Life After Death???

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

I never argue that "sleep means conscious". It means unconsious.

[/quote']

OK, good point. But you must believe that the "spirit" which returns to God is in some sense an individual entity and that it is kept alive, right? "Dormant" implies that something is not dead but kept inactive and unconscious.

The idea that we are merely "dormant" after the death of the body still seems to contradict Scripture which says that when we die, the whole person dies.

When the bible says we sleep and we are dead, that can be read to mean that we are unconscious, that we are not "reasoning".

But sleep does not mean a negation of existance.

It means a suspension of awareness.

When we sleep, (without dreams), then we are aware of nothing, but we have not ceased to exist.

My personal view is that when the spirit returns to God, it holds a blueprint of our characters, or our personality and thoughts.

That is not to say that it is self existant, but rather that God holds that information in His Spirit.

As it is the Spirit that gives life to all, can we not say that we have a "portion" of that Spirit in us? (Just sharing some thoughts, not saying I accept this position).

Twilight.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

It is an interesting subject which I did go through quite exhaustively once, but would have to dig my study out again.

I am of the personal conviction that we have a spirit, that it is the gift of God, but it is a little more personal than a "breath" from God.

Not that it is immortal.

But I wonder if us adventists have thrown the baby out with the bathwater on this one.

God bless,

Twilight.

indeed. When someone "gets the breath knocked out of them" even SDAs can not bring themsevles to say "well then they must have been resurrected".

Infact - when someone dies - even SDAs have no expectation at all that a puff of "breath" goes zipping up through the atmosphere and into outer space on it's way to God.

Christ was Correct in Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are UNABLE to kill the soul".

Christ was correct in John 11 "Our friend Lazarus SLEEPS"

Christ is correct in 1Thess 4 "I do not want you to be unninformed about those who ARE asleep"

1Thess 4

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Christ said "into Thy Hands I commend my Spirit" as if that actually had meaning -- indeed it does.

2Cor 5:1-8 makes it clear that the unclothed state "of the person" is the state of death. The "person" exists - but in an unclothed state without EITHER the decaying "earthly tent" and without the "eternal heavenly tent".

And the "meaning" is that you no longer need this old body at the resurrection "to still be the same YOU". In fact YOU can get an entirely NEW body because that which makes YOU -- YOU has nothing to do with the body that "you now have".

in Christ,

Bob

Praise God for those thoughts, thank you.

Twilight

[jasd]

>>How could the soul of a dead person not be immortal if it is alive in heaven?<<

Immortal soul?

Are the prerogatives of the one able to destroy the soul – at any time – diminished? Seems tah me that as concerns the soul – it exists at will... So,

what happens when the spirit is cleaved from the soul? immeasurable energies with new form? or absolute annihilation?

[John317]

When the bible says we sleep and we are dead, that can be read to mean that we are unconscious, that we are not "reasoning".

But sleep does not mean a negation of existance.

That is because when we sleep our brain is still working. We are still breathing. Our heart is still beating.

When we are dead, none of those things are happening. When we are dead, we have no breath of life in us. The Bible says that when the breath of life leaves us, our thoughts cease. It says we return to dust.

There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that we continue to exist as individuals after we return to dust. It doesn't say that anything about mankind survives death. WE have no immortal parts.

Quote:

My personal view is that when the spirit returns to God, it holds a blueprint of our characters, or our personality and thoughts.

What is your best biblical defense for this personal view?

[Planey]

My personal view is that when the spirit returns to God, it holds a blueprint of our characters, or our personality and thoughts.

Why would God need a "blueprint" of our characters? So He could re-create us at the resurrection?

If God knows every detail of us now, while we are alive (Luke 12:7), why would He need such a blueprint? Do you think He might forget some details so He keeps a 'database of souls' to help Him in case He finds some tricky little facts have slipped His mind?

I don't think so.

So if such a blueprint is neither necessary nor hinted at in the Bible, I will take the Bible at its word and believe that no part of what makes me "me" will continue after my certain demise.

Graeme

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

My personal view is that when the spirit returns to God, it holds a blueprint of our characters, or our personality and thoughts.

Why would God need a "blueprint" of our characters? So He could re-create us at the resurrection?

If God knows every detail of us now, while we are alive (Luke 12:7), why would He need such a blueprint? Do you think He might forget some details so He keeps a 'database of souls' to help Him in case He finds some tricky little facts have slipped His mind?

I don't think so.

So if such a blueprint is neither necessary nor hinted at in the Bible, I will take the Bible at its word and believe that no part of what makes me "me" will continue after my certain demise.

Graeme

I will study this belief of mine more at some point.

You are right to challenge it, as I cannot point specifically to the bible to support it.

God bless,

Mark

[Twilight]

I will have to look at this again my friend, hopefully soon.

You are correct to ask for the biblical position.

God bless,

Twilight.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

My personal view is that when the spirit returns to God, it holds a blueprint of our characters, or our personality and thoughts.

Why would God need a "blueprint" of our characters? So He could re-create us at the resurrection?

If God knows every detail of us now, while we are alive (Luke 12:7), why would He need such a blueprint? Do you think He might forget some details so He keeps a 'database of souls' to help Him in case He finds some tricky little facts have slipped His mind?

I don't think so.

So if such a blueprint is neither necessary nor hinted at in the Bible, I will take the Bible at its word and believe that no part of what makes me "me" will continue after my certain demise.

Graeme

The problem with the blueprint idea is that it allows you to "build another one" but does not give you the "SAME" one.

If your house burns down and then you "build another one" just like the old one -- you built TWO HOUSES -- you did not "resurrect an old one" because the old one is still burned to ashes.

That is the problem with simply leaving it as a blue print.

In resurrection there is nothing that NEEDS to be left of the OLD body because as 2Cor 5:1-4 says - a body is something that you HAVE - it is not what you ARE.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that we continue to exist as individuals after we return to dust.

[John317]

I will have to look at this again my friend, hopefully soon.

You are correct to ask for the biblical position.

God bless,

Twilight.

I agree with you about the blueprint, but I believe that is in God's mind or memory (to put it in a human sense).

Just think, if He knows when every sparrow falls and if He knows the number of the hairs on each of our heads-- not to mention holding together the entire universe, and knowing all the millions of other planets-- why would it be so hard for Him to remake us on the basis of a blueprint in His memory?

Is there anything too hard for our God?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Matt 10:27 "do not fear those who kill the body BUT are UNNABLE to kill the soul".

in Christ' date='

Bob[/quote']

What does it mean to say people can't kill the "soul" but God can and will? What is that "soul" He speaks of?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I will have to look at this again my friend, hopefully soon.

You are correct to ask for the biblical position.

God bless,

Twilight.

I agree with you about the blueprint, but I believe that is in God's mind or memory (to put it in a human sense).

Just think, if He knows when every sparrow falls and if He knows the number of the hairs on each of our heads-- not to mention holding together the entire universe, and knowing all the millions of other planets-- why would it be so hard for Him to remake us on the basis of a blueprint in His memory?

Is there anything too hard for our God?

Just to explore that idea a little more?

Maybe the blueprint returns in the spirit he gave us?

Again, not something I can show from the bible right now, but just a thought, so please take it as such.

Twilight

[oldsailor29]

Life after death?

Most of the Bible speaks of some consciousness in death.

[John317]

Life after death?

Most of the Bible speaks of some consciousness in death.

You mean like, "The dead know nothing," and "the dead do not praise the Lord," etc.?

Do you believe the Bible teaches consistently on this topic? Or can you find equally good evidence for either view?

What is the weight of evidence in the Bible as regards what happens to humans when they die?

[John317]

Life after death?

Most of the Bible speaks of some consciousness in death.

Don't you think the Bible speaks a lot about UNconsciousness in death?

How aware and conscious are those who are asleep? I know that when I'm really asleep I don't know anything about the passage of time or about what is going on around me. Isn't that why the doctors put people to sleep during surgery? Or do they do it so they will know more during their surgery?

[Robert]

All false doctrines have one purpose: To attack the gospel of Jesus Christ. That's the point of view, John, you need to argue from.

As you have stated, Christ was God, but He was also "of the seed of David." He assumed "our" life at the incarnation right up to the resurrection where He came forth with a glorified humanity free from all traces of sin.

Now here's where "the immortality of the soul" attacks the gospel:

Romans 5:10 states, "When we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him [God] through the death of his Son..."

Did the humanity that Christ assumed die or did it partially die? The answer is humanity died. If our humanity did not die "in Christ" then we were not reconciled to God. What does that leave? We must work our way into heaven! I mean if Christ didn't die then we were not justified before God's law and therefore we must justify ourselves.

See how it attacks the gospel? That's the point you need to stress, in my humble opinion!

Rob

[John317]

All false doctrines have one purpose: To attack the gospel of Jesus Christ. That's the point of view, John, you need to argue from.

.....

See how it attacks the gospel? That's the point you need to stress, in my humble opinion!

Yes, I do it and thank you for that.

Of course, there are many people who are convinced they understand and believe the gospel, yet who go on believing in the immortality of the soul.

Have you tried to convinced Mr. Humble with that argument? If so, what are the results?

The problem is that many people will not be able to see the perfect logic of your argument. I certainly do, however.

Another argument from the SDA-- and biblical-- viewpoint is that if people are already enjoying heaven or being punished in hell, what sense does it make to have a judgment, or how seriously can we take the judgment if billions have already gone to their reward?

[Robert]

Have you tried to convinced Mr. Humble with that argument? If so, what are the results?

He ignores me, as do others who believe this way. I think that, conscientiously, they see my point. Well, they need to debate me (not because I'm all that) and prove me wrong. Again, this doctrine is one of the most legalistic teaching ever invented by the man of sin. If Christ didn't die then we were not reconciled to God. If not, then one must justify himself through good works.

Now, of course, I'm not against good works, but no one will ever enter heaven because of his righteousness. Good works are demonstrative, not meritorious.

Rob

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

Life after death?

Most of the Bible speaks of some consciousness in death.

You mean like, "The dead know nothing," and "the dead do not praise the Lord," etc.?

Do you believe the Bible teaches consistently on this topic? Or can you find equally good evidence for either view?

What is the weight of evidence in the Bible as regards what happens to humans when they die?

[John317]

I'm continuing to read your interesting post. I've seen the same things written in several books before, having taken courses in the Bible as literature and read a number of books by people who believe in the immortality of the soul.

There is no doubt that the ancient Hebrews were influenced in their notions of Sheol by the common views of death found among the nations that surrounded Israel. So I am not surprised that they speak of the earth being on pillars and of Sheol being a place under the earth.

However, their views of death are very different from all the other ancient people, all of whom believed in the immortality of the soul and in spirits of the dead who are fully aware of what is happening on earth, and who make communication with the living. For instance, there is a definite and clear difference between the Greeks and the Hebrews as regards the nature of man. Aristotle wrote about the immortality the soul, as did Plato. By contrast the Bible says nothing about humans or the soul being immortal. Only God has immortality. Humans seek for it and God will give it as a gift to those who are saved. Humans, therefore, obviously are not immortal now.

In other nations, the dead are holy. In Israel, according the Bible, the dead are taboo and cause a person to be ritually unclean. Therefore the Bible discourages anyone from thinking of the dead as holy.

In viewing all these things about death, one question remains: what is it about the human being that is immortal, i.e., that survives death? The Genesis creation narrative gives us absolutely no reason to believe that God made us with anything that lives after the death of the person.

If you see this differently, can you show Bible evidence that humans continue to live after the death of the body? Can you show what part of us continues to live?

[oldsailor29]

I'm continuing to read your interesting post. I've seen the same things written in several books before, having taken courses in the Bible as literature and read a number of books by people who believe in the immortality of the soul.

There is no doubt that the ancient Hebrews were influenced in their notions of Sheol by the common views of death found among the nations that surrounded Israel. So I am not surprised that they speak of the earth being on pillars and of Sheol being a place under the earth.

However, their views of death are very different from all the other ancient people, all of whom believed in the immortality of the soul and in spirits of the dead who are fully aware of what is happening on earth, and who make communication with the living. For instance, there is a definite and clear difference between the Greeks and the Hebrews as regards the nature of man. Aristotle wrote about the immortality the soul, as did Plato. By contrast the Bible says nothing about humans or the soul being immortal. Only God has immortality. Humans seek for it and God will give it as a gift to those who are saved. Humans, therefore, obviously are not immortal now.

In other nations, the dead are holy. In Israel, according the Bible, the dead are taboo and cause a person to be ritually unclean. Therefore the Bible discourages anyone from thinking of the dead as holy.

In viewing all these things about death, one question remains: what is it about the human being that is immortal, i.e., that survives death? The Genesis creation narrative gives us absolutely no reason to believe that God made us with anything that lives after the death of the person.

If you see this differently, can you show Bible evidence that humans continue to live after the death of the body? Can you show what part of us continues to live?

If we want to get out of the Bible that which the writers put into it, then we must use methods of interpretation which offer greater insight than homilies.

From the Bible, I have quoted passages that say the soul forgets, the soul hears, the soul cries out, and the souls of some in Sheol have expressed happiness when their enemies joined them. Most Bible texts about death run along the same lines. Therefore my original statement that most of the Bible teaches consciousness in death stands. If the creation stories had said anything about death, I would have quoted them.

The book of Ecclesiastes runs contrary, but it is a book which expounds upon what the world is like without God. And Job may contain some different views, but they were all denied by God Himself in chapters 38-41.

If we deny all exegesis, then we also have no analogies. Then, unless we receive visions from God ourselves, all we have left are homilies. And when we reason together about what the Bible says in our western way, a way which is foreign to the entire Bible, then we get all sorts of strange beliefs which have nothing to do with what the Bible actually means.

[Robert]

.... most of the Bible teaches consciousness in death stands.

Then Christ, as the Son of Man, really didn't die "the curse of the law"? IF that's the case then you are in a hopeless state because if Christ didn't die then you were not justified unto life. Hence, you must justify yourself! That is an impossibility!!!

Rob

[oldsailor29]

Quote:

Then Christ, as the Son of Man, really didn't die "the curse of the law"? IF that's the case then you are in a hopeless state because if Christ didn't die then you were not justified unto life. Hence, you must justify yourself! That is an impossibility!!!

Rob

I don't know, Rob. I can't quite follow your line of reasoning. I reckon I'm not quite sharp enough to connect those dots.

I have no doubt that our creator died for our sins. And I don't know anything about death myself. I just know that most of the Bible says that our souls or our spirits go to Sheol. Our breath goes to God, and one place where God is is Sheol(Psalm 139). The dead hear the voice of God and arise from their graves. I didn't make any of this up myself. It is all Biblical. And the Bible says that Jesus died for our sins, and it also says that the souls of the martyrs cry from under the altar. So was the death of Jesus the same as the death of those other martyrs? I don't know, but I am certainly not prepared to agree that there is any way the death of Jesus was not effective or didn't serve its purpose.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

and it also says that the souls of the martyrs cry from under the altar.

Are we to take that as literal? Just as Jesus says eat my flesh, and drink my blood. Are we to take these things literal? Or perhaps we should understand them in a spiritual sense?

Just like, is the Israel of today Gods true people? In a spiritual sense yes, but literal state of Israel? I would say no.

[oldsailor29]

Quote:

and it also says that the souls of the martyrs cry from under the altar.

Are we to take that as literal? Just as Jesus says eat my flesh, and drink my blood. Are we to take these things literal? Or perhaps we should understand them in a spiritual sense?

Just like, is the Israel of today Gods true people? In a spiritual sense yes, but literal state of Israel? I would say no.

Of course the souls in Sheol are spiritual and not physical, but are spiritual beings not literal, are they not real?

"Drink my blood and eat my flesh" means that we should fill our minds with the teachings of Jesus, so that when we open our mouths upon the gospel, something spoken by Jesus will come out.

And BTW God's true chosen people today are Christians. Jesus Christ(God), the founder of Christianity, will lead us into the promised land.