Life After Death???

[True-believer]

A very dear friend of mine passed away the tuesday before and we had the funeral yesterday tuesday...

At the funeral the baptist pastor was going on about her spirit is now in heaven with Jesus .

When Jesus returns in His 2nd Coming, the spirits of the dead in Christ will return to the body from heaven and be transformed and receive immortal bodies.

Does that make sense Biblically?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Any suggestions???????

[olger]

Absolute nonsense. Heard the same thing yesterday.

og

[BobRyan]

A very dear friend of mine passed away the tuesday before and we had the funeral yesterday tuesday...

At the funeral the baptist pastor was going on about her spirit is now in heaven with Jesus .

When Jesus returns in His 2nd Coming, the spirits of the dead in Christ will return to the body from heaven and be transformed and receive immortal bodies.

Does that make sense Biblically?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Any suggestions???????

A couple.

1. Eccl 9:4-5 The dead know nothing

2. Ps 146:4 "in that very day his thoughts perish"

3. 1Thess 4 "regarding those who HAVE fallen asleep... the DEAD in Christ will rise first"

4. Matt 22 "God is not the God of the DEAD"

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: True-believer

A very dear friend of mine passed away the tuesday before and we had the funeral yesterday tuesday...

At the funeral the baptist pastor was going on about her spirit is now in heaven with Jesus .

When Jesus returns in His 2nd Coming, the spirits of the dead in Christ will return to the body from heaven and be transformed and receive immortal bodies.

Does that make sense Biblically?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Any suggestions???????

A couple.

1. Eccl 9:4-5 The dead know nothing

2. Ps 146:4 "in that very day his thoughts perish"

3. 1Thess 4 "regarding those who HAVE fallen asleep... the DEAD in Christ will rise first"

4. Matt 22 "God is not the God of the DEAD"

in Christ,

Bob

And if they don't understand the above texts ... they could try some common sense.

[melvin mccarty]

It all depends on how you view the word spirit. I see it as the record of my life and a copy of my DNA and any other pertinent data...but we have been over this before. Possibly "They" are more nearly correct than "We' are....mel

[guibox]

When Jesus returns in His 2nd Coming, the spirits of the dead in Christ will return to the body from heaven and be transformed and receive immortal bodies.

Does that make sense Biblically??

Any suggestions?

Yes, this argument is mostly based on 1 Thessalonians 4:14 that says 'Even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him'.

However, taking this verse away, people just don't see how illogical this interpretation is and how this makes Paul's words completely redundant in trying to explain the importance and nature of what resurrection is.

Let's look at this 'will God bring with Him'

This interpretation (that my soul will be reunited with my body) brings up a few problems:

1) The resurrection is redundant if our souls are already living. In 1 Corinthians 15:22 says, 'As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive'. We are not 'made alive' if all we are doing is clothing what is already living in a shell.

2) This makes the phrase ‘Those that sleep in Jesus’ completely contradictory for they are not sleeping, but awake as ‘souls’

3) It ignores the fact that it is Christ the Son that comes to the earth, not God the Father. To say that "God will bring the souls with Christ" means that Christ is a following participant being brought with God like the righteous souls.

To understand this verse as Christ bringing the souls from heaven we ignore the usage and importance of the text before:

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him – vs 13, 14

Verse 14 is a continuing thought that reiterates the thought from verse 13. If we believe that Jesus died and rose again….even so (or as some Bibles rightly translate it, ‘in the same manner of’) them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Christ (in the same manner). Acts Chapter 2 shows us that it was the power of the Father that raised Christ:

Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that he should be held it. – Acts 2:24

So as Christ died and rose, so also by the power of God, will those that sleep in Christ rise with Him (Christ). We are tied to the resurrection of Christ.

Every man in their own order, Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are His at his coming – 1 Corinthians 15:23

I am usually loath to refer to paraphrase bibles for doctrinal study. I find they are good for devotional worship but not too accurate with doctrines. However, after I came to this conclusion on this verse, I decided to look in the Message Bible. Guess what it said?

“Since Jesus died and broke loose from the grave, God will most certainly bring back to life those who died in Jesus.”

A paraphrase got it better then the King James translation! Go figure!

[Robert]

The inability of the SDA to see this is not so much that they can't, they could BUT IT IS A WILLFUL TURNING OF THE EYES FROM THE EXPLICIT TRUTH IN ORDER TO FOLLOW THE FALSE TEACHINGS BY THEIR SELF-PROCLAIMED PROPHETESS.

Hey...I don't even attend any church and if you ask John he will tell you I question EGW's writings much of the time. Given that, what do you do with my view that agrees with SDA?

There is no immorality in fallen mankind. There is nothing in him that is righteous - in him there's nothing good. So to say that mankind is immortal is to state that he is good. This must be denounced as legalism!!!

Matt 19:17 "there is none good but one, that is, God"

Romans 3:11 "There is none righteous, no, not one: ...12...there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

[Woody]

Quote:

The inability of the SDA to see this is not so much that they can't, they could BUT IT IS A WILLFUL TURNING OF THE EYES FROM THE EXPLICIT TRUTH IN ORDER TO FOLLOW THE FALSE TEACHINGS BY THEIR SELF-PROCLAIMED PROPHETESS.

Well ... in part one would have to look at what is meant by WILLFUL. If we look at how our prophet defines willful ... you might have a case. But then I am not sure you will accept her definition. In that case ... I might have to disagree with you. I am not one to believe everything our prophet says unless it agrees with scripture. And besides .... EGW did not establish this doctrine. So I think your statement has some holes.

If a definition of 'willful' is needed. Here in EGW we can see that 'willful' includes even when you don't know something and are 'ignorant' of it.

"It is willful sin in them to be ignorant of the laws of health or indifferent to them, for they are looked up to as wise above other men. This is especially true of the physician, who is entrusted with human life. He is expected to indulge in no habit that will weaken the life forces. ." . . Ellen White in CH 322

[True-believer]

so, do sda's believe in "Soul-Sleep"???

I know that sda's never use the term, but non-sda's do use the term to say that sda's believe it... so thats why I'm asking... even though sda's don't use the term... do you's still teach in "Soul-Sleep"???

[BobRyan]

Soul sleep - yes.

[BobRyan]

It all depends on how you view the word spirit. I see it as the record of my life and a copy of my DNA and any other pertinent data...but we have been over this before. Possibly "They" are more nearly correct than "We' are....mel

As it turns out - we do not have soul and spirit "in a test tube" as the box and nails illustration would have presumed. All we know is that when the spirit is put back into a physical body (even if that body is a very DIFFERENT one than it was in before) the result is that the SAME PERSON is being brought to life -- not simply "a very good copy".

So yes -- soul sleep.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

If a definition of 'willful' is needed. Here in EGW we can see that 'willful' includes even when you don't know something and are 'ignorant' of it.

"It is willful sin in them to be ignorant of the laws of health or indifferent to them, for they are looked up to as wise above other men. This is especially true of the physician, who is entrusted with human life. He is expected to indulge in no habit that will weaken the life forces. ." . . Ellen White in CH 322

It is willful because they are willfully ignorant. They have opportunity to know and they refuse to know. The Bible says the same thing about those who are willingly ignorant of the truth.

For instance, someone refuses to study the Bible because they know that they would be responsible for what they know. I've heard people say this, and Ellen White writes about this kind of ignorance. You are right, it is willful sin to be ignorant in this way.

However, it is not willful sin to be genuinely ignorant.

In the case of the laws of health, Ellen White is talking about highly educated people, including doctors, who indulge in violation of the laws of health when they've had plenty of opportunity to know better. That is different from people who have had no opportunity to know these things. For them, therefore, it is not willful sin.

[Woody]

Quote:

It is willful because they are willfully ignorant. They have opportunity to know and they refuse to know. The Bible says the same thing about those who are willingly ignorant of the truth.

With this I fully agree. This is what I have been trying to state for a long time with this issue. There is no excuse to sin. We have all the resources of Heaven at our disposal. The same applies to knowledge. If we sin ... it is willful. If we don't know God as is our privilege to know God ... we sin. The knowledge is there for us. All we have to do is to open the book.And Invite the Spirt. If we don't then we willfully sin by neglect.

Quote:

However, it is not willful sin to be genuinely ignorant.

It is not possible to be genuinely ignorant. For we are each to respond as God has approached us. For HE will draw ALL men unto Him. Since HE is doing the drawing ... HE will do the judging . But, He determines what way HE approaches people. And it does vary.

[melvin mccarty]

Ya I suppose but not sleeping in their graves! "Sleeping" some place in Heaven...mel

[jasd]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: jasd

1 Pet 3:18 ... being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison (5438 phylake);

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient , when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, ...

Though “destroyed” from “the face of the earth” – they remain accessible to the spirit of Jesus Christ – who went to them that He might preach.

>>There are a few problems with your interpretation of 1 Peter 3, jasd.

First of all, where in the Bible other than this passage does it talk about Jesus being consciously awake in Hades/Sheol and preaching to disembodied spirits.<<

Aside from the fact that the passage unequivocally informs us that Jesus Christ did preach to the spirits – we do not know the definitive state of His pirit-invigorated awareness entailed.

Additionally, the above is a precept (Isa 28:10) with Luke 23:43 providing another precept...

We may do well to remember – that it is not always necessary to exposit with reliance upon redundancies; for instance,

where else, other than in 1 Corinthian 10:2 can one verify the validity of infant baptism?

>>Such a concept (which seems so important to the salvation process) is foreign elsewhere in the Bible and the NT writers, especially Paul, are completely silent on such a concept,<<

Not so, guibox. It is St Paul who most exposits the matter of sentience apart from its tabernacle. An example may be found in 2 Corinthians 12:2 “I knew a man...”

>>...even with all the discourses on the death and resurrection of Christ.<,

Not having a firm grasp upon the more mundane matters as concerns the resurrection of Jesus Christ – it is hardly to be expected that we are sufficiently grounded to offer this or that about the more esoteric aspects of His entombment.

>>Second, you are assuming that the 'spirits in prison' mean 'disembodied souls in Hades'. Nowhere is this linguistic connection observed in this passage.<<

Please, spirits are spirits and prison is prison – whether one thinks Hades is that spoken of in 1 Peter – is a personal prerogative; however, one must not forget that

(#5438 phylake) may be translated guarded. I ask again, why would it be necessary to guard nothing?

>>Third, where in the entire bible are we told that anybody will have a second chance?<<

What would you say to the fact that they did not even receive a first chance? Anyway, what is occurring on earth during the millennium?

>>Fourth, why is it only the anti-deluvian spirits that get a second chance and not anybody else before Christ?<<

Genesis 6, parsed very carefully, reveals several things – first, Gd intended to destroy all living flesh from upon the face of the earth (exception noted); no mention of Gd-through the HS-through Jesus Christ-through Noah preaching...; the “perfection” of Noah concerned his genealogical bloodline – as opposed to the rest of mankind (or his amalgamated progeny).

The summary judgement/destruction of mankind without recourse, without clemency – would not have provided man even –his ‘first chance’.

Jesus Christ, according to St Peter would have rectified that situation. Furthermore,

I suggest that man will receive more than “second chance” from whom, we all concur, is a Gd whose bowels are of mercy. Gd is forthright in His statements re Himself vis-à-vis our earthly fathers. Given that,

what father amongst us wills and does – consign his wayward children to the pain of cremation for the sin of being conceived, born, and unsuccessfully resisting temptation? Some of us haven’t the fiber to live as sinlessly as did Jesus Christ – and depend upon the salvific faith of and in Jesus Christ. Those same ‘some of us’ can only be drawn to salvation as Gd draws.

St Paul, in referencing the ‘saved’ uses the term tagma, which denotes ‘by order’ – as used militarily – and the number of orders that suggests.

[jasd]

Attn: note to John317, moderator...

Can you not fix the format of this page?

[jasd]

>>Fifth, you ignore the important connection between vs 18 and 20 which is the Spirit spoken of in vs 19. However, vs 18 and vs 20 are the not the same continuing concept. The two verses are speaking of two different things linked together by their common thread: The Holy Spirit. Vs 20 stands out like a sore thumb in explanation and relevance according to what you are saying.<<

The fact of note in the passage may easily be taken as...

1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison (#5438 phylake).

There werere spirits in prison or guarded. Again, why guard nothingness? the insensate? the sleeping?

Quote:

Quote:

1 Pet 3:18 ... being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

>>This verse tells us that Christ was 'quickened by the Spirit'.<<

Let’s not forget...

YLT 1 Pet 3:18 ...and having been made alive in the spirit,

Note: “by the Spirit” can be equally translated as “in the spirit”; that is, either with the high-cast letter ‘S’, or otherwise, as is so often translated – with the lower-case ‘s’. However, the intent of those translators of the KJV who elected to high-cast the ‘S’ may have intended it to represent Jesus Christ’s Spirit – rather than the third member of the Trinity. We can’t of a certainty ascertain that; however, “in the pirit” – representing the pirit of Jesus Christ more harmonizes with the rest of the passage.

>>The Spirit power gave Christ the resurrection. The entire Godhead was involved in the resurrection of Christ.<<

But we speak of the pre-resurrection and not the “resurrection”.

Quote:

Quote:guibox

Now here is the connecting thought...

Quote:

1 Pet 3:19 By which also

>>In other words, by this SAME Spirit that 'quickened Christ'<<

Okay, you make my argument.

Quote:

Quote:

He went and preached unto the spirits in prison (5438 phylake)

The only other way one might attempt to exegete the fact that the text addresses the subject “spirits in prison” – is to introduce the Nephalim at this point...

Quote:

Quote:

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient , when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, ...

>>The 'spirits in prison' were the anti-deluvians locked in the prison of unbelief.<<

Y’think? I submit Occam’s razor.

>>He came to 'set the prisoners free'.<<

Remember that (#5438 phylake) carries with it the sense both of ‘prison’ and ‘guarded’. Is your neighour, as a “prisoner of unbelief” – under guard?

>>Do you think this only means physically jailed criminals?<<

No, St Peter spoke of “spirits”.

>>If what you are saying is true, that Christ preached in Hades, then ONLY those before the flood got this opportunity.

Why?<<

Genesis 6, parsed very carefully, reveals several things – first, Gd intended to destroy all living flesh from upon the face of the earth (exception noted); no mention of Gd-through the HS-through Jesus Christ-through Noah preaching...; the “perfection” of Noah concerned his genealogical bloodline – as opposed to the rest of mankind (or his amalgamated progeny).

The summary judgement/destruction of mankind without recourse, without clemency – would not have provided man even –his ‘first chance’.

Jesus Christ, according to St Peter would have rectified that situation.

>>Do you not think ALL of the 'spirits' that were disobedient in ages past don't get a second chance?<<

Gd compares Himself to our earthly father. Are you a father? Would you consign your son to eternal annihilation for a weakness of his flesh? Either Gd is righteous or He is a liar. And,

why not a second chance? a third chance? a fourth? fifth? seventy times seven chances? more?

Fear not him who destroys the body temple...

[BobRyan]

Ya I suppose but not sleeping in their graves! "Sleeping" some place in Heaven...mel

True -- though Daniel 12 calls it "sleep in the dust" -- but the point is that the "spirit goes back to God who gave it" and is THERE in a dormant state. The dust that remains here - is nothing but dust and can be blown by the wind or tossed into the sea - it does not matter. The dust itself is not sleeping dust.

We do not believe in dust-sleep.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: True-believer

When Jesus returns in His 2nd Coming, the spirits of the dead in Christ will return to the body from heaven and be transformed and receive immortal bodies.

Does that make sense Biblically??

Any suggestions?

Yes, this argument is mostly based on 1 Thessalonians 4:14 that says 'Even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him'.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: melvin mccarty

Ya I suppose but not sleeping in their graves! "Sleeping" some place in Heaven...mel

True -- though Daniel 12 calls it "sleep in the dust" -- but the point is that the "spirit goes back to God who gave it" and is THERE in a dormant state. The dust that remains here - is nothing but dust and can be blown by the wind or tossed into the sea - it does not matter. The dust itself is not sleeping dust.

We do not believe in dust-sleep.

As I understand the Bible, the dead person simply does not exist between death and the resurrection.

My father, who died about a year ago, does exist at this time except as a memory. He is not with God in a dormant state. God will bring him back to life in the resurrection of the just. It is not a matter of bringing him back from someplace. It is a matter of bringing him back to life.

Illustration--

Light bulb (PLUS) Electricity (EQUALS) Light

When the Electricity leaves the light bulb, the light leaves the bulb.

This is the same as the breath of life leaving our bodies. We die and the life leaves the body. Where is the life? Nowhere. it is gone.

Where is the light? Nowhere. The light does not exist. As the light exists only when the electricity is in contact with the bulb, so the life exists only when the breath of life is in the body.

This is also the way the Bible portrays it. When the breath of life leaves the body, at that time life and thought ceases and people return to dust.

[melvin mccarty]

That's actually a good illustration in a way

The switch is off but the logic and wiring diagram is still there and will be reactivated. I believe that information is on file in heaven and I cannot understand the blind opposition to that concept! ...mel

[Haldog]

.... and I cannot understand the blind opposition to that concept! ...mel

The opposition has to do with the fact that the bible doesn't support your theory, simple as that.

[Planey]

Originally Posted By: melvin mccarty

.... and I cannot understand the blind opposition to that concept! ...mel

The opposition has to do with the fact that the bible doesn't support your theory, simple as that.

It not only supports this concept but a large number of texts that give evidence of this support have already been posted earlier in this very thread.

Graeme

[BobRyan]

That's actually a good illustration in a way

The switch is off but the logic and wiring diagram is still there and will be reactivated. I believe that information is on file in heaven and I cannot understand the blind opposition to that concept! ...mel

I agree with you - but I believe the Bible takes it even farther. I can program two different machines with the exact same logic and data. They are still two machines -- not one. When God says that the "spirit returns to God who gave it" in Eccl 12 and when He says in Matt 10:27-28 "They destroy the body but can NOT destroy the soul" in the first death... and when He say "our friend Lazarus (i.e the PERSON) SLEEPS" in John 11 - he points to the "continued existence of the PERSON" not simply a very good data set that can be programmed into another person.

Every 7 years your cell material is completely replaced -- but you are still the same "person" not another person. The person transcends the material.

It is the PERSON that is taken to heaven in a dormant state - that we call "the spirit". It is the PERSON that is placed into a new body at the resurrection. The PERSON is not "destroyed" when the body is killed in the first death. The person is only destroyed in the Lake of fire "God is able to destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28.

This is the only view that will stand up to the "hard questions" asked by non-SDAs on this point. And it is the most accurate.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: jasd

1 Pet 3:18 ... being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison (5438 phylake);

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient , when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, ...

Though “destroyed” from “the face of the earth” – they remain accessible to the spirit of Jesus Christ – who went to them that He might preach.

>>There are a few problems with your interpretation of 1 Peter 3, jasd.

First of all, where in the Bible other than this passage does it talk about Jesus being consciously awake in Hades/Sheol and preaching to disembodied spirits.<<

Aside from the fact that the passage unequivocally informs us that Jesus Christ did preach to the spirits – we do not know the definitive state of His pirit-invigorated awareness entailed.

1. 1 Peter 3 says that Jesus preached SPECIFICALLY - to wicked who lived at the time of Noah and perached to them WHEN Noah was building the ark. Indeed Noah was himself called a "preacher of righteousness" and was one of those 1Peter 1 prophets to whom Peter said "the Spirit of Christ" was witnessing during their lifetime.

2. 1 Peter 3 does not say that Jesus did this while dead.

3. 1 Peter 3 says that Jesus did this in the Spirit - through the Holy Spirit.

4. 1 Peter 1 - sets the context for that by saying that all during the Old Testament "the SPIRIT OF CHRIST" was in the Holy Prophets of old revealing the same Gospel message to them - as we have today.

in Christ,

Bob