Life After Death???

[John317]

... Jobe believed that his soul went to Sheol, WHICH IS NOT THE GRAVE.

The KJV translates "sheol" as "grave" over 30 times. The NIV also translates it as "grave." Hebrew-English Lexicons list "the grave" as one of the definitions of "sheol". See p. 2368 of The Complete Word Study of the Old Testament. See also Strongs #7585 where "grave" is listed as one of the definitions.

In the Jewish Elephantine Papyri the word, "sheol" means "grave."

The bottom line is that it simply meant the place of the dead.

Both good people (Gen. 37: 35) and evil people (Numbers 16: 30) go to "sheol."

The Lord brings people to "sheol" (1 Samuel 2: 6).

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Job knew that his soul continued to exist and would wait for God to raise his body from the dead while his SOUL WAS STILL ALIVE WAITING TO BE JOINED TO THE BODY.

Show proof from the book of Job itself that Job knew that his soul continued to exist and be conscious after death, and that his soul would still be alive waiting to be joined to his body. What are the verses in the book of Job which show this clearly?

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A person who has no self awareness ISN'T "WAITING" FOR ANYTHING!

If you tell a friend you are going home and wait for him to pick you up in the morning, are you telling him that you are going to be awake the whole time you are waiting?

Are you saying that a person must stay awake the whole they are waiting for something?

That's simply ridiculous on its face. I'm amazed you would attempt to make such an argument.

[John317]

You have your opportunity to repent of the false gospel you all are preaching, instead you deliberately shut your eyes so that you cannot see.

You can't see this now, friend Humble, but it is you who are preaching the false gospel. It is a "gospel" that makes our Lord and Savior look bad. It makes Him look worse than Hitler. Hitler himself tortured people but even he did not keep them alive endlessly but allowed them to die finally. You have invented a God who is not the God of the Bible but one who gave sinners immortality. You must be able to see that the necessity of an eternally burning hell comes from the idea that God put within us an immortal soul or spirit. But that is a lie of Satan. He wants people to believe it because it gives him the opportunity to have his demons appear as dead people and also because it makes God look evil and cruel.

The story of creation and Gen. 3: 22-24 show that God didn't give rebels and sinners immortality. Why would He have done that when the Scriptures plainly teach that He didn't want humans to live forever?

Where do you find clear evidence in the Bible that you and everyone else has an immortal soul or spirit NOW? I invite you to make your strongest case for it. Give all the clearest verses in the Bible for the immortality of the soul. You should be able to do that easily if what you are saying is true and we are preaching a false gospel as you claim. I'm listening and waiting.

[John317]

you are "ASSUMING" that God doesn't really care what truth is.

....

No at all. We definitely teach that God cares very much what truth is. The truth that He cares most about is the truth about what kind of God He is. He cares very much about whether we know the truth about His character. One thing we know from Bible study is that God does not keep people alive endlessly for the purpose of torturing them. That's a lie of the Devil. He's the one who wants people to conceive of God in those terms. That's not the God that Jesus came to reveal.

[Taylor]

Yes agreed John. Also the Bible is clear that Satan's first lie to humans is "you will not surely die". So the subject of the "immortality" or the "mortality" of the soul is very important if it was the subject of the first lie ever told.

I am sure our friend Humble is trying to be truthful in his posts. It is just that the Bible teaches something opposite of what he is espousing, even though he doesn't see it that way.

[John317]

I know you love your Jesus, but Adventism has invented a different Jesus than the real one. They despise the real one and have chosen to create a Jesus after their own liking.

Tell us about your Jesus. Describe him. What is He like?

And how did He describe and explain the Father?

What is it about Jesus and the Father that you love and admire?

[John317]

Now, let's see you tell me...what is death, is it..

1. Soul Sleep

or

2. Annihilation

Which one????

You won't see Seventh-day Adventists referring to "soul-sleep." We don't use the term. That is a term used by people who believe in the immortality of the soul.

We believe death to be just what Gen. 2: 7 and 3: 19 show it to be. It is the end of life and consciousness. It occurs when the breath of life leaves the body, the heart stops beating, the brain ceases to function, and the body returns to dust. Jesus called it a sleep because of the resurrection that will wake us up. See how our Lord spoke of it in John 11: 11-14.

The Second death, which occurs after the end of the 1000 years, is annihilation. It is good-bye to all life permanently and eternally. This is shown very clearly in Rev. 20: 14-15. See also Obediah 16; Mal. 4: 1-3; Isaiah 66: 24; Isaiah 1: 28. This last verse says the wicked will come to an end, or be "annihilated" (Modern Language Bible). It is complete separation from God and ceasing to exist.

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And...

Is there any other meaning, ie definition as far as you know in scripture where death is spoken of and has neither connotation?

See Romans 6: 1-11 and Eph. 2: 1-5. These speak of spiritual death.

Spiritual death is when we don't respond to God. It is appropriately called "death" because in death we do not respond and are not conscious.

Do you see how when we are spiritually apart from God, and before we experience the second birth by the Holy Spirit, we are spiritually dead? It means that we don't respond at all to God.

But if death is not death but is really another form of life-- can you see how that takes away from the meaning of spiritual death?

It's only by having a biblical, true understanding of what death is that you can have a true understanding of "spiritual death."

[True-believer]

Thankyou John 317...

It makes perfect Biblical sense... now I understand.

[Taylor]

Thankyou John 317...

It makes perfect Biblical sense... now I understand.

Yes the thread of truth that is so clearly woven throughout every doctrine of the Bible is strong and hard to miss. I too am grateful for God's Word that one can compare and learn from the harmony of the authors showing that God's truth is eternal!

[True-believer]

Also, we as Believers according to 1 Corinthians 15 get Immortal bodies when Jesus returns to take us home... I am looking forward to that day... our blessed assurance.

[Taylor]

Amen! No more zits for the teenagers, or wrinkles on the elderly, no more having to "submitt" to the raveges of diseases for which we have no cure, no more goodbyes as we put our dear friends and relatives into the cold ground! God is good!!!!

[guibox]

I'm not sure why you guys are bantering back and forth with BHumble. His posts are far away from his name. He comes on here and 'shouts', accuses and misconstrues what is being said. He accuses us of proof texting when he is doing it at every turn and arguing out of emotion rather than biblical logic. If he ignoring what we've already presented, he will not listen no matter what we say...and we haven't even scratched the surface of Paul's logic and the biblical usage of the Greek and Hebrew.

He is here to here himself talk and berate, not to reason from the scriptures. He ignores not only the biblical evidence, but the evidence of many throughout the years and from all walks of faith.

- William Tyndale, Luther and John Frith, great Reformers didn't believe in the immortality of the soul, based on the biblical evidence and the words of Paul alone.

- Great 18th and 19th century theologians,scholars and writers like RF Weymouth, Isaac Newton, John Milton, Oscar Cullman and Basil Atkinson denied either the immortality of the soul or eternal torment.

- Great modern day 20th century scholars and evangelists like John Stott, Philip Hughes, Michael Greene, John Wenham, Clark Pinnock and Edward Fudge changed their minds from eternal torment to annihilation based on the biblical evidence.

Following the grand scope of salvation history, the emphasis on the resurrection and the meaning of the Greek and Hebrew words for 'hell', 'death', 'destruction', 'grave', 'consume' and 'burn up', one cannot BUT come away from the scriptures with the clear teaching that eternal like is only realized at the resurrection of the just, and rewards and punishments are given out at the end of time, not at our physical deaths: eternal life for the righteous, death for the wicked which is the wages of sin (Romans 6:23).

Brother Humble, please 'B-more humble' and see that this issue is not as black and white as you seem to think.

[John317]

I'm not sure why you guys are bantering back and forth with BHumble. His posts are far away from his name. He comes on here and 'shouts', accuses and misconstrues what is being said. He accuses us of proof texting when he is doing it at every turn and arguing out of emotion rather than biblical logic. If he ignoring what we've already presented, he will not listen no matter what we say...and we haven't even scratched the surface of Paul's logic and the biblical usage of the Greek and Hebrew.

He is here to here himself talk and berate, not to reason from the scriptures. He ignores not only the biblical evidence, but the evidence of many throughout the years and from all walks of faith.....

Brother Humble, please 'B-more humble' and see that this issue is not as black and white as you seem to think.

Everything you say here, guibox, is true, but I've dealt with BHumble before and am used to his tactics. As the moderator, I sent him the following message, and now is a good time to repeat it:

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Mr. Humble... you're pretty arrogant as usual, I see. You haven't changed at all since the last time you were with us.

As the moderator, Mr. Humble, I'm going to ask that you keep on topic and not denigrate people and groups. Be polite as you possibly can be and show common courtesy. Try to say something positive once in a while if you can bear it.

I expect to see you keeping your comments on the topic and away from put-downs and comments about whole groups of people.

I noticed the last time Mr. Humble posted, he did better than the day before, so I'm hopeful he will continue to improve in his posting manners.

I'm actually hoping he comes back and continues the "discussion".

[John317]

- William Tyndale, Luther and John Frith, great Reformers didn't believe in the immortality of the soul, based on the biblical evidence and the words of Paul alone.

- Great 18th and 19th century theologians,scholars and writers like RF Weymouth, Isaac Newton, John Milton, Oscar Cullman and Basil Atkinson denied either the immortality of the soul or eternal torment.

- Great modern day 20th century scholars and evangelists like John Stott, Philip Hughes, Michael Greene, John Wenham, Clark Pinnock and Edward Fudge changed their minds from eternal torment to annihilation based on the biblical evidence.

Mr. Humble was made aware of these things about a year ago, but he didn't appreciate them at all. I'm anxious to find out if he's changed his thinking about them since that time. A year ago, he simply referred to all these people as heretics whom God must surely be punishing eternally for their errors.

We can add the name Joaquin Jeremias to the list of highly respected Bible scholars in the 20th century who studied their way into belief in the non-immortality of the soul.

[John317]

I didn't say you were all Atheist. I said you preach the Atheist gospel of annihilationism. You preach that if you are a rapist, murderer, terrorist, robber..etc, and you kill yourself, you better off than the cops catching you and being shamed and put into prison for years upon years.

Adventist preaches you can murder and torture just like Saddam and Hitler and the rest and all they have to do is be like Hitler and kill himself and he escapes the horror of justice and trades it in for "soul sleep".

The fact that the wicked don't suffer conscious, eternal punishment is indeed good news. With that, we most certainly agree wholeheartedly.

Would you be disappointed if God were to tell you that He's NOT going to keep people alive so He can put them through extreme torment throughout all eternity?

The "atheist gospel" you speak of is that God won't have a day of judgement and therefore no one will be called to account for his life or be responsible for anything he's done.

Seventh-day Adventists teach just the opposite of this "atheist gospel." We teach that God has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man who He has ordained. We teach that God has given assurance of this to all by raising Jesus Christ from the dead.

Notice that this is precisely what the apostle Paul was inspired by God to preach to the Athenians in Acts 17. You will find nothing there about torturing people between people's death and the judgment. Paul doesn't use terror to move people to decide for God.

Please analyze the preaching of Peter in Acts 2 and 3. Tell what sermon uses the idea of God's torturing people after death or throughout eternity, for the purpose of convincing them to repent and turn to God for salvation.

Give an example from the Bible of a sermon that you believe Seventh-day Adventists ought to copy or imitate in trying to teach about the judgment.

If you cannot find where Peter or Paul preached endless torment by God of people after their deaths, does that mean to you that they also were preaching "the atheist gospel"?

[Robert]

Job knew that his soul continued to exist and would wait for God to raise his body from the dead while his SOUL WAS STILL ALIVE WAITING TO BE JOINED TO THE BODY.

What part of Job was naturally righteous? In fact Job, as did Paul, said "Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee?" This is equivalent to Paul's statement: "I know in me dwelth nothing good." Only the Holy Spirit, who resides in the believer, is good. But we are not the Holy Spirit, so in ourselves (excluding the HS) we can't make a claim to holiness. This doesn't mean that God can't work through us as we "walk in the Spirit".

My point? What part of us has natural immortality - i.e., goodness? What part escapes death? After all the Bible says "the wages of sin is death." The OT says "the soul that sins it must die". Sin pays in death. Hence "in Adam all die".

There's no escaping the 1st death because we are sinners. The whole person dies, but because believers have accepted Christ their first death (called a sleep death) has a resurrection. The 2nd death has no resurrection - Hence it is goodbye to life forever. This death Christ took upon Himself. That's why at the resurrection the old, flesh and blood - the fallen humanity that He assumed at the incarnation, remained in the grave. In it's place Christ's deity was raised with a glorified, sinless humanity. Sin remained in the grave.

Those who reject Christ's righteousness will experience the God abandonment that Christ experienced. This is the 2nd death. No one has experienced that death, but all of us will experience the 1st (except those who are translated, but even these are changed....)

Rob

[Gerr]

God "ALONE has immortality," 1 Tim 6:16 ESV.

[John317]

Again, you have no IDEA WHAT DEATH IS. You think it's annhilation or nonexistence. It's not.

There are many Bible verses which show that the wicked are utterly and completely destroyed. See a few below.

Daniel 7: 26--

'But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. (NAS) (Strongs# 8046) (Aramaic: shem-ad)

(Aphel) to destroy

Translated Words

KJV (1) - consume, 1;

NAS (2) - Shemed, 1; annihilated, 1;

Isaiah 1: 28 says the wicked will "come to an end." The Modern Language Bible (New Berkeley Version) translates it, "annihilated."

The Hebrew word is "kalah" (Strongs #3615) and means "to be consumed, to vanish, to cease, end."

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Strong's Number: 3615 hlk

Original Word Word Origin

hlk a primitive root

Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling

Kalah kaw-law'

Parts of Speech

Verb

Definition

to accomplish, cease, consume, determine, end, fail, finish, be complete, be accomplished, be ended, be at an end, be finished, be spent

NAS (208) - annihilate, 1; annihilated, 2; been consumed, 2; been spent, 1; came to an end, 1; ceased, 1; come to an end, 5; completely gone, 1; consume, 6; consumed, 16; demolish, 1; destroy, 10; destroyed, 4; destroyed them all, 1; destroys, 1; destruction, 1; devoured, 1; died, 1; end, 4; ended, 3; ending, 1; exhausted, 2; exterminated, 1; finish, 6; finished, 67; finishes, 1; make an end, 1; over, 1; perish, 1; perishing, 1; put an end, 2; spent, 5; terminate, 1; vanish, 2; vanishes, 1; waste away, 1; wastes away, 1.

The Second death is complete non-existence. The Bible speaks of it as "being brought to an end," of being annihilated, consumed, of being as if one had never been.

Did one have any existence before one was conceived? Obviously not. That is exactly how the second death is. It is returning to non-being, the way it was before conception. This is what is being said in Rev. 20: 13- 21: 4.

Death and Hades itself are brought to an end. They are cast into the lake of fire. It is obvious that death and Hades are not literally cast into the fire. What the verse is saying is that Death and Hades are no more at that point. This is stated explicitly in 21: 4.

Would the Word of God say "there shall be no more death" and "no more pain," if billions of people continue to be in excruciating pain? No. All death and pain are a thing of the past. Therefore, as it says, "the former things have passed away."

Rev. 21: 8 says plainly that the lake of fire is the second death, i.e., eternal, endless death. That is also what Rev. 20: 14 says. So it is saying that Death and Hades are thrown into the second death. These are all abstractions, so it is impossible for death and Hades to be literally thrown into the second death. It obviously means, then, that death and Hades are brought to a complete, utter, and final end. This is the death of death itself.

[John317]

2. Man is just like an animal in death comparison - NOTICE HOW THE ABORTIONIST USE THE SAME HEINOUS ARGUMENTS.

SDAs don't say man is just like an animal in terms of value. God has shown by giving his Son to die for humans that humans are of infinite value.

What we are saying is that the process of death is the same for man and the animals. This is precisely what the Bible itself says in Gen. 3: 19; Ecc. 3: 18-20.

Compare the process of creation of humans and the process of death:

(Gen. 2: 7) Creation: dust (PLUS) breath of life= living soul

(Ge. 3: 19; Ecc. 12: 7; Ps. 104: 29; cf. Job 27: 3; 33:4) Death: living soul (MINUS) breath of life= death

This means that without Christ dying for us and resurrecting us, we would die the same as the animals-- eternally. Apart from Christ we would have absolutely no hope of life AT ALL. We have life only in Christ. Again, this is precisely what the Bible teaches in the following texts: 1 Cor. 15: 18; 1 John 5: 12.

[jasd]

QR frame:

Until I find the time to go through the posts on these latter pages...

let me simply correct a misconception.

There is no immotality of the soul - as long as there is one who can destroy it. Otherwise...

Besides, no one defines 'soul' - we jib-jab. Is it the composite unit of mind, body, 'soul'? That which returns to Gd? That which exists aside from the body? The endued pneuma? the ruach? Etc.

:-o

[John317]

There is no immotality of the soul - as long as there is one who can destroy it.

Check out Gen 3: 22-24. It says God did not want mankind to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life. In fact, God stationed special angel-guards near the entrance of the garden to keep Adam and Eve from getting near the Tree.

Why not ? Because by the eating of the fruit of that tree, they would have lived forever (i.e. become immortal). See Rev. 22: 1-2. God obviously did not wish sinful, fallen mankind to become immortal. "Immortal" means not being subject to death. Think what a problem that would cause-- rebels who hate God living forever.

If that is how God felt about fallen mankind becoming immortal, what are the chances of God's placing an immortal soul within untested mankind? I don't think God would have been so foolish as to have done that. That is why it is not surprising that Gen. 2: 7 says nothing about an immortal soul or spirit being put inside man. It doesn't say it anywhere in the Scriptures, either. I'm not surprised-- are you?

[guibox]

There are two trains of thought in mainstream Christianity about the soul.

1) Man was created with an inherent immortal soul

2) Man was created to live eternally, but lost it due to sin. When one accepts Christ, one is then made immortal again.

In my opinion, the first argument not only has no biblical merit, but is blatantly contradicted by the arguments of sin, a fallen nature, resurrection and regeneration. When faced with these logical facts, many Christians will move from believing number 1 to believing number 2. This is at least a good start to understanding and accepting the biblical view of life after death.

These two views usually coincide with the belief that when man sinned, he "spiritually died", but still physically lived. This argument is used to try and get around the clear teaching of death and unconsciousness. Therefore, when the bible says "ye shall surely die", he was not talking about eternal, physical death but a spiritual one.

Despite the glaring problems with this, let us work with this to show that option number 1 cannot be true.

If man "spiritually" dies, then it leads us to conclude that when he dies physically, he is still also dead spiritually.

What this misguided argument indirectly implies for being able to live forever after our physical death as a disembodied soul, is that in this life, man dies spiritually but lives physically, and when he dies physically he lives spiritually!

Such an argument is absurd.

If man dies spiritually, he remains so. At his physical death therefore, there is no life either physically or spiritually (spirit-soul). The only thing that will save him is to be regenerated by accepting Christ. Therefore, man cannot have an inherent immortal soul, and considering that only accepting Christ can change that, means that the wicked cannot have immortal souls to be tormented forever and ever.

This is the reason why many Christians choose number 2 as their philosophy of life after death. Yet, they still cannot work around the implications of this argument for the wicked and conveniently ignore it despite the glaring problems.

[John317]

All excellent points, guibox. That sheds important light on the subject.

[John317]

Adventism has borrowed the arguments invented by the Atheist and used them to defend their brand of so-called christianity. The Atheist arguments are exactly the same.. they use the same old

It would be good if you would post here all the Bible verses which you believe show that the human soul is immortal. Do you ever give Bible studies? Give us a Bible study from the viewpoint of the immortality of the soul.

[jasd]

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Quote:jasd

There is no immortality of the soul - as long as there is one who can destroy it.

>>Check out Gen 3: 22-24. It says God did not want mankind to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life. In fact, God stationed special angel-guards near the entrance of the garden to keep Adam and Eve from getting near the Tree.

Why not ?<<

Should Adam and Eve have had access to the Tree of Life, Gd would have been made a liar – in that He had explicitly stated that “In the day that you eat thereof, you will die”. [/paraphrased]

>>If that is how God felt about fallen mankind becoming immortal, what are the chances of God's placing an immortal soul within untested mankind?<<

So, how does one Biblically define soul?

>>I don't think God would have been so foolish as to have done that.<<

I believe there are two or more bloodlines identified in the first seven chapters of the book of Genesis – one of those was that of the family of Noah – and the other(s?), seemingly, [an] amalgamation(s?).

St Peter informs us that Jesus Christ...

1 Pet 3:18 ... being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Pet3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison (5438 phylake);

1 Prt 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient , when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, ...

(phylake: a place of custody, a guarded place [/paraphrased]

Purgatory?)

found, at least, an aspect of those “disobedient” ones with which to communicate with whilst ‘He’ (the fleshly tabernacly) was entombed.

>>That is why it is not surprising that Gen. 2: 7 says nothing about an immortal soul or spirit being put inside man.<<

Why should it prove “surprising”, or no, – that Genesis 2:7 does not exegete that manifested elsewhere? It may be that “spirit” is not “put inside man” – but is developed whilst man.

The good steward finds both the new and old in his master’s storehouse... I am somewhat loth to recourse to the common – but, where is Trinity found in Holy Writ?

>>It doesn't say it anywhere in the Scriptures, either. I'm not surprised-- are you?<<

Note: re ‘soul’

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Quote:jasd

There is no immortality of the soul - as long as there is one who can destroy it.

[John317]

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Quote:jasd

It may be that “spirit” is not “put inside man” – but is developed whilst man.

Could you explain that? Where do you find clear Bible evidence for that?

While the name "Trinity" is not found in Scripture, I believe the concept is.

To start with:

Jesus Christ is certainly referred to as "God," and so is the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Matt. 3: 16, 17; Matt. 28: 19; 2 Cor. 13: 14; Eph. 4: 4-6; Titus 3: 4-6; John 3: 34, 35; 14: 26; 15: 26; 16: 13-15; Romans 14: 17, 18; 15: 13-17, 30; 1 Cor. 6: 11. 17-19; 12: 4-6; 2 Cor. 1: 21, 22; 3: 4-6.

There are over 55 verses that mention the three Persons together. The above are just a few examples.

By the way, the Greek sentence structure and rules of grammar leave no doubt that the verses are referring to three separate, distinct persons.