True-believer Posted May 2, 2009 Author Posted May 2, 2009 There are many Christians besides SDAs, though, who believe in the non-immortality of the soul. If you go onto the campus's of Baptist colleges, for example, you would be surprised at the number of theology professors who do not believe in the immortality of the soul. Martin Luther didn't believe in it and neither did John Milton. Quite a few modern Bible scholars could be listed as among those who disbelieve in it. John Stott is one name that comes to mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stott I have attended the Baptist Bible College over here in South Australia, and the college itself teaches the Immortality of the soul. I have been to nearly all Baptist Churches---the extreme and also the carismatic ones---and they all believe in the Immortality of the soul. A part of sda's and the JW's, I have found no-one else who believes in soul-sleep. Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Moderators John317 Posted May 2, 2009 Moderators Posted May 2, 2009 You overreach to assert as fact that ‘they’ are both “metaphorical”. There is much of Gd’s creation that we – are unable either to apprehend or to comprehend. Such as the two referenced passages have to be taken literally – unless, one knows for a fact that they are beyond either Gd’s realm or ability – and therefor, to be taken – only as figurative. I believe in a Gd who can hear the blood of Able cry out from the ground. I believe that when Gd states that there are souls beneath an altar – I accept that as well as I accept that none of us can either describe or define the heavenly altar spoken of in Revelation 6:9. OK, so you believe that Abel's blood is literally crying out of the ground, is that right?!! You also believe that there are souls beneath the altar in heaven, even though you readily admit that there is no such thing as an immortal soul. That is, you admit that souls are subject to death, yet you believe somehow that souls are alive under the altar in heaven and that they think and talk like rational, living humans. Do you also believe that Jesus Christ is literally a pet lamb with a bleeding gash in its throat and that He rides a white horse and has a sword sticking out of His mouth? How about people going around with God's name literally written on their foreheads? Is Jesus literally the Root of David? Given your view of the Apocalypse, what in the world do you do with all those beasts and dragons and the drunken whore anyway? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
True-believer Posted May 2, 2009 Author Posted May 2, 2009 Unfortunately most never look into things for themselves and just listen to what others say. Actually Lutz13... Every Bible scholar that I know of all believe in the Immortality of the soul... and they all claim that it is biblical... and they all claim that they have sudied the Bible for themselves. Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Moderators John317 Posted May 2, 2009 Moderators Posted May 2, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 If you go onto the campus's of Baptist colleges, for example, you would be surprised at the number of theology professors who do not believe in the immortality of the soul. I have attended the Baptist Bible College over here in South Australia, and the college itself teaches the Immortality of the soul. I have been to nearly all Baptist Churches---the extreme and also the carismatic ones---and they all believe in the Immortality of the soul. Well, clearly I am not suggesting that as a whole Baptists do not believe in the immortality of the soul. Obviously they do. What I am saying is that there are a surprising number of the theology faculty in Baptist colleges who if asked will tell you that they don't believe in the immortality of the soul. A friend of mine who is now a Baptist pastor studied theology at California Baptist University near where I live. See: http://www.calbaptist.edu/ He told me that one of his professors asked for a show of hands of all those who believed in the immortality of the soul. Virtually every hand in the class was raised. All except the professor's. Then he asked how many did not believe in the immortality of the soul. No one's hand went up-- that is, no one's but the professors. He said that the professor told the class that probably 1/3 of the theology professors in the Baptist faculty didn't believe in the immortality of the soul. Don't be surprised at this. The truth is that there are many serious Bible students who are taking another look at this subject and some are concluding that the traditional or orthodox position is not supported by the Scriptures. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted May 2, 2009 Moderators Posted May 2, 2009 Originally Posted By: Lutz13 Unfortunately most never look into things for themselves and just listen to what others say. Actually Lutz13... Every Bible scholar that I know of all believe in the Immortality of the soul... and they all claim that it is biblical... and they all claim that they have sudied the Bible for themselves. I worked with a Baptist man who was in his third year of theology at the school I mentioned in my previous post. I was shocked when we began exchanging views of what happens when humans die, to discover that he didn't realize the original Greek manuscripts have no punctuation. My point is that they do study the Bible, but they generally only study material that is telling them what they already believe. It's important to frequently study books from a viewpoint that opposes your own. Keeps you honest. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted May 2, 2009 Moderators Posted May 2, 2009 Every Bible scholar that I know of all believe in the Immortality of the soul.. You must never have been on an SDA university campus. Have you gone to the large Baptist university or colleges and asked a faculty member in the theology department if he/she knows any faculty members who does not believe in the immortality of the soul? Have you gone to the university library and tried to find books that teach conditional immortality? They are there but you have to look for them. And most people aren't going to come to you and volunteer that they do not believe in the immortality of the soul. It's something you have to pursue and ask about. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
melvin mccarty Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 Well you just go ahead and talk out of both sides of your mouth. Have a good day......mel Quote
Lutz13 Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 Quote: Every Bible scholar that I know of all believe in the Immortality of the soul... and they all claim that it is biblical... and they all claim that they have sudied the Bible for themselves. There are also scholars that believe in the rapture. Most scholars also believe God is cruel and will make people suffer for eternity. You can read the whole bible and gain nothing out of it. It is when you pray, and take it verse by verse that you begin to understand it. Otherwise it will make no sense to you. Like when those people departed from Jesus because His teachings were too hard for them to understand. He said after they had left that His words are Spirit. So you will only ever understand the bible through the spirit. You must dwell on a verse until you understand it. You must make it your own. If that verse contradicts something later in the bible then you have something wrong. People who believe the soul is immortal I would think have something wrong. To the mortal when someone dies, they are dead. But to God when someone dies, they are but sleeping because He can call and wake them up. God is able to put us back together and He is able to remember everything about us. He doesn't need to go find our soul that is floating somewhere and put it in a bag of flesh. God is an artist. Not your typical human artist. But an artist that is able to create life. So all He would need to do is "redraw" us with all of our thoughts. I have always understood a soul to be a combination of dirt and Gods breath of life. Quote
jasd Posted May 3, 2009 Posted May 3, 2009 Quote: Quote:jasd ...forget “plain, good English”! it seems you either don’t pay attention or you don’t listen. I’ve, upon any number of occasions, proffered that: “there is no immortality of soul - where One exists who is able to destroy it” >>I'm glad you realize that there is no such thing as an immortal soul. Now realize also that since the soul is not immortal, it could not be literally alive under the altar. If it is alive, it is because it is not subject to death. That would mean by definition that it is immortal.<< Non sequitur. Quote
jasd Posted May 3, 2009 Posted May 3, 2009 Quote: Quote:jasd Again, conditions existed before the crucifixion of Jesus Christ – that no longer obtain. >>Give it your best case from the Scriptures. I want to hear here this one.<< At the risk of being repetitious, how about in the one instance, just taking Jesus Christ at His word? that's what it's all about, yes? Following: Jn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. The above depicts Martha rendering the OT belief which has since been espoused by such as the advocates of ‘soul-sleeping’. Jn 11:25 Jesus saith unto her, Jesus Christ, preparatory to enhancing or building upon Martha’s limited understanding... Jn 11:25 I am the resurrection, and the life: Jesus Christ, setting forth the authoritative “I am the...” [therefor, pay attention to what follows:]. Jn 11:25 ...he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet he shall live: Jesus Christ, reinforcing Martha’s perception per matters of resurrection and life... re, specifically, those saints who ‘sleep’ pre-crucifixion. (exceptions noted) Jn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall [never - never, never - ever, never - not, ain – no gonna] die. [/ed.jasd] Jesus Christ, in the emphatic, capisce?, positive sense of the passage... Jn 11:26 Believest thou this? The reinforcing query... Jesus Christ established in the above three verses – the disposition of two separate [though not entirely distinct] tagmae, that is, orders – re the redeemed saints; those who died pre-crucifixion in the promise of the anointed one, the Christ – and those who now depart this present existence in Jesus Christ, the actualized Redemptor, the Lord Gd. Quote
jasd Posted May 3, 2009 Posted May 3, 2009 Quote: Quote: Quote:John317 Do you believe that the altar is the same as Abraham's bosom? Quote:jasd How do you come by that? >>In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, the righteous are transported by angels to Abraham's bosom. If we somehow take Rev. 6: 9 literally-- despite the fact that, as you've conceded, there is no such thing as souls which are not subject to death-- then it would appear that the righteous are transported to a place under the altar in heaven rather than to Abraham's bosom. That is, unless you want to say one place is the same as the other. That is why I said that perhaps people get their choice of where they wish to go.<< Your hypothesis fails to factor in the crucifixion – and how it may have played into man’s journey from Genesis to Revelation – and beyond.. >>The curious thing is that in the parable, the angels transport dead people (not souls) to Abraham's bosom, and they go there bodily. Notice they have eyes and tongues and fingers.<< [/ed.jasd] In the dimensions (for wont of a better descriptive) where spirits dwell – angels eat manna. One assumes that manna has measurable consistency the other side of the veil, as it were, and given their recorded appearances in Holy Writ, angels eat as we might – and with that same organ they give praise to Gd. The foregoing assumptions consider that they may even sit a tables and use flatware – as we might. In that same realm – angels also utilize (or depend upon) chariots. Imagine, mebbe theys even got an interstellar equivalent of NASCAR! or is that only for us aw, gee shucks hayseeds? >>Souls, of course, do not have these body parts.<< Negatory, John317. Unless you are assigning a singular, or ‘peculiar’, definition to “souls”, the above is an unsustainable assertion. >>If they did, how could all those souls fit under the altar?<< So, exactly what is the altar of Revelation 6:9? (what do you think of such as Aboriginal's belief that our reality is but a dream? Sorta, mebbe like, ...to other beings beyond our limiting 'frequencies' - we are spirits and they - real. It may be that we are further constrained by our tabernacle flesh and blood. Do you suppose that the 'water' which poured from the pierced side of the crucified Jesus Christ - was a transformation of hyperplasma? inasmuch as blood proscribed ascension...) Quote
jasd Posted May 3, 2009 Posted May 3, 2009 >>OK, so you believe that Abel's blood is literally crying out of the ground, is that right?!!<< “My thoughts, unspoken, bestirred Gd that He should have mercy upon my very soul.” How can the above be taken literally? Ipso facto, falsity, yes? Again, I believe in a Gd who can hear the blood of Able cry out from the ground. I believe that when Gd states that there are souls beneath an altar – I accept that as well as I accept that none of us can either describe or define the heavenly altar spoken of in Revelation 6:9. >>You also believe that there are souls beneath the altar in heaven, even though you readily admit that there is no such thing as an immortal soul. That is, you admit that souls are subject to death, yet you believe somehow that souls are alive under the altar in heaven and that they think and talk like rational, living humans.<< [/ed.jasd] Have you reviewed Revelation 19:1-8? So, conversely, do you subscribe to Moses and Elijah having been and currently are in heaven? and do you think that – they thought/think and talked/talk like rational, living humans? >>Do you also believe that Jesus Christ is literally a pet lamb with a bleeding gash in its throat and that He rides a white horse and has a sword sticking out of His mouth?<< Sometimes, John317, I despair of you. Did I not, just the other day submit, to wit: “Not so, John317. It is a book containing symbols, but it is not a book of symbols.” >>How about people going around with God's name literally written on their foreheads?<< Seen or unseen? >>Is Jesus literally the Root of David?<< Which of the following would not literally apply? Root: 4. An essential part or element; the basic core: 5. A primary source; an origin.. 7. a. The condition of being settled and of belonging to a particular place or society. Secondly, per Rev 22:16 ...I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star. Is the above underlined conjunction conjugal? or mebbe, the clause better expresses a synonymity? >>Given your view of the Apocalypse, what in the world do you do with all those beasts and dragons and the drunken whore anyway?<< “...It is a book containing symbols, but it is not a book of symbols.” Having reprised the immediately above..., it may interest you to know that we may actually agree upon a small point or two re the “...beasts and dragons and the drunken whore...”. Addendum: in one of my previous posts I referred to "sympathetic infections". It ought to have more exactly read: 'sympathetic dying'. Quote
Twilight Posted May 3, 2009 Posted May 3, 2009 Originally Posted By: Twilight Hey my friend, do you have any further thoughts on Romans, where Paul states the Holy Spirit communes with our spirit. I know you asked me my thoughts, I think it means exactly what it said, but I notice you did not respond to that text yourself. Twilight. Keep in mind the following meaning of the word "spirit"[Greek: pneuma] in the NT-- Strong's #4151. pneuma pnyoo'-mah from 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare 5590. In Romans 8: 16, I believe that "our spirit" is referring to our minds or our consciousness. It is saying that in our minds we are aware of the assurance the Holy Spirit gives that we are children of God. Compare how Paul uses "spirit" in Romans 1: 9; also see 1 Cor. 5: 3, 4; 14: 14. Compare 3 translations of Romans 8: 16: Quote: 1) Contemporary English Version-- God's Spirit makes us sure that we are his children. 2) John Darby's Translation (literal)-- The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God. 3) Amplified-- The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God. Now look at the previous verse, Romans 8: 15, and see how the word "spirit" is used there: Quote: 1) Young's Literal Translation8:15 for ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye did receive a spirit of adoption in which we cry, 'Abba -- Father.' 2) World English Bible 8:15 For you didn't receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, 'Abba! Father!' 3) Weymouth New Testament 8:15 You have not for the second time acquired the consciousness of being--a consciousness which fills you with terror. But you have acquired a deep inward conviction of having been adopted as sons--a conviction which prompts us to cry aloud, 'Abba! our Father!' My reservation here would be that Paul knew the word for mind quite clearly. So I would suspect that spirit is the correct translation here. God bless, Twilight Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Moderators John317 Posted May 3, 2009 Moderators Posted May 3, 2009 Quote: Quote:jasd ...forget “plain, good English”! it seems you either don’t pay attention or you don’t listen. I’ve, upon any number of occasions, proffered that: “there is no immortality of soul - where One exists who is able to destroy it” >>I'm glad you realize that there is no such thing as an immortal soul. Now realize also that since the soul is not immortal, it could not be literally alive under the altar. If it is alive, it is because it is not subject to death. That would mean by definition that it is immortal.<< Non sequitur. How could the soul of a dead person not be immortal if it is alive in heaven? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted May 3, 2009 Moderators Posted May 3, 2009 My reservation here would be that Paul knew the word for mind quite clearly. So I would suspect that spirit is the correct translation here. There's nothing wrong at all with the translation of "spirit" in Romans 8: 16. But that fact alone doesn't tell us what "spirit" means in the verse. For that we have to study other verses in the Bible that use the same word in the same way. In that context, pneuma refers to "inner life, self; disposition, state of mind." It's the same thing as saying, "The Holy Spirit bears witness to us." That's how the Contemporary English Version reads: God's Spirit makes us sure that we are his children. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Twilight Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 Originally Posted By: Twilight My reservation here would be that Paul knew the word for mind quite clearly. So I would suspect that spirit is the correct translation here. There's nothing wrong at all with the translation of "spirit" in Romans 8: 16. But that fact alone doesn't tell us what "spirit" means in the verse. For that we have to study other verses in the Bible that use the same word in the same way. In that context, pneuma refers to "inner life, self; disposition, state of mind." It's the same thing as saying, "The Holy Spirit bears witness to us." That's how the Contemporary English Version reads: God's Spirit makes us sure that we are his children. It is an interesting subject which I did go through quite exhaustively once, but would have to dig my study out again. I am of the personal conviction that we have a spirit, that it is the gift of God, but it is a little more personal than a "breath" from God. Not that it is immortal. But I wonder if us adventists have thrown the baby out with the bathwater on this one. God bless, Twilight. Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Moderators Kevin H Posted May 4, 2009 Moderators Posted May 4, 2009 It is wise to take a concordance and do a word study on "Sheol." As Seventh-day Adventists we are deffinetely on the right track and that the idea that if you go to heaven or hell upon death is not Biblical. People point to Paul talking about being absent from the Body and pressent with the Lord as an argument of going to heaven when they die. But looking at Paul's passages you notice that Paul has three stages that he talks about twice, once in 1 Cor the other in 2 Cor. The first compairs to like a grain going into the ground and raising up in a new plant. The second 2 Cor 5 is where we are living in a body that's a tent, tabernacle, but looking forward to the house body the Lord is making of us and how he wants us to be in that house body, but does not want us to be naked. 2 Cor 5:4 says "We that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up in life." Here again is the three stages: The grain and the tent, or earthly tabernacle is life. Paul looked for living in the new body pictured as the new plant and the house body which is absent from the tent body and pressent wtih the Lord. However there is the period of the seed in the ground, and that while Paul wishes he was out of the tent body and in the house body that is pressent with the Lord, that he does not want to be naked (the time between the two bodies, i.e. death) Paul does not see himself as leaving the tent to the house but that there is a time of nakedness he did not want to dwell on just mention in passing that he does not want to be naked, that naked time is death. Paul sees being dressed in the tent as better than being naked, but not as good as being in the house. Being burdened in this tent is not as good as the house but it sure beats being naked. How many suicides could have been prevented had we followed Pauls advice about looking forward to that body that will be present with the Lord instead of this earthly tent, but being in this earthly tent with all it's pains are still better than being naked / dead. Quote
guibox Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 Yes Kevin, in context, 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 is speaking of the resurrection, and not a disembodied soul at our physical death. The language cross sectioned with 1 Corinthians 15 is unmistakable. It amazes me how some people can accuse us of using out of context proof texts to prove the validity of the Sabbath, conditional immortality and annihilation, but will take this ONE verse and come to this erroneous conclusion without looking at the surrounding passages. Quote www.corbel.theacaistory.com
BobRyan Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 It is an interesting subject which I did go through quite exhaustively once, but would have to dig my study out again. I am of the personal conviction that we have a spirit, that it is the gift of God, but it is a little more personal than a "breath" from God. Not that it is immortal. But I wonder if us adventists have thrown the baby out with the bathwater on this one. God bless, Twilight. indeed. When someone "gets the breath knocked out of them" even SDAs can not bring themsevles to say "well then they must have been resurrected". Infact - when someone dies - even SDAs have no expectation at all that a puff of "breath" goes zipping up through the atmosphere and into outer space on it's way to God. Christ was Correct in Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are UNABLE to kill the soul". Christ was correct in John 11 "Our friend Lazarus SLEEPS" Christ is correct in 1Thess 4 "I do not want you to be unninformed about those who ARE asleep" 1Thess 4 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. Christ said "into Thy Hands I commend my Spirit" as if that actually had meaning -- indeed it does. 2Cor 5:1-8 makes it clear that the unclothed state "of the person" is the state of death. The "person" exists - but in an unclothed state without EITHER the decaying "earthly tent" and without the "eternal heavenly tent". And the "meaning" is that you no longer need this old body at the resurrection "to still be the same YOU". In fact YOU can get an entirely NEW body because that which makes YOU -- YOU has nothing to do with the body that "you now have". in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 Hey my friend, do you have any further thoughts on Romans, where Paul states the Holy Spirit communes with our spirit. I know you asked me my thoughts, I think it means exactly what it said, but I notice you did not respond to that text yourself. Twilight. Good point. It does not mean "The Holy Spirit bears witness with our breath". Neither does it mean -- the holy breath bears witness with our breath. You can not simply insert this idea of "breath" every time you see that word. in fact it is interesting that a Danile and perhaps one other OT were fond of saying that in vision there was "no breath left in me"-- another example of "not a resurrection" when they start to breathe again. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 John, what I think Bob is saying is that literally, the 'soul sleeps'. We never cease to exist, but neither are we consciously alive in either heaven or hell. This is what William Tyndale believed. We do not truly 'live' until the resurrection where our 'consciousness' takes shape in a spiritual body and we then are 'alive' and 'woken up' at the call of Christ. Correct me if I'm wrong, Bob That is correct. The soul exists - but is dormant. There is no "consciousness" in that state. The soul simply sleeps. The cognative experience the one who dies is such that at the moment of death - the saint experiences the resurrection and the 2nd coming. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 Originally Posted By: BobRyan The person EXISTS but in an unclothed stated. What part of us did God give that is not subject to death? Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 A third point is that nothing is said to indicate that this "spirit" is a conscious entity. God did not breath a conscious entity into Adam and therefore it is not a conscious entity when it leaves our body at death. Adam became a conscious entity when the breath of life and the body were united. That is when he "became a living soul." When the breath of life leaves his body, Adam dies and returns to the dust (Gen. 3: 19; Ecc. 3: 19, 20) and this breath of life that God gave to Adam returns to God. I never argue that "sleep means conscious". It means unconsious. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Moderators John317 Posted May 4, 2009 Moderators Posted May 4, 2009 Originally Posted By: Twilight Hey my friend, do you have any further thoughts on Romans, where Paul states the Holy Spirit communes with our spirit. I know you asked me my thoughts, I think it means exactly what it said, but I notice you did not respond to that text yourself. Twilight. Good point. It does not mean "The Holy Spirit bears witness with our breath". pneuma, of course, has more than one meaning. Strong's #4151. pneuma pnyoo'-mah from 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare 5590. Neither was Jesus saying "I commit my immortal spirit into your hands." He was saying he was committing his whole life into God's hands and that He had faith that God would bring Him back to life. He was not saying He would continue to exist as a person while he was dead. We no more continue to exist as an individual than a dog does during death. Apart from God's power to raise us back to life again, we would be in the same condition and have the same lack of hope that a dog does. The process of death for people and for dogs is the same. God told Adam, "YOU will return to dust." He did not say, "Your body will return to dust but you will continue to exist." In death, we cease to be. After the first time we die, God will raise us back to life. This gives us hope. Otherwise there would be absolutely no hope. You use the word "dormant." What text do you get that from? Also, are you saying the "spirit" that returns to God is the person is some sense? If so, in what sense are we that spirit that returns to God? Where does the Bible give us reason to believe this "spirit" continues to live after our death? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted May 4, 2009 Moderators Posted May 4, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 A third point is that nothing is said to indicate that this "spirit" is a conscious entity. God did not breath a conscious entity into Adam and therefore it is not a conscious entity when it leaves our body at death. Adam became a conscious entity when the breath of life and the body were united. That is when he "became a living soul." When the breath of life leaves his body, Adam dies and returns to the dust (Gen. 3: 19; Ecc. 3: 19, 20) and this breath of life that God gave to Adam returns to God. I never argue that "sleep means conscious". It means unconsious. OK, good point. But you must believe that the "spirit" which returns to God is in some sense an individual entity and that it is kept alive, right? "Dormant" implies that something is not dead but kept inactive and unconscious. The idea that we are merely "dormant" after the death of the body still seems to contradict Scripture which says that when we die, the whole person dies. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.