorists, rapists, murderers and the like. How often do we hear and see on the news the coward, take his own physical life rather than be judged and punished in this life by our own government, which the scripture says are "ministers of God" in Hebrews. They kill themselves, thinking as Adventist teach they only are going to sleep. How nice. What really happens is they are judged by God and the angels and sent to eternal punishment before the great and final punishment when both body and soul are punished in everlasting torment in the resurrection of the dead. The Adventist are guilty of promoting DEATH as an escape of PUNISHMENT FOR CRIMES. And, the blind murderers, rapist and terrorist love to hear the Adventist and Armstrong message which actually has little differences between the teachings of the atheist and the SDA. This is your opinion, and you're welcome to it if that's what you think, but it's not evidence. Our beliefs must be based on Bible evidence, not on what we would like to believe or on what we think God ought to do. The truth is that Seventh-day Adventists teach exactly what the Bible teaches, that all people will be judged and receive their rewards, just as Rev. 20: 11-15 and Ecc. 12: 14 say. Where we differ is that you believe the lost will be punished with eternal life in pain, whereas Seventh-day Adventists teach that people will be punished with eternal death. We agree with the Bible. Romans 6: 23-- "The wages of sin is death." It doesn't say the wages of sin is endless suffering. I know that you believe death is consciousness, a form of life; but that is not what the Bible teaches. In the plainest language possible, God tells us that "the dead do not know anything." Ecc. 9: 5. If the dead are actually alive and aware and continue to be capable of responding in some fashion, the concept of "dying to sin" would not make sense. See Romans 6: 2-11. The whole significance of the phrase "dying to sin" comes from the fact that the dead can't and don't respond at all. The illustration only makes sense if the dead are unconscious and cannot respond to stimuli. It would be different if you could show from the Bible that God made humans with an immortal spirit or soul, but the Bible says no such thing. See Gen. 2: 7. Dust + breath of life= a living soul, or living being. The idea is that we are living souls, not that we have an immortal soul living within a body. So when a person dies, here's what happens: living soul- breath of life= dust. That is precisely what God told Adam and Eve would happen when they died. See Gen. 3: 19. It is also in Ecc. 12: 7: "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit [breath] will return to God who have it." Notice here that the breath, or spirit, of all mankind-- both of the wicked as well as the good-- returns to God. Ecc. 9: 2 says that the same event (death) happens to the righteous and the wicked. Death is the same for all. The ultimate difference between the the righteous and the wicked is shown in the resurrection and in the judgement, not in the first death. See again Ecc. 12: 14 and also John 11:11-14, 23. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
jasd Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 >>THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS NOT CHRISTIAN...<< Disregarding the ersatz nature of the litany following - according to what legitimate criteria might one appeal – to verify the assertion that the “THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS NOT CHRISTIAN”? >>Firstly, they already have there own Father--the priest in there so-called church;<< They do not reject the Heavenly Father but rather – subscribe to the Pauline doctrine of there being the Father Gd, as well..., 1 Tim 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but entreat [him] as a father; [and] the younger men as brethren; I daresay that a Xtian has no problem addressing others of the faith – as brethren and/or sisters – so, why would they reject St Paul’s advice re elders? St Paul often referred to himself as ‘father’ – in the spiritual sense. Calling another father seems to have been well established in OT literature... 2 Kings 2:12 “My father, my father!” –Elisha, calling after Elijah You don’t think that Jesus Christ, when saying that we are not to call any man on earth father except only He who is our father in heaven – was indulging in the rhetorical device of hyperbiostic extravagation? (Should you wish, I’ll parse the remaining objections you’ve listed...) [/ ”or others”] Quote
jasd Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 >>Separation of the body into separate components was a Greek concept if my memory serves me.<< Much of what we define as our dogmas and doctrines -- owe their exposition to the Greeks; and, indeed, there is the body, the soul, and the spirit – compositionally. >>And man became a "Living Soul" ©... No body, no breath .......... no "Living Soul"..... Man does not have a Soul. Man "IS" a Soul.<< Exactly. And what part is that of the spirit in all of this. Quote
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