Life After Death???

[guibox]

We are fallen...we are sinful and we are mortal. So mortality is to sin what immortality is to righteousness. Hence the teaching that man has an immortal soul denies that the whole person is fallen and that nothing good dwells in him, outside the Holy Spirit.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: Taylor

AGain this is the problem of a missunderstanding of the judgement. The judgement hadn't begun yet and God is a fair God who has (in the recent past) and is continuing to go through every name. He wants to make it clear to the universe that no mistake has been made. The decisions that people made here on this earth have affected their eternal destiny becuase God doesn't force anyone to be saved. Their rejection of God has eternal consequences but God does not ever burn any sinner forever, or it would mean that sin has eternal life and the

Bible is clear that "The soul that sinneth it shall die" Ezekiel 18:4. Also Malachi 4:3 says we will tread on the ashes of the whicked and Malachi 4:1 says that there will be left neither root nor branch...because it shall burn them up". You see, there is a hell where the consequences or the punishment is eternal but the fire or "torture" is not eternal..they will simply be burned up. Praise the Lord it is very clear in his word. God is not worse then Hitler...who tortured people...God has the ability to keep them a live, but he is not that kind of tyrant. He is after erradication of sin, not after torturing people throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity that is why they are "burned up" and why all "souls that sin wil die".

You obviously don't know what death is. It's not annihilation. As well, you don't know even the differences between Hitler and God in judgment. Hitler was evil, God is righteous. His judgment is RIGHTEOUSNESS. Hitler did not create you, GOD DID. Hitler did not offer HIMSELF as a sacrifice for your sins and salvation CHRIST DID. GOD IS RIGHTEOUS TO TORMENT THE WICKED! As Paul writes in Romans 2:, the wicked don't receive annihilation But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, INDIGNATION AND WRATH, TRIBULATION AND ANGUISH! upon every soul of man that doeth evil, NOT SOUL SLEEP OR ANNIHILATION

No righteous God would keep people alive for torture. The Bible is very clear about that. Sorry you don't see it, but it is clear in many many ways.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

When the day of judgment comes the wicked are not annihilated. They are “tormented day and night forever and ever” . Rev.14:11 and Rev.20:10.

Revelation is full of symbols. We must first go to those clear verses. Those who first go to these very symbolic books can make the Bible say anything!

This issue is really simple.

Did Jesus, as the Son of Man, die? Clearly "yes" for if He didn't then Romans 5:10 is untrue:

"We were reconciled to God through the death of His Son"

So we are justified, reconciled to God, because of Christ's death (which is our death - see Romans 6:6; 7:4). If Christ didn't die then we are lost.

We are told, by the Bible, that Christ took the sins of the whole world (the sins of everyone, past, present and future) upon Himself. How long did it take Christ to die the 2nd death? About 6 hours.

So in 6 hours He took the curse and died. He had the whole world's sin on Him.

Now, let's say a 10 year old girl dies. She has passed the age of accountability and she never accepted Christ. She wasn't a bad kid, she just didn't need Christ. By that I mean she stayed out of trouble. According to your theology she will be tormented forever and ever.

Now Christ paid the sins of the whole world in 6 hours and yet this girl, who is just one sinner, must be tormented not for just 6 hours, but for eternity? How is that fair? This is injustice and it attacks God's goodness.

Rob

Agreed, apparently BHumble hasn't read what the word "forever means" that we posted earlier. Oh well, I don't have time, with moving and all to keep posting things over and over and over again.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

Sir, you are thoroughly confused person. Not only is it clear you don't know what death is,it's clear you don't know what sleep is. When a person is sleeping his BODY is at rest while his SPIRIT OR SOUL IS ALIVE AND WELL.

People find lots of false teachings they THINK they got from "the bible", it's because they lack understanding and knowledge. I've known a lot of people who WERE SDA but they LEFT THE SDA when they found out the bible didn't teach what the SDA said it taught. They found out they were only fooled for a time when they learned more about what the bible really teaches.

Mr. Humble, I must say that the last two posts I replied to from you do not make it appear that you have a whole lot of understanding. You actually come off as pretty confused yourself. And you're pretty arrogant as usual, I see. You haven't changed at all since the last time you were with us.

As the moderator, Mr. Humble, I'm going to ask that you keep on topic and not denigrate people and groups. Be polite as you possibly can be and show common courtesy. Try to say something positive once in a while if you can bear it.

I expect to see you keeping your comments on the topic and away from put-downs and comments about whole groups of people.

Well Mr Humble, the weight of the evidence of the hundreds of thousands who have found the SDA church simply becuase it does follow the Bible far outweighs the few who have chosen to ignore clear Bible teachings, or have left because of a personal missunderstanding or personal hurt or some other reason. (I could also tell you of many who have left and have come back because of the clarity of Bible teachings but that is neither here nor there.) I am not mad at anyone who isn't an SDA. God leads people at different speeds. But I have traveled the world and have met hundreds and hundreds of people who have come to the exact some conclusions as the SDA church has on topics of the Sabbath, state of the dead, rapture, judgement etc, not becuase they were "coerced" or "brainwashed" by the SDA church but they found it on their own. God's spirit is no respecter of persons and he leads the honest in heart to truth. Many such people were worshiping in small groups on their own, thinking they were the only ones who had found such truth, and they wanted the priviledge of keeping the Sabbath etc. When they couldn't find a church to worship, they started their own. Later they discovered the SDA church, some of them, years after they had decided to follow God's Word in every aspect and they were pleasantly surprised that there is a world-wide chuch who believes the truth.

Every church has people who have left that chcurch to become members of another church. Sometimes it is over doctrine, sometimes over personality conflicts, sometimes because they don't want to follow the truth that that church teaches, sometimes because they truely don't understand. It doesnt' bother me that people leave my church. I am not saved by being an SDA. What I will never leave is God's word, and the SDA church, is the only church that I have ever found that follows the doctrines and teachings in all areas of the Bible. Does that mean it is perfect? No. Does it mean it has infallable people, no, especially since I am a member...that status was marred, lol but I want to follow God no matter where he leads no matter what it crosses, no matter how "unpopular".

[John317]

.... do you also believe the scripture from Solomon that says, "ALL IS VANITY" ???? d

Ecclesiastes 1:2-3 ( KJV ) 2Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. 3What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?

Do you now believe that all the work a man does is vanity?

It is very clear Solomon is speaking as a CARNAL man's view point, AS LIFE SEEMS ON THE EARTH AND NOT LIKE IT REALLY IS.

Do you know of a Bible verse that contradicts Ecc. 9: 5? That is, one which tells us that the dead in fact do know something?

Solomon told the truth when he wrote Ecc. 3: 17-21:

Quote:

(New American Standard Bible)

17 I said to myself, "God will judge both the righteous man and the wicked man," for a time for every matter and for every deed is there.

18 I said to myself concerning the sons of men, "God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts."

19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.

21 Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?

1) Everyone will receive judgment. (Compare Ecc. 12: 13, 14) (Notice that this necessitates resurrection of the dead.)

2) Both man and animals die the same way: they stop breathing, their heart stops beating, their brain stops functioning-- they die and return to the earth. In terms of the way we die, man has no advantage over the animals.

3) Upon death, both man and animals go to the same place-- the grave, the earth.

4) The breath of life returns to God who gave it and our bodies return to the earth.

[Robert]

The other problem when it comes to doctrinal points is that one needs to remember that the Bible is full of metaphors. Unless we understand this we can get into trouble. Take for example Ecc 12:6

"Before ever the silver cord is cut [that's a metaphor], or the vessel of gold is broken [ditto], or the pot is broken at the fountain [ditto], or the wheel broken at the water-hole [ditto]; 7 And the dust goes back to the earth as it was [we came from dust], and the spirit [the breath of life] goes back to God who gave it.

Nothing literally goes back to God. It's a metaphor. God gave us life when He created Adam and when we die that life goes back to God who gave it. It's metaphoric. Otherwise there's something good in us that returns to God and therefore salvation isn't through Christ alone, but in someway we can contribute to it because our spirit is naturally righteous!

Rob

[John317]

Again, you have no IDEA WHAT DEATH IS. You think it's annhilation or nonexistence. It's not. You have no idea why Paul could write, "while you were DEAD in your sins, CHRIST DIED FOR YOU."

To show that I'm wrong on this point, you would need to prove from the Bible evidence that all humans have an immortal soul or spirit within their bodies. You have failed to show this.

Yes, I do know very well why Paul could write what he did in Eph. 2: 1, 5. Christ raised us from spiritual death to spiritual life. We were spiritually dead in transgressions and sins. God gave us a new life, a new beginning in Christ, even while we were spiritually dead in sins.

But if you believe that death is not death but actually life, the illustration of being "dead in sin" makes no sense. For Paul's illustration of "death" to mean anything, you have to know that death is really and truly death.

Your problem is that in your thinking death is a higher form of life. You believe that the dead are even more aware, and know more, than the living. That is contrary to Scripture. The dead really do know absolutely nothing. Nada.

Quote:

In the above quotation over verses, my friend tries to make the death of the righteous and the death of the wicked equal. As if the righteous have no reward after death are treated exactly as the wicked. .....

As far as the process of death is concerned, the death of all people and the death of a dog is the same. Except for Christ and His promise of resurrection, there would be no difference whatsoever. Christ makes all the difference. Without Him, there would be no difference between the death of the righteous and the death of the wicked.

For you, even if Christ hadn't died and been raised, our death would be different from a dog's death because you believe that we humans have something innate within us that makes us different: an immortal soul. That is absolutely false from the Biblical standpoint. Nowhere does the Bible declare that man has an immortal soul inhabiting his body.

The difference lies in the future resurrection, not in how we die or in what happens immediately after death. We all go into the same earth the same way, just as Ecc. 3: 18-21 says. Study Malachi 3: 18 and 4: 1-3.

This is Bible teaching. See what God told Adam in Gen. 3: 19. God didn't tell Adam and Eve that part of them would survive death and go to heaven if they put their faith in Him. He didn't say part of them would go to hell after they died if they were wicked. God told them, "YOU will die and and be buried and return to the dust." He did not mention anything about an immortal spirit or soul that would survive the death of the body and go on living.

Is that true or not?

Quote:

When the day of judgment comes the wicked are not annihilated.

There are many Bible verses which show that the wicked are utterly and completely destroyed. See a few below.

Daniel 7: 26--

'But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. (NAS) (Strongs# 8046) (Aramaic: shem-ad)

(Aphel) to destroy

Translated Words

KJV (1) - consume, 1;

NAS (2) - Shemed, 1; annihilated, 1;

Isaiah 1: 28 says the wicked will "come to an end." The Modern Language Bible (New Berkeley Version) translates it, "annihilated."

The Hebrew word is "kalah" (Strongs #3615) and means "to be consumed, to vanish, to cease, end."

Strong's Number: 3615 hlk

Original Word Word Origin

hlk a primitive root

Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling

Kalah kaw-law'

Parts of Speech

Verb

Definition

to accomplish, cease, consume, determine, end, fail, finish, be complete, be accomplished, be ended, be at an end, be finished, be spent

NAS (208) - annihilate, 1; annihilated, 2; been consumed, 2; been spent, 1; came to an end, 1; ceased, 1; come to an end, 5; completely gone, 1; consume, 6; consumed, 16; demolish, 1; destroy, 10; destroyed, 4; destroyed them all, 1; destroys, 1; destruction, 1; devoured, 1; died, 1; end, 4; ended, 3; ending, 1; exhausted, 2; exterminated, 1; finish, 6; finished, 67; finishes, 1; make an end, 1; over, 1; perish, 1; perishing, 1; put an end, 2; spent, 5; terminate, 1; vanish, 2; vanishes, 1; waste away, 1; wastes away, 1.

[John317]

The other problem when it comes to doctrinal points is that one needs to remember that the Bible is full of metaphors. Unless we understand this we can get into trouble. Take for example Ecc 12:6

"Before ever the silver cord is cut [that's a metaphor], or the vessel of gold is broken [ditto], or the pot is broken at the fountain [ditto], or the wheel broken at the water-hole [ditto]; 7 And the dust goes back to the earth as it was [we came from dust], and the spirit [the breath of life] goes back to God who gave it.

Nothing literally goes back to God. It's a metaphor. God gave us life when He created Adam and when we die that life goes back to God who gave it. It's metaphoric. Otherwise there's something good in us that returns to God and therefore salvation isn't through Christ alone, but in someway we can contribute to it because our spirit is naturally righteous!

Rob

Agreed. Good points.

[John317]

When the day of judgment comes the wicked are not annihilated. They are “tormented day and night forever and ever” . Rev.14:11 and Rev.20:10. Rev.4:8 uses the term “day and night for ever and ever” to clearly mean the UNENDING praising of God by the Angels in heaven. And so it is correct to understand the same “day and night for ever and ever” as the unending torment of the wicked in Rev.14:11 and Rev.20:10 As Christ clearly says in Matt.25:46 “These (the wicked) shall go into unending punishment but the righteous into life unending” . Both words are “aion” which clearly means UNENDING in both places.

Do you know of any good translation that uses the word "unending" in Rev. 14: 11 and Rev. 20: 10 or in Matt. 25: 46 in reference to the punishment of the wicked?

The fundamental rule you are forgetting or ignoring is that when it refers to immortal beings, the Greek word, aiov, meaning "without end."

On the other hand, when aiov is used in reference to mortals, it means as long as they live or for a relatively long period of time.

Therefore, when it is used in reference to sinners who are mortal, it means as long as they live. When it is used with reference to those who are made immortal, it means without end.

If you look closely at Matthew 10: 28 and Rev. 20: 14, you will see that the death of the wicked results in annihilation. The only way it could be anything but annihilation is if God created Adam with an immortal soul, but God didn't do that. See Gen. 3: 22-24 for the reason God did not make us immortal or give us immortal souls or spirits.

[John317]

Isa.38:18-12 the same is true with this scripture.

Below shows that the text is clearly contrasting the dead with the living in their ability to praise and thank God. It is obvious why the dead cannot praise and thank God. Because they are unconscious and unaware of Him. Lesson: praise God now because after you die, you won't be able to.

Quote:

Young's Literal Translation:

18 For Sheol doth not confess Thee, Death doth not praise Thee, Those going down to the pit hope not for Thy truth.

19 The living, the living, he doth confess Thee.

New International Version--

18 For the grave cannot praise you,

death cannot sing your praise;

those who go down to the pit

cannot hope for your faithfulness.

19 The living, the living—they praise you,

as I am doing today;

fathers tell their children

about your faithfulness.

The Message (Paraphase):

The dead don't thank you,

and choirs don't sing praises from the morgue.

Those buried six feet under

don't witness to your faithful ways.

It's the living—live men, live women—who thank you,

just as I'm doing right now.

Parents give their children

full reports on your faithful ways.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Taylor

I know many have posted a lot of evidence from the Bible, becuase the subject of death is very clear, but here are some texts for you to consider:

Job 7:9,10 talks about he who does does not come and return to his house anymore, neither shall his place know him any more. (So anyone who has talked to a "dead ancestor" or "friend" is not talking to that friend at all, but to something far more dangerous.)

There are many many other such texts....many of which have already been mentioned.

Job himself said he would "WAIT" UNTIL he was raised.

Yes, we do wait in the grave until Christ raises us at the Second Coming. But we do not wait "consciously" but unconsciously as in a sleep. When you are asleep at night, you are not aware of the passage of time. That is how it is for the dead. Time passes and they are completely unaware of it.

Now please study Job 7: 6-10, and see also the verses in the references given at the end of the post. They will help a lot to understand what Job is saying.

Quote:

Job 7:6-10 (English Standard Version)

6 My days are swifter than a weaver’s shuttle

and come to their end without hope.

7 "Remember that my life is a (A) breath;

my eye will never again see good.

8 The eye of him who sees me will behold me no more;

while your eyes are on me, I shall be gone.

9 As ( the cloud fades and vanishes,

so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up;

10 he returns no more © to his house,

nor (D) does his place know him anymore.

Cross references:

A. Job 7:7 : Job 6:26; Psalm 78:39; James 4: 14

B. Job 7:9 : Job 21:13

C. Job 7:10 : Job 10:21; 2 Sam 12:23

D. Job 7:10 : Job 20:9; Psalm 103:16; Job 8:18

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Taylor

I know many have posted a lot of evidence from the Bible, becuase the subject of death is very clear, but here are some texts for you to consider:

Acts 2:29-34 talks about David not having ascended to heaven

ACTS 2: IS SPEAKING OF DAVID'S BODY NOT HIS SOUL...

The point is that David is dead and buried and is in his grave. Peter is talking about a Psalm which refers to being in God's presence. Peter is saying that cannot be speaking of David because David is dead and in his grave. He did not go to heaven. David did not go to heaven in any form, whether physically or as an immortal, conscious spirit. He just did not go there. He is on the earth in the grave waiting unconsciously for His Lord to come for him.

There is no evidence that David is conscious in heaven with God at this time. That is the Apostle's point, that David wasn't talking about himself because he didn't ever go to heaven.

Do you know a Bible verse which places David's soul in heaven and in the presence of God? I don't think Peter knew about it. If he had known of it, he would not have said what he did in Acts 2: 25-30. He couldn't say that David didn't ascend to heaven to be with God if in fact that is where David is. This is absolute proof that Peter knew nothing about David's being in God's presence at the time Peter said those words.

[John317]

The Adventist are actually preaching ATHEISM AND THEY ARE GLAD TO DO IT.

Atheism is "no God." We preach that God exists and that He sent Jesus Christ into the world to die in order for all who put their faith in Him to be saved in God's kingdom. We preach John 3: 16 and all the other verses in the Word of God. That is not atheism.

We preach the same thing that Paul did at Athens and the rest of the book of Acts. Where in the book of Acts do you find the apostles preaching the pagan belief that the human soul is immortal? Not a word! Where is it to be found? Among the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Greeks and Romans. Their writings are full of the teaching, but not the Bible and not the preaching of the apostles as recorded in the book of Acts.

When Paul talked of the resurrection of the dead, Acts 17: 32 says the people of Athens mocked him. Why? Because to the people who believed in the immortality of the soul and that the body was unimportant, it made no sense for the body to be raised. They believed that the soul didn't die with the body. They believed just like you do. It's a pagan belief, unsupported by Scripture. If you believe this is wrong, produce the Bible verse which says the human soul is naturally immortal.

[Taylor]

Adventists don't teach Atheism any more than do Baptists or Methodists or whatever religion you happen to be BeHumble. It would be nice if you wouldn't throw around accusations.

And true, John, the only one who is immortal is God, the Bible is clear on that.

[B Humble]

Adventists don't teach Atheism any more than do Baptists or Methodists or whatever religion you happen to be BeHumble. It would be nice if you wouldn't throw around accusations.

And true, John, the only one who is immortal is God, the Bible is clear on that.

Adventism has borrowed the arguments invented by the Atheist and used them to defend their brand of so-called christianity. The Atheist arguments are exactly the same.. they use the same old

1. Hitler/God comparison

2. Man is just like an animal in death comparison - NOTICE HOW THE ABORTIONIST USE THE SAME HEINOUS ARGUMENTS.

3. Death is annihilation..

on and on it goes.

[Robert]

Where's the beef?

[Woody]

Robert ... that is a different thread.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: Taylor

Adventists don't teach Atheism any more than do Baptists or Methodists or whatever religion you happen to be BeHumble. It would be nice if you wouldn't throw around accusations.

And true, John, the only one who is immortal is God, the Bible is clear on that.

Adventism has borrowed the arguments invented by the Atheist and used them to defend their brand of so-called christianity. The Atheist arguments are exactly the same.. they use the same old

1. Hitler/God comparison

2. Man is just like an animal in death comparison - NOTICE HOW THE ABORTIONIST USE THE SAME HEINOUS ARGUMENTS.

3. Death is annihilation..

on and on it goes.

If I may say so...you really don't read what we post or you could never say that!

WE AREN'T comparing God to Hitler, but if you believe in eternal torment then you make God out to be worse than Hitler because he is keeping people alive to torture them. Fact is I have met many people who have now become Christians when they realize that God isn't anything like Hitler, which is what they were led to believe previously. No wonder Atheist reject a God who is worse than Hitler. I can't blaim them! The God, the creator of the universe isn't like that. He erradicates sin.. from the universe forever, so the results of the punishment are eternal but God does not keep people alive to torture them. It is amazing to me that ANY christian who loves people would be pleased with torturing even wicked people. That is scary. That kind of mentality has created many a war and has justified the use of force, torture, and abuse for people who don't believe like they do. God never forces anyone. What he does is out of mercy not hatred and is done from a broken heart, not from joy of seeing people tortured. The God of the Bible simply isn't like that.

Wow and your comparison to abortion is completely out of place. We never said that Man and Animal has the same value...NEVER. Man is of infinate value as Christ died for each one of us, even those who will be ultimately lost. BUT in the end Man ceases to exist as do animals, if they are lost. Man is still much more valuable that is why God's great heart of love will forever have a hole left in it for every lost human being. But God is a loving God who allows them to have an end to their miserable existence that comes from rejection of truth and love. Life begins at conception and abortion is wrong, at least in my conviction of reading the scriptures. We are not in disagreement on that.But how in the world you think it gives humans more value...to torture them forever...is beyond me. In that case I would rather not be valued...if that is what it means.

Death is merciful to the sinner who is miserable, doesn't want to live, doesn't want heaven, and hates everything that God in His great love stands for.

You seriously have a very distorted view of the Adventist doctrines and the Bible teachings on the topics listed above.

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

Job himself said he would "WAIT" UNTIL he was raised.

Yes, we do wait in the grave until Christ raises us at the Second Coming. But we do not wait "consciously" but unconsciously as in a sleep. When you are asleep at night, you are not aware of the passage of time. That is how it is for the dead. Time passes and they are completely unaware of it.

Now please study Job 7: 6-10, and see also the verses in the references given at the end of the post. They will help a lot to understand what Job is saying.

Quote:

Job 7:6-10 (English Standard Version)

6 My days are swifter than a weaver’s shuttle

and come to their end without hope.

7 "Remember that my life is a (A) breath;

my eye will never again see good.

8 The eye of him who sees me will behold me no more;

while your eyes are on me, I shall be gone.

9 As ( the cloud fades and vanishes,

so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up;

10 he returns no more © to his house,

nor (D) does his place know him anymore.

Cross references:

A. Job 7:7 : Job 6:26; Psalm 78:39; James 4: 14

B. Job 7:9 : Job 21:13

C. Job 7:10 : Job 10:21; 2 Sam 12:23

D. Job 7:10 : Job 20:9; Psalm 103:16; Job 8:18 [/quote']

Answer: You really don't study the scripture do you? You proof text without any real understanding what's being said.

SO LET ME ASK YOU...

Do you belived that JOB'S DAYS WILL COME TO AN END "without hope" ?

You false suppose JUST LIKE THE ATHEIST, that because YOU don't see someone that he is doesn't exist. Because you have no spiritual eyes to see.

Job did not believe in soul sleep or annihilationism. Jobe believed that his soul went to Sheol, WHICH IS NOT THE GRAVE. Job knew that his soul continued to exist and would wait for God to raise his body from the dead while his SOUL WAS STILL ALIVE WAITING TO BE JOINED TO THE BODY. A person who has no self awareness ISN'T "WAITING" FOR ANYTHING!

[Taylor]

BeHumble...why do you come here? You havent heard what we have posted, you jump to conclusions all the time, you throw around accusations. You are welcome here, but it seems to me that if we are all atheists, and atheists will be alive and tortured throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity and other Christians that are not SDA's are pleased with that, then that is a very cynical and scary attitude. I would NEVER want to see you tortured even if you were lost and I would hope you wouldn't want to see me or anyone else here tortured even if we were "wrong" and "lost".

The problem is that we are just as convinced as you of the beauty of the truth we believe and are excited about it and can't wait to share it with others! God's Word is amazing and I love Him enough to believe what the Bible says even if it isn't popular with a lot of Christianity out there. I am sure you love God too but love doesn't make you right any more than it makes me right. We must each study for ourselves what is truth and must give people the room to believe differently without name-calling and playing God as if we are the judge. God is the ultimate judge and he takes into account people's backgrounds, what they know, what they could have known, their acception or rejection of truth etc. So ultimately I have no idea if you will be saved or lost nor can you say that about me either, because God is the judge. All I know is that I have studied these topics a lot and I am just as convinced as you are of the absolute truth of what I believe. You have jumped to the conclusion that we haven't studied our Bibles. The truth is precisely the opposite. We have come to these conclusions because we have studied it in depth. Does that make us beter than you or infallable...no, not at all! We are just completely and totally committed and convicted and in love with Jesus..no we are not athiests. :)

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

Again, you have no IDEA WHAT DEATH IS. You think it's annhilation or nonexistence. It's not. You have no idea why Paul could write, "while you were DEAD in your sins, CHRIST DIED FOR YOU."

To show that I'm wrong on this point, you would need to prove from the Bible evidence that all humans have an immortal soul or spirit within their bodies. You have failed to show this.

Yes, I do know very well why Paul could write what he did in Eph. 2: 1, 5. Christ raised us from spiritual death to spiritual life. We were spiritually dead in transgressions and sins. God gave us a new life, a new beginning in Christ, even while we were spiritually dead in sins.

But if you believe that death is not death but actually life, the illustration of being "dead in sin" makes no sense. For Paul's illustration of "death" to mean anything, you have to know that death is really and truly death.

Your problem is that in your thinking death is a higher form of life. You believe that the dead are even more aware, and know more, than the living. That is contrary to Scripture. The dead really do know absolutely nothing. Nada.

Quote:

In the above quotation over verses, my friend tries to make the death of the righteous and the death of the wicked equal. As if the righteous have no reward after death are treated exactly as the wicked. .....

As far as the process of death is concerned, the death of all people and the death of a dog is the same. Except for Christ and His promise of resurrection, there would be no difference whatsoever. Christ makes all the difference. Without Him, there would be no difference between the death of the righteous and the death of the wicked.

For you, even if Christ hadn't died and been raised, our death would be different from a dog's death because you believe that we humans have something innate within us that makes us different: an immortal soul. That is absolutely false from the Biblical standpoint. Nowhere does the Bible declare that man has an immortal soul inhabiting his body.

The difference lies in the future resurrection, not in how we die or in what happens immediately after death. We all go into the same earth the same way, just as Ecc. 3: 18-21 says. Study Malachi 3: 18 and 4: 1-3.

This is Bible teaching. See what God told Adam in Gen. 3: 19. God didn't tell Adam and Eve that part of them would survive death and go to heaven if they put their faith in Him. He didn't say part of them would go to hell after they died if they were wicked. God told them, "YOU will die and and be buried and return to the dust." He did not mention anything about an immortal spirit or soul that would survive the death of the body and go on living.

Is that true or not?

Quote:

When the day of judgment comes the wicked are not annihilated.

There are many Bible verses which show that the wicked are utterly and completely destroyed. See a few below.

Daniel 7: 26--

'But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. (NAS) (Strongs# 8046) (Aramaic: shem-ad)

(Aphel) to destroy

Translated Words

KJV (1) - consume, 1;

NAS (2) - Shemed, 1; annihilated, 1;

Isaiah 1: 28 says the wicked will "come to an end." The Modern Language Bible (New Berkeley Version) translates it, "annihilated."

The Hebrew word is "kalah" (Strongs #3615) and means "to be consumed, to vanish, to cease, end."

Strong's Number: 3615 hlk

Original Word Word Origin

hlk a primitive root

Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling

Kalah kaw-law'

Parts of Speech

Verb

Definition

to accomplish, cease, consume, determine, end, fail, finish, be complete, be accomplished, be ended, be at an end, be finished, be spent

NAS (208) - annihilate, 1; annihilated, 2; been consumed, 2; been spent, 1; came to an end, 1; ceased, 1; come to an end, 5; completely gone, 1; consume, 6; consumed, 16; demolish, 1; destroy, 10; destroyed, 4; destroyed them all, 1; destroys, 1; destruction, 1; devoured, 1; died, 1; end, 4; ended, 3; ending, 1; exhausted, 2; exterminated, 1; finish, 6; finished, 67; finishes, 1; make an end, 1; over, 1; perish, 1; perishing, 1; put an end, 2; spent, 5; terminate, 1; vanish, 2; vanishes, 1; waste away, 1; wastes away, 1.

[B Humble]

BeHumble...why do you come here? You havent heard what we have posted, you jump to conclusions all the time, you throw around accusations. You are welcome here, but it seems to me that if we are all atheists, and atheists will be alive and tortured throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity and other Christians that are not SDA's are pleased with that, then that is a very cynical and scary attitude. I would NEVER want to see you tortured even if you were lost and I would hope you wouldn't want to see me or anyone else here tortured even if we were "wrong" and "lost".

The problem is that we are just as convinced as you of the beauty of the truth we believe and are excited about it and can't wait to share it with others! God's Word is amazing and I love Him enough to believe what the Bible says even if it isn't popular with a lot of Christianity out there. I am sure you love God too but love doesn't make you right any more than it makes me right. We must each study for ourselves what is truth and must give people the room to believe differently without name-calling and playing God as if we are the judge. God is the ultimate judge and he takes into account people's backgrounds, what they know, what they could have known, their acception or rejection of truth etc. So ultimately I have no idea if you will be saved or lost nor can you say that about me either, because God is the judge. All I know is that I have studied these topics a lot and I am just as convinced as you are of the absolute truth of what I believe. You have jumped to the conclusion that we haven't studied our Bibles. The truth is precisely the opposite. We have come to these conclusions because we have studied it in depth. Does that make us beter than you or infallable...no, not at all! We are just completely and totally committed and convicted and in love with Jesus..no we are not athiests.

I didn't say you were all Atheist. I said you preach the Atheist gospel of annihilationism. You preach that if you are a rapist, murderer, terrorist, robber..etc, and you kill yourself, you better off than the cops catching you and being shamed and put into prison for years upon years.

Adventist preaches you can murder and torture just like Saddam and Hitler and the rest and all they have to do is be like Hitler and kill himself and he escapes the horror of justice and trades it in for "soul sleep".

I know you love your Jesus, but Adventism has invented a different Jesus than the real one. They despise the real one and have chosen to create a Jesus after their own liking. They've invented a Jesus that is unjust and unrighteous to recompense the murderers, abortionist, rapist..etc for a Jesus that REWARDS wickedness with soul sleep and annihilation. They invented a Jesus that REWARDS cowardice with soul sleep.

I don't want to see you or anyone else tortured or go to hell either, as Christ promised to those who would not repent. That is why I'm here. You have your opportunity to repent of the false gospel you all are preaching, instead you deliberately shut your eyes so that you cannot see. We know the judgment of the false teachers and those who preach a false christ and false gospel, it's clearly spelled out in scripture. It's not soul sleep and it's not annihilation as you all preach. The day will come, when it will be too late as it has been for so many of you all before you now. Me?, I'm trying to keep you from the "terror" of the Lord..from the "ANGUISH, TRIBULATION, WRATH AND INDIGNATION" promised to the false teachers.

[Taylor]

I have many sins to repent of, of course, but I won't trade my Jesus for a view of a Jesus who tortures. It seems as if you are after "revenge" for people like Hitler. God isn't about revenge, brother, God is about redemption and getting rid of Sin, not about revenge or torture. How any christian denomination can be based ona God who tortures is beyond me. (And by the way none of us gets what we "deserve". Sin is so ugly that nothing but getting rid of it forever, would be appropriate, and seeing people tortured wouldn't make heaven, heaven either. God is so perfect that none of us that will be saved deserve salvation either. We are all saved through grace, not through any merits of our own.)

And no, you are not better of by killing yourself than the cops catchin you. We have never ever preached that. Once you are in jail, you would have time to repent, but if you kill yourself in that sin, you would not have that chance. The separation from God, the loss of eternal life is eternal and far deeper than just "killing yourself". Murder never fixes anything. God gives people time to change, and to come to know him.

Adventism never invented any other Jesus. We love the Jesus of the Bible just like you do. You just have a view of God that, in our opinion isn't supported by scripture in any way and is a God to be feared not loved.

The motivation for following God isn't fear of hell, but love for God that can't imagine an eternity with Him. Love is a FAR stronger motivator than fear, that is why perfect strangers have given their lives for another human...it's love, that is why a spouse or a parent would rather die for their spouse or child than see them die, that is committed love. No one wants to be lost, but what is motivating is that we can't wait to spend an eternity with a God who wants us in heaven even more than we want to be there, as opposed to a God who will delight in torturing sinners throughout eternity.

Death being a sleep, people burning till they are burned up when they are lost but not kept alive to be tortured, and the 7th day as Sabbath are very very clear in Scripture. I know you don't see it but we do and are completely convicted of this truth. God will have the ultimate judgement and I am not worried about it because I can trust God's heart of love and truth.

[B Humble]

I have many sins to repent of, of course, but I won't trade my Jesus for a view of a Jesus who tortures. All I see you wanting is "revenge" for people like Hitler. God isn't about revenge, brother, God is about redemption and getting rid of Sin, not about revenge or torture. How any christian denomination can be based ona God who tortures is beyond me.

And no, you are not better of by killing yourself than the cops catchin you. We have never ever preached that. Once you are in jail, you would have time to repent, but if you kill yourself in that sin, you would not have that chance. The separation from God, the loss of eternal life is eternal and far deeper than just "killing yourself". Murder never fixes anything. God gives people time to change, and to come to know him.

Adventism never invented any other Jesus. We love the Jesus of the Bible just like you do. You just have a view of God that, in our opinion isn't supported by scripture in any way and is a God to be feared not loved.

The motivation for following God isn't fear of hell, but love for God that can't imagine an eternity with Him. Love is a FAR stronger motivator than fear, that is why perfect strangers have given their lives for another human...it's love, that is why a spouse or a parent would rather die for their spouse or child than see them die, that is committed love. No one wants to be lost, but what is motivating is that we can't wait to spend an eternity with a God who wants us in heaven even more than we want to be there, as opposed to a God who will delight in torturing sinners throughout eternity.

Death being a sleep, people burning till they are burned up when they are lost but not kept alive to be tortured, and the 7th day as Sabbath are very very clear in Scripture. I know you don't see it but we do and are completely convicted of this truth. God will have the ultimate judgement and I am not worried about it because I can trust God's heart of love and truth.

"FEAR IS THE BEGINNING OF KNOWLEDGE".. Paul said, "knowing the TERROR OF THE LORD, we teach men... SCRIPTURE TEACHES US TO FEAR AND TREMBLE before God. If you love Him, you would...

Taylor, you hate and despise the Christ that would send the incorrigible to everlasting punishment..DON'T YOU??

I didn't say God "delights" in the everlasting punishment of the wicked, nor more than I delight in the execution of a criminal...IT'S A MATTER OF JUSTICE.

Of course, I realize that God will have the "ultimate judgment".. but my friend, you are PRESUPPOSING UPON GOD, you are "ASSUMING" that God doesn't really care what truth is.

Now, let's see you tell me...what is death, is it..

1. Soul Sleep

or

2. Annihilation

Which one????

And...

Is there any other meaning, ie definition as far as you know in scripture where death is spoken of and has neither connotation?

[Taylor]

The problem is in your definition of Soul, but then all kinds of texts have been given to you but you don't see the beautiful semetry of the truth they loudly proclaim. I don't see any point in re-explaining it when you didnt' like the explanation the first time. I am not here to make you angry of frustrated but just to present truth which I and many others have done but you are still not seeing it. That is your right and your perogative. I would never want to force you to believe as I do, even if it is Biblical. God is a God who gives us the right to choose. He didn't make us robots.

I don't hate Christ at all, that would be impossible. I LOVE the God, the Christ, the Jesus of the Bible. (At least you phrased it in a question..though it still felt every much like an accusation.) I just know that MANY have walked away from God eternally becuase of the view that God tortures and keeps on torturing forever and I don't blame them for that. One can't truely love and trust someone who tortures. But one can love and trust someone who gets rid of sin forever so it can't raise it's ugly head again.

Under no circumstances do I presupose the God doesn't care about Truth. I care very much about truth, that is why I believe what I believe, because it is found deeply rooted and grounded in the clear teachings of the Bible.

Even if God did torture sinners, which the Bible is clear he does not, I wouldn't hate Him. I don't hate Sadam Hussein or Hitler or Pol Pot, but I also don't love them, because perfect Love casts out fear.

Fear in the Bible has two different connotations..one is fear...shake in your boots and one is repect. You can't love someone you are afraid of you and you can be afraid of someone you love. It's just that simple.

Justice has much more to do with getting rid of sin, not just the sinner, but yes the sinner who chooses to walk away from God will be burned but not tortured. Justice demands a complete end, not torture. Torture achieves nothing except torture. The sinner would learn nothing from it, could not change the outcome, and it won't keep the saints from rebelling again. They will be kept from rebelling again, because they Love God so much they can't imagine an eternity without Him.