Life After Death???

[BobRyan]

As I understand the Bible, the dead person simply does not exist between death and the resurrection.

My father, who died about a year ago, does exist at this time except as a memory. He is not with God in a dormant state. God will bring him back to life in the resurrection of the just. It is not a matter of bringing him back from someplace. It is a matter of bringing him back to life.

Illustration--

Light bulb (PLUS) Electricity (EQUALS) Light

When the Electricity leaves the light bulb, the light leaves the bulb.

This is the same as the breath of life leaving our bodies. We die and the life leaves the body. Where is the life? Nowhere. it is gone.

Where is the light? Nowhere. The light does not exist.

Your conclusion fits the illustration perfectly.

The illustration is flawed.

If it were true that the person "does not exist" then Jesus in John 11 would not say "Our friend Lazarus Sleeps" He would say "Our friend Lazarus no longer EXISTS. I go that he may once again EXIST". The OT would be changed from "slept with his fathers" to "no longer existed just as those before him no longer exist". Jesus in John 11 could not say "he who believes on me shall never die" for in fact -- they not only die -- they cease to exist at all in any form.

In Matt 10:28 Jesus would not say "Do not fear those who are able to kill the body but are not able to kill the soul" rather he would say "do not fear those who destroy both body and soul in the first death so that you no longer exist for someday God will cause them to once again EXIST. Rather fear Him who destroys both body and soul and THEN chooses not to ever cause you to once again EXIST"

When the Bible says "that a number SLEEP" 1Cor 11 it would need to be changed to say "a number no longer EXIST" just to fit the lightbulb and box-with-nails illustrations.

Our people have gone too far in coming up with those examples when all the really needed to do was make the case of "Dormant soul" in sleep rather than "destroy soul in the first death" and the case of "non-existent soul" which is clearly not the teaching of the Bible.

It pains me that some of our evangelists are stuck in a rut making that error in illustration that leaves our people likely to embrace an indefensible argument.

in Christ,

Bob

[melvin mccarty]

You are absolutely correct there Bob!......mel

[BobRyan]

Now see! We do agree on some things!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

As I understand the Bible, the dead person simply does not exist between death and the resurrection.

My father, who died about a year ago, does exist at this time except as a memory. He is not with God in a dormant state. God will bring him back to life in the resurrection of the just. It is not a matter of bringing him back from someplace. It is a matter of bringing him back to life.

Illustration--

Light bulb (PLUS) Electricity (EQUALS) Light

When the Electricity leaves the light bulb, the light leaves the bulb.

This is the same as the breath of life leaving our bodies. We die and the life leaves the body. Where is the life? Nowhere. it is gone.

Where is the light? Nowhere. The light does not exist.

Your conclusion fits the illustration perfectly.

The illustration is flawed.

If it were true that the person "does not exist" then Jesus in John 11 would not say "Our friend Lazarus Sleeps" He would say "Our friend Lazarus no longer EXISTS. I go that he may once again EXIST". The OT would be changed from "slept with his fathers" to "no longer existed just as those before him no longer exist". Jesus in John 11 could not say "he who believes on me shall never die" for in fact -- they not only die -- they cease to exist at all in any form.

In Matt 10:28 Jesus would not say "Do not fear those who are able to kill the body but are not able to kill the soul" rather he would say "do not fear those who destroy both body and soul in the first death so that you no longer exist for someday God will cause them to once again EXIST. Rather fear Him who destroys both body and soul and THEN chooses not to ever cause you to once again EXIST"

When the Bible says "that a number SLEEP" 1Cor 11 it would need to be changed to say "a number no longer EXIST" just to fit the lightbulb and box-with-nails illustrations.

Our people have gone too far in coming up with those examples when all the really needed to do was make the case of "Dormant soul" in sleep rather than "destroy soul in the first death" and the case of "non-existent soul" which is clearly not the teaching of the Bible.

It pains me that some of our evangelists are stuck in a rut making that error in illustration that leaves our people likely to embrace an indefensible argument.

Bob, nothing of the individual exists between death and the resurrection. The individual only exists as a living soul when the breath of life is in the body. Once the breath of life leaves the body, the life no longer exists any more than the light exists after the electricity leaves the bulb.

The breath that returns to God is not an individual entity. All breath returns to God, not simply that of the righteous but the breath of the wicked as well. We have to trust God completely to bring us back to life. We are nothing apart from God's creative act. No-thing.

The Bible teaches that we no longer exist when we die. We return to dust. We become what we were before God gave us life: dust. If we didn't exist before we were conceived and developed as a baby, we don't exist any more than that after our last breath and return to dust. See Gen. 3: 19.

We sleep in the grave, waiting for Christ to bring us back to life. Bringing us back to life is the same as bringing us back into existence. The man Jesus did not exist between his death and his resurrection.

We speak of His sleeping in the tomb only as a metaphor because an awakening would follow his death. Death was not the end. That is the same with us. Our sleeping does not mean that we continue to exist as persons. We are a corpse after death. An individual personality does not exist after death but only a dead soul. We call it sleeping only because we will be wakened by God, and not because something continues to exist. There is NO PART OF US that is immortal or not subject to death. Death is non-existence. ALL of us dies. Nothing of us survives death.

The process of death is precisely the same for people are it is for the animals. Apart from Christ, the same fate would await both man and beast. The only difference is that Christ died for us and will bring us back from death at the resurrection. See Ecc. 3: 19; 1 Cor. 15: 18.

[BobRyan]

Souls "come to life" in the resurrection. On that point all can agree.

But between death and resurrection they exist in a dormant state called sleep -

"13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

"

Those who "are asleep" is a very different concept from "those who do not exist". You have to "exist" to sleep.

Now let's look at the lightbulb and the electricity with the "where is the light" illustration. When you remove electricity from the bulb -- is "light sleeping"??? Not at all there is no light TO sleep.

The illustration is flawed. It goes beyond what can be defended from scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

The breath that returns to God is not an individual entity.

[John317]

Souls "come to life" in the resurrection. On that point all can agree.

But between death and resurrection they exist in a dormant state called sleep -

Where does the Bible say that as individuals we continue after death to exist in a "dormant state"?

The fact that it says the dead "sleep" in the grave does not mean we are in existence in the grave. It means we are dead in the grave.

If it wasn't for the coming resurrection, we would be dead in the grave exactly the same way that a dog is dead in the grave. Is a dog asleep when dead? No. Why not? Because it won't ever be resurrected.

Jesus did not say the dead body is in the grave but that something of the person which survives death exists somewhere else in a "dormant state."

What is the spirit? It is the breath. It is not an individual entity. It is not conscious. The Bible speaks of this breath as that which is in our nostrils. When this breath leaves us we die. ALL of us dies.

The breath returns to God, but this breath of life is no more an individual entity AFTER our death than it was BEFORE we were born.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Pastor Clarence Schilt postulated that the soul - that breath of life that each one of us had - goes back to God when a person dies, and that God takes care of that particular "breath of life" until the resurrection. Clarence knew there was no Biblical grounds for that particular theory, but it certainly made sense to me and to the rest of the congregation to whom he spoke.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Souls "come to life" in the resurrection. On that point all can agree.

But between death and resurrection they exist in a dormant state called sleep -

Where does the Bible say that as individuals we continue after death to exist in a "dormant state"?

The fact that it says the dead "sleep" in the grave does not mean we are in existence in the grave. It means we are dead in the grave.

If it wasn't for the coming resurrection, we would be dead in the grave exactly the same way that a dog is dead in the grave. Is a dog asleep when dead? No. Why not? Because it won't ever be resurrected.

Jesus did not say the dead body is in the grave but that something of the person which survives death exists somewhere else in a "dormant state."

What is the spirit? It is the breath. It is not an individual entity. It is not conscious. The Bible speaks of this breath as that which is in our nostrils. When this breath leaves us we die. ALL of us dies.

The breath returns to God, but this breath of life is no more an individual entity AFTER our death than it was BEFORE we were born.

This text would suggest consciousness:

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

God bless,

Twilight

[melvin mccarty]

To insist as you do that there is no more to a person after death than before conception is patently false and cannot be supported by scripure. Your zeal for the 28 is putting you in an untenable position as in "foot-in-mouth" disease. Sorry about that......mel

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The breath that returns to God is not an individual entity.

Where did the Bible ever tell us that it is not the essence of the individual? Answer - nowhere.

In fact Stephen says "Into thy hands I commend my spirit". Jesus says the same thing.

What is that "spirit"? Is it part of us that continues to live after death?

Stephen and Jesus were saying they were giving their lives into God's safe-keeping. They were trusting that God would bring them back to life. In that sense, our spirit is our character. See the use of "spirits" in Hebrews 12: 23.

But that is not saying that this "spirit" survives death. Nothing of us survives death. God told Adam, "YOU will return to dust." He did not tell Adam that some part of him will not return to dust.

Quote:

They know that they will exist in a dormant state during death. Paul in 2Cor 5 says that we exist in an unclothed state during death and that we do not desire to remain in that unclothed state.

Here we have Paul arguing that WE the person are unclothed by a physical body

See 2 Cor. 5: 1-4. Does Paul say we "exist in an unclothed state"? Are you sure he says "we exist" during that time?

What does it mean to be "naked" or "to be unclothed"?

cf. Phil 1: 20-25.

Quote:

and as he says in 1Cor 15 we are "dormant" we "sleep". Notice he says "WE shall not all SLEEP but WE shall all be changed" 1Cor 15.

It is the person that is asleep in death.

You are right that not all people will be dead when Christ comes. Many will be still alive at that time. And those who do die before the Second Coming will be resurrected and changed. We will all be given new, immortal bodies.

How does that mean that we are in existence during the time between death and the resurrection?

1 Cor. 15: 18 says plainly that except for the resurrection, those who have fallen asleep "have perished." There is absolutely no hope for the dead apart from the resurrection. They are not in any sense alive or in existence. They are completely dead. Nothing of them survives death.

What is there about humans that exists after death that a dog or other animal does not have? Apart from the future resurrection, wouldn't humans have the same complete lack of hope-- as well as lack of existence-- as the animals?

Where does the text actually use the word "dormant"? What verse are you reading?

[John317]

To insist as you do that there is no more to a person after death than before conception is patently false and cannot be supported by scripure. Your zeal for the 28 is putting you in an untenable position as in "foot-in-mouth" disease. Sorry about that......mel

Present the evidence in either the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy. You are making a claim. Make your argument on the basis of Bible evidence.

[John317]

Pastor Clarence Schilt postulated that the soul - that breath of life that each one of us had - goes back to God when a person dies, and that God takes care of that particular "breath of life" until the resurrection. Clarence knew there was no Biblical grounds for that particular theory, but it certainly made sense to me and to the rest of the congregation to whom he spoke.

I understand, and I know that some people may feel better believing that. In that case, I would not argue with anyone who feels that they need this belief.

[John317]

This text would suggest consciousness:

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The Bible uses "spirit" in many different ways.

In which way do you believe it is used in Romans 8: 16. What is "our spirit" that the Holy Spirit bears witness to?

Is it saying that the Holy Spirit is bearing witness to our spirit after we die?

Is it saying the Holy Spirit bears witness to an immortal spirit within our bodies?

[melvin mccarty]

YOU made an unsupportble claim! All of a person's lifetime of memories and everything that makes an individual is preserved obviously. Where and how it is preserved may be be debatable but if you believe in a resurrection you must admit their existence. No need to deny obvious facts....mel

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

All breath returns to God, not simply that of the righteous but the breath of the wicked as well.

True. And since all are dormant in that returning to God at death - all are not experiencing anything. They are "asleep". Both the wicked and the righteous.

You keep using the term "dormant". Is that a word you are getting from the Bible?

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- The Bible teaches that we no longer exist when we die.

Quote:

BOBRyan-- Not even once does it say that.

While the Bible does not use the phrase "no longer exist," it does teach the concept.

What part of us does the Bible say exists after our death?

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- We return to dust. We become what we were before God gave us life: dust. If we didn't exist before we were conceived and developed as a baby, we don't exist any more than that after our last breath and return to dust. See Gen. 3: 19.

Quote:

BOBRyan-- Eccl 12 says that the body is what returns to dust -- the spirit continues - it goes to God.

And what is that "spirit" (Ecc. 12: 7) which returns to God?

The Bible tells us the answer. It is the breath of life. The Bible says it is the breath that is in our nostrils. See Job 27: 3; Ps. 104: 29, 30.; 146: 4. "Thou takest away their breath (spirit), they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth Thy spirit (breath), they are created." "All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils."

Quote:

BobRyan-- In Matt 10:28 when someone is killed in this life "they kill the body but are unnable to kill the soul".

What does that mean? It means God alone has power over your ultimate destiny. It means that man cannot keep you from being made alive by God at the resurrection. People may take your life now but God is able to bring us back to life. God alone has the power to take from us all hope of life.

[John317]

YOU made an unsupportble claim! All of a person's lifetime of memories and everything that makes an individual is preserved obviously. Where and how it is preserved may be be debatable but if you believe in a resurrection you must admit their existence. No need to deny obvious facts....mel

God's remembering us and knowing everything about us-- down to our DNA-- is different from our existing after death. God knows us BEFORE we're born, too, but does this mean we actually exist before we're born? Mormons believe it does. But we Adventists don't believe this because the Bible does not teach it.

God knew Cyrus by name before he was born, but that does not mean Cyrus existed before he was born. Neither do we exist after our death, any more than we existed before birth. Yet God knows us before birth and He "keeps us in mind" after death. He knows both the wicked and the righteous by name both before we live and after we cease to live. Yet that does does not mean that some part of us continues to exist after death. There is no part of us that is not mortal. See Ecc. 3: 19, 20. The process of death is the same for both man and animals. The only difference is the animals won't be resurrected and rewarded or judged the way humans will be. Ecc. 12: 13, 14.

[BobRyan]

See 2 Cor. 5: 1-4. Does Paul say we "exist in an unclothed state"? Are you sure he says "we exist" during that time?

What does it mean to be "naked" or "to be unclothed"?

cf. Phil 1: 20-25.

[BobRyan]

God's remembering us and knowing everything about us-- down to our DNA-- is different from our existing after death. God knows us BEFORE we're born, too, but does this mean we actually exist before we're born? Mormons believe it does. But we Adventists don't believe this because the Bible does not teach it.

True. Knowing "about us" is not the same thing as preserving the SAME PERSON so that they are "able to kill the body but NOT the soul" Matt 10:27-28. God only destroys "BOTH body AND SOUL" in fiery hell - the second death, according to Christ. Until then the wicked are dormant -- they sleep but they have not yet died the second death.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

God's remembering us and knowing everything about us-- down to our DNA-- is different from our existing after death. God knows us BEFORE we're born, too, but does this mean we actually exist before we're born? Mormons believe it does. But we Adventists don't believe this because the Bible does not teach it.

True. Knowing "about us" is not the same thing as preserving the SAME PERSON so that they are "able to kill the body but NOT the soul" Matt 10:27-28. God only destroys "BOTH body AND SOUL" in fiery hell - the second death, according to Christ. Until then the wicked are dormant -- they sleep but they have not yet died the second death.

I agree that God raises the same person from death that went into the grave. God promises to remember us and to raise us out of death. God never promised that a part of us lives on after death or continues to exist after we die.

I also agree that when we die the first death, we are not dying the second death. The fact that we will be resurrected is what makes the first death a "sleep." It is because we will be raised up. Except for that, it wouldn't be sleep. It is not called "sleep" because something about us goes on existing after death.

[John317]

In 2Cor 5:1 THIS body this earthly tent is decaying -- and in 2Cor 5:1-2 but we have a HEAVENLY body "eternal made in the heavens" which we get at the resurrection. The middle state is death -- the unclothed state. The PERSON (the soul) is unclothed having neither the earthly decaying tent nor the heavenly eternal body.

Paul says this -

Quote:

2Cor 5

1For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,

3inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

4For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

Instead of "because WE do not want to cease to exist" it is because "WE do not want to be unclothed" having neither the earthly dwelling NOR the heavenly.

In 2 Cor. 5: 3, 4, Paul uses the terms "naked" and "unclothed" to describe the condition between death and the resurrection. There is nothing in those terms that shows we are lying in a "dormant state." What is there in those verses which you believe is evidence that our soul continues to exist after death?

For me all Paul is saying is that he wants to have His glorified body and be alive with God.

Being "naked" is being without a body. Being "unclothed" is the same thing. That is the same as being dead. He is not saying that we are conscious during the time we do not have a body. Nor is he saying that we continue to exist during the time we are without a body.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

This text would suggest consciousness:

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The Bible uses "spirit" in many different ways.

In which way do you believe it is used in Romans 8: 16. What is "our spirit" that the Holy Spirit bears witness to?

Is it saying that the Holy Spirit is bearing witness to our spirit after we die?

Is it saying the Holy Spirit bears witness to an immortal spirit within our bodies?

I would consider these texts:

Job 32:8 But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Ecc 8:8 [There is] no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither [hath he] power in the day of death: and [there is] no discharge in [that] war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

For me the bible teaches there is a spirit in man.

That that spirit returns to God when he dies.

Now as to the nature of that spirit, that seems to be the question.

The romans text would read to me, that our "spirit", is communed with by the Holy Spirit.

So that spirit is of a personal nature to us and is communicated with by God.

That would suggest conscious aspects to that spirit.

Over to you. :-)

Twilight

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

In 2Cor 5:1 THIS body this earthly tent is decaying -- and in 2Cor 5:1-2 but we have a HEAVENLY body "eternal made in the heavens" which we get at the resurrection. The middle state is death -- the unclothed state. The PERSON (the soul) is unclothed having neither the earthly decaying tent nor the heavenly eternal body.

Paul says this -

Quote:

2Cor 5

1For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,

3inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

4For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

Instead of "because WE do not want to cease to exist" it is because "WE do not want to be unclothed" having neither the earthly dwelling NOR the heavenly.

In 2 Cor. 5: 3, 4, Paul uses the terms "naked" and "unclothed" to describe the condition between death and the resurrection. There is nothing in those terms that shows we are lying in a "dormant state."

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

True. Knowing "about us" is not the same thing as preserving the SAME PERSON so that they are "able to kill the body but NOT the soul" Matt 10:27-28. God only destroys "BOTH body AND SOUL" in fiery hell - the second death, according to Christ. Until then the wicked are dormant -- they sleep but they have not yet died the second death.

[/quote']

I agree that God raises the same person from death that went into the grave.

Same person -- different body (as we see in 1Cor 15)

The Person "has a body" or not -- as we see in 2Cor 5. Clearly in that chapter A body is something the person HAS, it is not what the person IS. If we ARE our body -- then a NEW and different body is a NEW and different person "by definition".

Because 2Cor 5 makes it clear that a body is something people HAVE then a person can be given a new body and still be the same person.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

I would consider these texts:

Job 32:8 But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

The word "spirit" here is translated from the Hebrew word, ruach (Strongs #7307), which means "air for breathing, air that is being breathed, breath." It means "breath" in Job 41: 16; Jeremiah 2: 24 and Jer. 10: 14.

The word "inspiration" is translated from the Hebrew word, neshamah (Strongs #5397), and means "a puff of air, a breath, breathing, panting, a breathing being, an animal, a living soul, a living creature, the mind." It is used in Gen. 2: 7; Deut. 20: 16; Josh. 10: 40.

Quote:

Ecc 8:8 [There is] no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither [hath he] power in the day of death: and [there is] no discharge in [that] war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

Here is Ecc. 8:8 in other translations--

Contemporary English Version:

We cannot control the wind or determine the day of our death. There is no escape in time of war, and no one can hide behind evil.

Holman Christian Standard Version:

No one has authority over the wind [life-breath] to restrain it, and there is no authority over the day of death; there is no furlough in battle, and wickedness will not allow those who practice it to escape.

Today's New International Version:

As no one has power over the wind to contain it,

so no one has power over the time of their death.

As no one is discharged in time of war,

so wickedness will not release those who practice it.

New International Reader's Version:

He can't stop the wind from blowing.

And he doesn't have the power to decide when he will die.

No one is let out of the army in times of war.

And evil won't let go of those who practice it.

Amplified Bible:

There is no man who has power over the spirit to retain the breath of life, neither has he power over the day of death; and there is no discharge in battle [against death], neither will wickedness deliver those who are its possessors and given to it.

Ecc. 8: 8 is saying that we have no power over the day of our death. We cannot keep our breath [ruach] in us when we die, or we can't control the wind. There is no reference in this verse to an immortal spirit within us.

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For me the bible teaches there is a spirit in man.

Yes, there is. Gen. 2: 7 tells us how this "spirit" got in man. It says God breathed the breath of life into us.

Quote:

That that spirit returns to God when he dies.

Yes, it says the spirit returns to God who gave it. What spirit did God give? Does Gen. 2: 7 say that God gave an immortal spirit to Adam? No. It says that God "breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul." There is nothing here about God's putting an immortal spirit within man. Adam "became living soul," he wasn't given a soul to be inside of him.

Another point to notice is that Ecc. 12: 7 says that "the spirit" of all the dead returns to God who gave it. This means both of the wicked and the righteous. There is no distinction made.

A third point is that nothing is said to indicate that this "spirit" is a conscious entity. God did not breath a conscious entity into Adam and therefore it is not a conscious entity when it leaves our body at death. Adam became a conscious entity when the breath of life and the body were united. That is when he "became a living soul." When the breath of life leaves his body, Adam dies and returns to the dust (Gen. 3: 19; Ecc. 3: 19, 20) and this breath of life that God gave to Adam returns to God.