Life After Death???

[John317]

it's all bad and more than that it is ridiculous......mel

I agree that it is bad for the wicked. God is trying to put up a red flag and say "You don't want to be in this situation. Why will you die?" He wants people to live, not die the second death. So yes, it is very terrible.

But ridiculous it definitely is not.

ridiculous

deserving or inviting derision or mockery; absurd

[John317]

clearly what is going on here is the lake of fire as satan will be tormented eternally.Along with all that are that are thrown in ther as in 1 Corinthians 9-11 Rev 20:14,15 this after the second resurection.We will be with Christ by then.

No, not eternally, because they are not immortal. The Bible says they will come to an end of their suffering and be utterly destroyed. For instance, see Isaiah 1: 28, where it says the wicked will be "annihilated" (Modern Language Bible). See also Mal. 4: 1, where the fire burns the wicked up and leaves them neither root nor branch.

In Rev. 20, the fire consumes the wicked on the surface of the earth. Then death and hades are picked up and hurled into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the Second Death. No more death or suffering afterwards. This is the death of death. So death will not be throughout eternity. All pain, crying and suffering end. Rev. 21: 4.

[melvin mccarty]

Hmmmmm absurd hey that's a better word change it please ....mel

[Shekinah]

satan will be tormented etrnally sorry read revelation 20:10 the ones who are not in the bok of life join satan in rev 20:15 yes that is the second death but satan will be tormented forever, sorry i didnt clarify that like I had wanted too.

[Shekinah]

i agree with that and this is where many get confused and think the wicked will be roaming earth for 1000 years after we go to heaven its actually the second resurection when we come back and the wicked are judged after which the earth is made new and new Jerusalem comes down.I have had many intense discussions on this.So a tired mind types wrong sometimes.Interesting enough this text in the bible should be enough to make one think and see Christ for salvation.

[John317]

satan will be tormented etrnally sorry read revelation 20:10 the ones who are not in the bok of life join satan in rev 20:15 yes that is the second death but satan will be tormented forever, sorry i didnt clarify that like I had wanted too.

Satan and the evil angels will be tormented in the lake of fire for a period of time but they will finally be totally destroyed and consumed. See Ezekiel 28: 18. He will be turned to ashes upon the earth. Compare Mal. 4:1, 3 and Is. 66: 24.

The destruction will forever, but fires will finally go out like the "eternal fires" of Sodom finally went out and are no longer burning. See Jude 7.

The words "forever" and "eternal" only mean endless when those words are in reference to immortal people, but of course God has never made the wicked immortal. There are a number of instances where "forever" is used in regard to things that stopped a long time ago. For instance, in 1 Samuel 1: 22, Hannah promises to take Samuel to serve in the temple "forever." But in verse 28, it is made plain that he is to be there "as long as he lives." See also Jonah 2: 6.

So the wicked, including Satan, will burn as long as they live and until they are completely destroyed and consumed. Then, as Rev. 21: 1-3 says, God will remake the earth, and God's people will live with God on the new earth.

Notice that verse 4 says that there will no longer be any death or pain or crying. This could not be said if millions of people were continuing to be tormented and burned.

[Robert]

What part do you decide is good and what part "bad" here, and on what basis?

EGW: Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained.

The Bible!

[Robert]

Back to the Bible...or should I say a good, solid understanding of the Bible?

The problem is we humans like to place human attributes onto God. Hence we make a god out of our own preconceived ideas based on sinful, human interaction.

To understand both God's love and His justice we must go to the cross. We know that Christ, as the Son of Man, took "the curse of the law" (the 2nd death) upon Himself. He came to save mankind from "the wages of sin" better known as the 2nd death.

Q: Did God murder Christ? Better yet, did God torture Christ by having Him nailed to a cross?

A: Not just "no", but heck no!!! How so? Go to Isaiah 53:4. I'll give you two versions. First the NKJV and then the GNT:

"Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed [considered] Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted."

Did you get that? From the human perspective, which is totally unreliable, we think God did these atrocities. The GNB makes it clearer [last sentence]:

"We thought that his suffering was punishment sent by God."

Did God torture Christ? No! Who did? The Romans and the Jews, but that doesn't constitute the 2nd death and what saves us.

What the world did to Christ was torture. What God did was to abandon Christ because that's the 2nd death. You die because God has abandoned you. But when God goes away the hope of the resurrection is gone too. That's the 2nd death.

So this thing where EGW says that God keeps the sinner feeling the pain as long as there's something left (a finger, a toe, a leg, etc) is pure nonsense. It is unBiblical. She has failed to understand God's love and justice. She has put human attributes onto God. Shame! But then again she had "limited light" and God accepted her where she was at during that time. Be very careful what you accept. The Bible is the measuring stick of truth.

[John317]

Back to the Bible...or should I say a good, solid understanding of the Bible?

Q: Did God murder Christ? Better yet, did God torture Christ by having Him nailed to a cross?

A: Not just "no"....

"We thought that his suffering was punishment sent by God."

Did God torture Christ? No! Who did? The Romans and the Jews, but that doesn't constitute the 2nd death and what saves us.

What the world did to Christ was torture......

Of course God did not torture and kill Christ. The Bible clearly shows that men did the torturing and the killing. No doubt.

It was done through God's determined plan and it had to happen, but people bear the responsibility. In fact, in a very real sense we all bear the responsibility. Our sins killed Christ.

Remember that Ellen White never says that God killed Christ. Nor have SDAs ever portrayed it this way.

Quote:

So this thing where EGW says that God keeps the sinner feeling the pain as long as there's something left (a finger, a toe, a leg, etc) is pure nonsense. It is unBiblical. She has failed to understand God's love and justice. She has put human attributes onto God. Shame! But then again she had "limited light" and God accepted her where she was at during that time. Be very careful what you accept. The Bible is the measuring stick of truth.

Your last paragraph doesn't follow.

Remember that you want to stay with the Bible. What does the Bible say? Read Rev. 19: 20-21 and Rev. 20: 9-10, 12-15. (Compare Rev. 14: 9-11.)

Whereas the Bible is clear that God did not torture and kill Christ, the Bible is very clear that the wicked are killed by fire that comes down from God out of heaven.

Here is Rev. 20: 9 (last part): "And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them." That is the Bible. If we let the Bible be the measuring stick of truth, there is no question that it supports what Ellen White says.

[Robert]

"And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them." That is the Bible. If we let the Bible be the measuring stick of truth, there is no question that it supports what Ellen White says.

God is not the cause of the destruction in the end just like God didn't kill Christ. Failure to understand the bigger picture leads men to place sinful attributes onto God just like Ellen White did in Early Writings.

We've been over this a trillion times. God assumes the blame because, in His Sovereignty, He has allowed Lucifer to develop his version of love called iniquity.

Because God is sovereign and because He is ultimately in control He assumes the blame until the day of Atonement. That's why you see statements like, "Fire came down from God...." and "I (God) killed Saul"...and "I make men deaf, dumb and blind"..."I create evil"..."I God do all these things."

Apparently Ellen White wasn't given this info given her statement in EW. She had limited light and made certain assumptions. God does not torture sinners and for Him to keep one alive after everything is consumed except, let's say one's hand, would mean God is in the category of Hitler and such.

[Robert]

Of course God did not torture and kill Christ.

[jasd]

>>While the name "Trinity" is not found in Scripture, I believe the concept is.<<

As is – 'the continuing man'.

Per the term “destroy”:

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy (#4229) man whom I have created from the face of the earth;

Strong’s destroy: #4229 machah

1) to wipe, wipe out

a) (Qal)

1) to wipe

2) to blot out, obliterate

3) to blot out, exterminate

(Niphal)

1) to be wiped out

2) to be blotted out

3) to be exterminated

c) (Hiphil) to blot out (from memory)

2) (Qal) to strike

3) (Pual) full of marrow (participle)

Destroy, as utilized in Genesis 6:7 appears to be pretty definitive, yes? Consider:

1 Pet 3:18 ... being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison (5438 phylake);

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient , when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, ...

Though “destroyed” from “the face of the earth” – they remain accessible to the spirit of Jesus Christ – who went to them that He might preach. As written for our exegetical benefit, is there a similitude between

“the face of the earth” and the Ecclesiastical reference “under the sun”?

[guibox]

1 Pet 3:18 ... being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison (5438 phylake);

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient , when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, ...

Though “destroyed” from “the face of the earth” – they remain accessible to the spirit of Jesus Christ – who went to them that He might preach.

[John317]

Actually mankind didn't cause Christ's death. Yes, they tortured Him, but He died because of the separation. He died of a literal broken heart because the Father had to abandon Him who became sin for us who personally knew no sin.

Yes, of course. SDAs know this better than most because Ellen White emphasizes this point.

Most Catholics are unaware of it.

But that wouldn't have happened if men hadn't nailed him to the cross. So when you get right down to it, humans were the ones who killed him. Acts even says so. See Acts 2: 23. Men put him to death. We don't want to argue with the word of God, do we?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Actually mankind didn't cause Christ's death. Yes, they tortured Him, but He died because of the separation. He died of a literal broken heart because the Father had to abandon Him who became sin for us who personally knew no sin.

Yes, of course. SDAs know this better than most because Ellen White emphasizes this point.

Most Catholics are unaware of it.

But that wouldn't have happened if men hadn't nailed him to the cross. So when you get right down to it, humans were the ones who killed him. Acts even says so. See Acts 2: 23. Men put him to death. We don't want to argue with the word of God, do we?

[B Humble]

>>While the name "Trinity" is not found in Scripture, I believe the concept is.<<

As is – 'the continuing man'.

Per the term “destroy”:

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy (#4229) man whom I have created from the face of the earth;

Strong’s destroy: #4229 machah

1) to wipe, wipe out

a) (Qal)

1) to wipe

2) to blot out, obliterate

3) to blot out, exterminate

(Niphal)

1) to be wiped out

2) to be blotted out

3) to be exterminated

c) (Hiphil) to blot out (from memory)

2) (Qal) to strike

3) (Pual) full of marrow (participle)

Destroy, as utilized in Genesis 6:7 appears to be pretty definitive, yes? Consider:

1 Pet 3:18 ... being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison (5438 phylake);

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient , when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, ...

Though “destroyed” from “the face of the earth” – they remain accessible to the spirit of Jesus Christ – who went to them that He might preach. As written for our exegetical benefit, is there a similitude between

“the face of the earth” and the Ecclesiastical reference “under the sun”?

Destroy can mean all the above quoted, BUT, SIGNIFICANTLY jasd, left out the true meaning of what it means when a person is "destroyed" .. it doesn't mean any of the definitions he gave. My son wrecked his car and "destroyed it" but IT STILL EXISTS. A person can cheat on their spouse and "destroy" their marriage, IT DOESN'T MEAN THE MARRIAGE DOESN'T EXIST. When God "destroys" body and soul in ghenna, IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY CEASE TO EXIST, it means, they are tormented in hell fire forever and ever. Destroyed in this case means that the purpose for which body and soul were created are "destroyed" . Because what was created to give glory to God and worship and fellowship with him, is now "lost" and "destroyed" and will nevermore be allowed.

The inability of the SDA to see this is not so much that they can't, they could BUT IT IS A WILLFUL TURNING OF THE EYES FROM THE EXPLICIT TRUTH IN ORDER TO FOLLOW THE FALSE TEACHINGS BY THEIR SELF-PROCLAIMED PROPHETESS.

Mt. 25:30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where THERE WILL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH of teeth.'....

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels.

NOTICE THE USE OF "ETERNAL LIFE AND ETERNAL PUNISHMENT" USED IN THE SAME VERSE BY THE WORDS OF CHRIST IN MATT.25:46... 46"Then they will go away to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous to ETERNAL LIFE.

THIS IS SO EXPLICITLY CLEAR YOU HAVE TO DELIBERATELY START CORRUPTING THE MEANING IN ORDER TO MISS IT. JUST WATCH ALL THE MENTAL GYMNASTICS USED BY THE SDA TO AVOID THIS EXPLICIT MEANING....TRULY THEY ARE PLAYING WITH ETERNAL FIRE, A FIRE THAT WILL NEVER BE STOP TORMENTING.

Folks, it's willful choosing not to see. And willful neglect of proper fear and tremble before God that keeps them from seeing it. A false prophet false teachers, WILL RECEIVE a false teacher and false prophet's REWARD.

[John317]

The inability of the SDA to see this is not so much that they can't, they could BUT IT IS A WILLFUL TURNING OF THE EYES FROM THE EXPLICIT TRUTH IN ORDER TO FOLLOW THE FALSE TEACHINGS BY THEIR SELF-PROCLAIMED PROPHETESS.

The inability of Mr. Humble to see what the Bible actually teaches is not so much that he can't, he could BUT IT IS A WILLFUL TURNING OF THE EYES FROM THE EXPLICIT TRUTH IN ORDER TO FOLLOW FALSE TEACHING AND TRADITIONS THAT COME OUT OF EGYPT, BABYLON, GREECE, AND ROME.

Mr. Humble, you need to do some more study of history. You will find that the origin of SDA beliefs in this matter-- as well as all of our fundamental beliefs-- do not originate with Ellen White.

Besides, history records many Christians who have believed as we do, and these people never even heard of Ellen White. Have you ever heard of John Milton, Martin Luther, just to name two?

If you are going to talk about these things, it would be good if you would study and make sure you are telling the truth and not repeating inaccuracies.

You are welcome here-- and I am glad you are here-- but it gets tiresome to read the same things over and over again in your posts that are not even true.

Also, please do not make judgments about people's hearts and minds. You have no idea of people's intentions.

[John317]

Destroy can mean all the above quoted, BUT, SIGNIFICANTLY jasd, left out the true meaning of what it means when a person is "destroyed" .. it doesn't mean any of the definitions he gave. My son wrecked his car and "destroyed it" but IT STILL EXISTS. A person can cheat on their spouse and "destroy" their marriage, IT DOESN'T MEAN THE MARRIAGE DOESN'T EXIST. When God "destroys" body and soul in ghenna, IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY CEASE TO EXIST, it means, they are tormented in hell fire forever and ever. Destroyed in this case means that the purpose for which body and soul were created are "destroyed" . Because what was created to give glory to God and worship and fellowship with him, is now "lost" and "destroyed" and will nevermore be allowed.

This would be a good argument-- except for one thing: Where does the Bible say that God put within man an immortal spirit or soul that survives the death of the body and is conscious after death?

You first have to establish that fact before you assume that people who are "destroyed" in Rev. 14 and 20 continue to exist as conscious entities. Where is that evidence? Please produce it and post it here.

Otherwise you are merely repeating tradition, not God's word.

Check out what Malachi 4: 1-3 says about the destruction of the wicked. It says nothing about immortals souls continuing to be tortured throughout endless ages. Neither does Isaiah 1: 28. It says the wicked are "consumed," and the Hebrew uses a word that means "annihilated" (See Modern Language Bible).

[John317]

When God "destroys" body and soul in ghenna, IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY CEASE TO EXIST,

Show references and Bible proof of this.

[John317]

Mt. 25:30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where THERE WILL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH of teeth.'....

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels.

NOTICE THE USE OF "ETERNAL LIFE AND ETERNAL PUNISHMENT" USED IN THE SAME VERSE BY THE WORDS OF CHRIST IN MATT.25:46... 46"Then they will go away to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous to ETERNAL LIFE.

We have already told you this, so I am not sure if you are reading or studying what we post.

"Eternal" is used of things that are not everlasting or endless. For instance, Jude 7 says that Sodom and Gomorrah "suffered the punishment of eternal fire." It says plainly that those who were punished in those fires are an example of the punishment of those who will suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Yet it is obvious that the fires that destroyed those cities went out a long time ago. It was eternal in the sense that the destruction was total and final. The fire burned until it destroyed what it was intended to destroy. That is the same it will be with the fire that destroys the wicked.

The contrast between "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" must be understood in the light of the fact that the wicked are not immortal and the saved are. Remember that the saved are given the gift of immortality. The wicked, on the other hand, are mortal, subject to death. That means they die. They do not live forever.

Again, the righteous put on immortality. Therefore "eternal life" for them means endless life. The wicked have no immortality but are mortal. Therefore "eternal punishment" for them means they die eternally or endlessly. Their punishment is without end. What is their punishment? Death. (Remember: the wages of sin is death, not eternal torture or eternal life in hell.)

They cease to exist. The Bible says the wicked will be as if they had never been. See Obadiah 16.

Like this:

Living soul (MINUS) breath of life (EQUALS) Dust or Dead Soul

[guibox]

Humble is NOT reading our posts, people. He wants to hear himself talk and offer things that cannot be supported by scripture. His comments about these doctrines being part of the 'false prophet' shows what his intentions are...it definitely isn't for exploring the facts and evidence as John has pointed out. Annihilation and conditional immortality have been believed for over 500 years. They didn't originate with EGW or the SDA church. I'm sure great evangelical scholars like John Stott, Michael Greene and Clark Pinnock would be so aghast to realize that what they have found in the Bible really comes from EGW!

When he actually dialogues and deals specifically what we are talking about, proves his point from the scriptures instead of assumptive, eseigetical interpretation, then maybe I'll engage him in conversation.

Suffice it to say that his interpretation of 'destroy' is NEVER applied in that context to the wicked's eternal destiny in the scriptures. And in using his analogy, the car may not be 'extinct' but it definitely is not 'alive' and functioning.

Second, as I and John317 have pointed out, for eternal torment to be valid two things must be proven:

1) That man has an inherent immortal soul

2) That eternal life/immortality is bestowed upon the wicked

Unfortunately for Mr. Humble, who refuses to see the evidence,the biblical evidence goes strongly against the above concepts and his views cannot be supported.

That doesn't really matter to people like Humble, however.

[SouthAfrican]

How can a merciful God allow lost souls (sinners) to be tormented for all eternity? That would not be just. And, if done, then it would mean that God will lower Himself to Satan's level - to torment people - which is NOT in the character of God.

Because God is merciful, He will allow the sinner to die the second death, and get it over and done with, and not be tortured for all eternity.

Besides, if Satan's burning for eternity, chances are that somebody might feel pity for Satan, and take him out of his torment - only to start the cycle of sin over again.

Further - suppose you're in heaven, but your family's burning for all eternity, will you be happy knowing that they're being tormented for ever?

So when God makes an end to sin, He will burn sin and sinners alike with an ETERNAL fire (one which cannot be put out) until sin is completely eradicated, and only then will that fire go out.

Imagine a fire which you CANNOT extinguish, no matter what you do. This sort of fire might be different than the fire we know today.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:John317

There is no indication here that people suffer after their body is destroyed. [...] ...there is no evidence here of the soul being immortal or that people will continue to suffer after their body no longer exists.

Quote:

Quote:EGW

EW 294: I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. EW 294 [ed.jasd]

>>If you compare your description of what you claimed Ellen White says, you will find that Ellen White does not say what you claim. Here is your description:<<

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Note: EGW states the apart and sentient ‘self’ will experience pain (torture?) even when there is nothing left of the carnal that could conceivably sustain awareness.

I believe that should you reread the above two quotes, that of EGW and my quote following - you will notice that the two essentially state the same thing.

John317, as the body ‘perisheth’ by fire – tell me, what portion of it, past the obvious, sustains the ability to perceive pain – until the final toenail is turned to ash, as it were? To even propose that, as EGW does in EW 294, there exists that which experiences pain long after life is thought to have ceased – is to acknowledge that

there is that aside from the carnal that ‘senses’. The question obtaining would be,

what? is that “worm of life”, which she asserts “will not die”...? Following:

Quote:

Quote:EGW

... 'The worm of life shall not die;...

[jasd]

>>See also Mal. 4: 1, where the fire burns the wicked up and leaves them neither root nor branch.<<

I know you have more than a passing familiarity with photography. It follows that you’re also familiar with the sometimes-elusive effect of Kirlian photography and ‘phantom leaves’. So, disregarding the obvious mistakes, which have given rise to some criticism – would you allow for a confluent form comprised of the material as well the unknown? such as the subatomic, electrical, magnetic resonance, etc?

>>So death will not be throughout eternity. All pain, crying and suffering end.<<

Indeed, eventually. However, what are the formulae or mechanics as indicated in Writ? Does not Gd declaim, “Have I begun a work and will I not finish it?” Does not the work of man begin at conception?

For us to suggest that Gd begins His work in life and ends it in the shame of “annihilation” and failure – a partial victory by any measure – is almost reprehensible in thought. That hypothesis (doctrine?) proposes that

the enemy ‘death’ is equally victorious – in eternal possession of so many former lives...

One might inquire why there remains the [need for a] Tree of Life after the millenium and why there remain those who are without the City of New Jerusalem; that is, dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolators, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Rev 22

Amen.

Might one suspect than another interTestamental period following Revelation 22 -- awaits? such as that which followed Malachi?

[BobRyan]

when a person dies,

1. the veil over the soul is lifted and

2. he sees life from an entirely different perspective.

3. The righteous judgment of sin is seen from God's point of view and the momentary SUFFERINGS of this life is seen from an eternal perspective to be "not to be compared" the eternal rewards.

3. The arguments presented by the Armstrongites and Adventist are carnal and foolish because they are they are the same GODLESS arguments USED BY THE ATHEISTS. The Adventist are actually preaching ATHEISM AND THEY ARE GLAD TO DO IT. T

All good "story telling" but none of it is actually Bible on your part B Humble. At some point during this dicussion - what the Bible actually says should be of interest. As you note -- even atheists can go on and on with "story telling" if one is to ignore the Bible to make doctrinal assertions.

I myself prefer scripture.

For example -

1. 1Thess 4 has a teaching about those "who have fallen asleep". Are you familiar with it?

2. 1Cor 15 tells us that death is "a sleep" and that APART from resurrection we have no hope at all.

3. John 11 "our FRIEND Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM".

4. Eccl 9 "The living know that they will die but the dead know NOT anything".

5. Matt 22 "God is NOT the God of the dead" (A PROOF of the doctrine of resurrection)

as for "Eternal torment" -

Matt 22 is clear that God "Destroys BOTH body AND SOUL in fiery hell".

Peter tells us that this kind of "destroy" is one that "reduces them to ashes".

in Christ,

Bob