Life After Death???

[Robert]

I have no doubt that our creator died for our sins.

[phkrause]

Do you own a set of the SDA Bible commentary's? If you look up Psalms 139:8 it says to compare it to Proverbs 15:11. This is in volume 3, plus volume 7A EGW says about Psalms 139:8, "No solitude without God." "The psalmist represents the presence of the Infinite One as pervading the universe. "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." We can never find a solitude where God is not. The ever watching eye of Omniscience is upon all our works, and although He can marshal the armies of heaven to do his will, He condescends to accept the services of frail, erring mortals." And like Rob was also saying there are plenty of metaphors in the Bible.

pk

[John317]

From the Bible, I have quoted passages that say the soul forgets, the soul hears, the soul cries out, and the souls of some in Sheol have expressed happiness when their enemies joined them. Most Bible texts about death run along the same lines. Therefore my original statement that most of the Bible teaches consciousness in death stands. If the creation stories had said anything about death, I would have quoted...

Have you studied how God made man?

What does Gen. 2: 7 say man became after God made the body and breathed the breath of life into him? Does it say man was given a soul or does it say man became a soul?

The first mention of "soul" [Hebrew, nephish] in the Bible is concerning the animals. See Gen. 1: 20. The animals are souls, too. Also notice in the book of Revelation that it refers to the "souls" in the sea-- i.e., fish.

Finally, what does Gen. 3: 19 say about death? What did God tell us would happen when we die?

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

From the Bible, I have quoted passages that say the soul forgets, the soul hears, the soul cries out, and the souls of some in Sheol have expressed happiness when their enemies joined them. Most Bible texts about death run along the same lines. Therefore my original statement that most of the Bible teaches consciousness in death stands. If the creation stories had said anything about death, I would have quoted...

Have you studied how God made man?

What does Gen. 2: 3 say man became after God made the body and breathed the breath of life into him? Does it say man was given a soul or does it say man became a soul?

The first mention of "soul" [Hebrew, nephish] in the Bible is concerning the animals. See Gen. 1: 20. The animals are souls, too. Also notice in the book of Revelation that it refers to the "souls" in the sea-- i.e., fish.

Finally, what does Gen. 3: 19 say about death? What did God tell us would happen when we die?

Yes, of course I have been taught the SDA arguments, but I think there is more to it than that. Gen. 2:7 says that man became a living soul. I knew that's what you meant, and I'm not the kind of person who makes fun of mistakes and typos.

And Although Rev. 16:3 says the vial kills every soul in the sea, I would think it was referring to Sailors, as well as every other living creature. People are souls, but a soul is also something else in the Bible. But I don't see in Gen. 1:20 that it says animals are souls. However, I see that "nephesh" is used to mean many different things, including animals and fish. Gen. 3:19 agrees with other Bible texts which say the physical body returns to dust. And while most of Ecclesiastes needs to be prefaced with the phrase "without God," in chapter 12 it says that the spirit goes back to God who gave it. However, when I checked closely, I noticed this refers to the breath of life (ruwach), and not soul (nephesh). But I still believe the soul goes to God. And it is possible to harmonize this with the soul going to Sheol, because the Psalmist says that God is in Sheol, among other places. I know the SDA position is that the soul just ceases to exist, but that does not agree with so many texts. I know it is reasonable that in death we are not conscious, but to say that for sure would be mere speculation, and would disagree with all those texts I quoted and many others. Fortunately, we do not have to know the nature of death in order to be saved.

[Robert]

Fortunately, we do not have to know the nature of death in order to be saved.

True, but....

The rejection of this truth could lead to one being deluded and pulled out of Christ. Take 2 Thess 2:3

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day [the 2nd coming of Christ] will not come unless the falling away comes first....

What is this "falling away"? It's apostasy. For example, in Gal 5:4, we read:

You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law [your goodness]; you have fallen from grace.

So it's possible to fall from grace because of legalism, right? Now what does Christ say concerning the goodness/righteousness of mankind? Let me help you:

"No one is good but One, that is, God." Matt 19:17 And Paul agrees: "There is none, good, no not even one." Romans 3:12

Paul also links "goodness" with incorruption and corruption with "sin". Let's look at this:

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep [remain dead], but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet [the 2nd coming]. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be [future tense] raised incorruptible [sinless], and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible [sinful life] must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when [again, at the 2nd coming] this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

You see right now you don't have victory over death. You are going to die...not part of you, put all of you. You are going to return to dust. "For dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." [Gen 3:19] Nothing in you is good...therefore you are mortal. You will die. You are corrupt!!

If you don't believe this then you will be deceived. You will think, "You know, something in me is good and therefore I can play a part in my salvation." That is legalism, subtle, yes...but nevertheless legalism.

Now back to Thess:

"and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity is already at work; only He [God] who now restrains will do so until he [the man of sin] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth [which is Jesus Christ and His righteousness alone], that they might be saved."

Like I said, if you believe that the dead aren't really dead, then you are headed for trouble when God releases "the man of sin" and his bag of tricks. You will renounce the gospel and be lost.

Rob

[Robert]

What does Gen. 2: 7 say man became after God made the body and breathed the breath of life into him? Does it say man was given a soul or does it say man became a soul?

"And mankind became a living soul"...

When Genesis says "God breathed into Adam the breath of life" it doesn't mean oxygen. It means the divine spark of life, which can only come from God. And this spark (which is also a metaphor) is used to describe something that can't be described. How could God take dirt, form a man out of it, and then make it live? We don't know, so God has to use metaphors because we can't comprehend His work.....It simply says,

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

[John317]

Although Rev. 16:3 says the vial kills every soul in the sea, I would think it was referring to Sailors, as well as every other living creature.

Rev. 16: 3 is primarily a reference to all living things, not people, in the oceans. But of course any people in the ocean would also die.

The New American Standard Version:

The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living thing [Gk. psyche; Strongs #5590] in the sea died.

Amplified Version:

.... and every living thing that was in the sea perished.

Strong's Number: 5590 Browse Lexicon

Original Word Word Origin

Transliterated Word

Psuche

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

psoo-khay' Noun Feminine

Definition

breath

the breath of life

the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing 1a

of animals 1a

of men

life

that in which there is life

a living being, a living soul

the soul

the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)

the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life

the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

King James Word Usage - Total: 105

soul 58, life 40, mind 3, heart 1, heartily + (1537)&version=kjv 1, not translated 2

Quote:

People are souls, but a soul is also something else in the Bible. But I don't see in Gen. 1:20 that it says animals are souls. However, I see that "nephesh" is used to mean many different things, including animals and fish. People are souls, but a soul is also something else in the Bible. But I don't see in Gen. 1:20 that it says animals are souls. People are souls, but a soul is also something else in the Bible. But I don't see in Gen. 1:20 that it says animals are souls. However, I see that "nephesh" is used to mean many different things, including animals and fish.

Here's the literal translation of some verses with reference to the animals in the creation narrative:

Gen. 1: 20, 21, 24, 30-- (Darby Translation)

And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living souls [nephesh], and let fowl fly above the earth in the expanse of the heavens.

21And God created the great sea monsters, and every living soul [nephesh] that moves with which the waters swarm, after their kind, and every winged fowl after its kind. And God saw that it was good.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth living souls [nephesh] after their kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth, after their kind. And it was so.

30 and to every animal of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to everything that creepeth on the earth, in which is a living soul [nephesh], every green herb for food. And it was so.

[oldsailor29]

I can see that soul is any living thing which breathes. But I believe the Bible also uses soul referring to a spiritual being which is still conscious after the physical body is gone. The verses I quoted support this, so it is more than speculation. Whereas, saying that there is no consciousness in death is not actually supported by scripture, and therefore is speculation.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What does Gen. 2: 7 say man became after God made the body and breathed the breath of life into him? Does it say man was given a soul or does it say man became a soul?

"And mankind became a living soul"...

When Genesis says "God breathed into Adam the breath of life" it doesn't mean oxygen. It means the divine spark of life, which can only come from God. And this spark (which is also a metaphor) is used to describe something that can't be described. How could God take dirt, form a man out of it, and then make it live? We don't know, so God has to use metaphors because we can't comprehend His work.....It simply says,

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Yes, as you say, the "breath of life" is more than mere wind or air. It is more like an electrical current that causes a bulb to light up.

Adam's body without the breath of life was like the cold, dark bulb.

God's breathing into Adam's nostrils the breath of life was like the connecting of the bulb to the electric current. At this point Adam began to breath and experience all the life functions. Similarly the bulb begins to put off light when the electricity is flowing through it.

[John317]

I know the SDA position is that the soul just ceases to exist, but that does not agree with so many texts. I know it is reasonable that in death we are not conscious, but to say that for sure would be mere speculation, and would disagree with all those texts I quoted and many others. Fortunately, we do not have to know the nature of death in order to be saved.

My wife was Catholic when we got married. Virtually her whole family are Roman Catholic. I used to drive her to the Catholic church from time to time where she would light candles and pray for her parents and a sister who had died. My wife and her sisters paid priests to say special prayers because they weren't sure if the parents and the dead sister were suffering or not. They felt that it was best to assume they could still be in purgatory. That was better than assuming they could be in heaven if they aren't.

She changed her mind over a period of years as she read the Bible and read books and magazines I left around the house. Then one day she asked if she could go to church with me. About 2 years later, she was baptized.

During her first year as an SDA she met two different women and within a short time they were both baptized.

One of her sisters told her that she was afraid of her dead husband coming back to visit her. She studied the Bible on that topic with that sister, and now she tells my wife she is glad to know the truth about what happens when people die.

My wife and her family are from Mexico.

What we're talking about here rather theoretically on this thread has practical consequences for millions and millions of people.

Ecc. 9: 5 says that the dead do not know anything. Do you believe that the Bible contains two different, contrary teachings in regard the dead-- one that says the dead know nothing and another that says the dead actually know quite a bit? (Some believe the dead know much more than the living.)

I realize that there are some verses that could be taken either way, but if you look at the clearest texts on the state of the dead, how would you characterize the Bible's view of the dead and of death?

If you had to choose several verses that teach clearly what you believe, what verses would they be?

[John317]

And while most of Ecclesiastes needs to be prefaced with the phrase "without God," in chapter 12 it says that the spirit goes back to God who gave it. However, when I checked closely, I noticed this refers to the breath of life (ruwach), and not soul (nephesh). But I still believe the soul goes to God. And it is possible to harmonize this with the soul going to Sheol, because the Psalmist says that God is in Sheol, among other places.

Ecc. 9: 5 is a very clear statement: "The dead do not know anything."

This agrees with a number of other verses that say, "The dead do not praise the Lord."

There are others that say, "The dead do not return to their homes."

Is there a Bible verse that says, "The dead know something"?

Is it possible the Bible contains so many contradictory viewpoints on this matter that we can't possibly know the truth about it?

Finally, do you believe the Bible is a reliable guide on what happens when people die?

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

Fortunately, we do not have to know the nature of death in order to be saved.

Like I said, if you believe that the dead aren't really dead, then you are headed for trouble when God releases "the man of sin" and his bag of tricks. You will renounce the gospel and be lost.

Rob

Who are these souls in Sheol all through the Bible if they are not the souls of the dead? They are forgetful. That indicates consciousness. They welcome new souls to Sheol. That indicates consciousness. They cry to God. That indicates consciousness. They can hear the voice of God and they can be awakened. And that indicates consciousness. These people are dead, no question about that, but scriptures indicate their souls are in Sheol and still have some faint consciousness. And we have no way of knowing if those scriptures are correct, but I'll accept them until they are proven wrong.

Are you sure I am going to be lost?

[jasd]

>>In Israel, according the Bible, the dead are taboo and cause a person to be ritually unclean. Therefore the Bible discourages anyone from thinking of the dead as holy.<<

2 Kings 13:21 ...and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

Perhaps, “ritually unclean” sometimes addressed the matter of hygienics, yes?

[jasd]

The tendency to casually dismiss any import that might obtain betwixt pre and post-crucifixion;

the exegeses stemming from an opaque defining of dead/death; the failure to apprehend Writ’s notation re the cleaving of spirit from soul and what that implies; the disregard of the principles of First Fruits; all exposition attempting to separate NT saints from the promise of Jesus Christ as recorded by St John in his 11th chapter, verse 26 – whilst,

dogmatically attributing like to OT men who Jesus Christ specifically precluded having ascended to heaven by His statement in John 3:13; disregard of texts in Revelations which depict NT saints in the heavenlies; the assumption that phrases such as ‘from the face of the earth’ and ‘under the sun’ either impart nothing to the exegete or is no more than metaphoric;

the juxtaposition of the literal and the figurative; etc – perplex me :-(

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Like I said, if you believe that the dead aren't really dead, then you are headed for trouble when God releases "the man of sin" and his bag of tricks. You will renounce the gospel and be lost.

Rob

Who are these souls in Sheol all through the Bible if they are not the souls of the dead? They are forgetful. That indicates consciousness. They welcome new souls to Sheol. That indicates consciousness. They cry to God. That indicates consciousness. They can hear the voice of God and they can be awakened. And that indicates consciousness. These people are dead, no question about that, but scriptures indicate their souls are in Sheol and still have some faint consciousness. And we have no way of knowing if those scriptures are correct, but I'll accept them until they are proven wrong. [/quote']

You would need to look carefully at each of the verses you mentioned and judge them on their own merits in their contexts.

Check out the following very interesting, worth-while book, which seriously examines all of the points you make here:

http://www.edwardfudge.com/written/fire.html

Quote:

Are you sure I am going to be lost?

No, no one here is saying you will be lost. We don't know that, and we can't judge. I am sure that isn't what Rob means. He is saying that (he can correct me if I'm wrong) that God gives us the truth about death as a way of protecting us from the tricks of Satan. Look how he used the lies about death with Eve. She believed him and she consequently helped to bring all humanity into sin and death.

There will many deceptions in regard to the state of man in death, and we know that if we are ignorant of Satan's devices, it will be that much easier for Satan and His followers to cause us to fall. Those who believe Satan and the "man of sin" at the end will be lost. See Rev. 14 to 19.

[John317]

>>In Israel, according the Bible, the dead are taboo and cause a person to be ritually unclean. Therefore the Bible discourages anyone from thinking of the dead as holy.<<

2 Kings 13:21 ...and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

Perhaps, “ritually unclean” sometimes addressed the matter of hygienics, yes?

That was an unusual event. For the typical view of the dead, see Numbers 9: 6, 7, 10, and many,many more. People were not made holy by being in contact with dead bodies. People were defiled.

[Robert]

Who are these souls in Sheol all through the Bible if they are not the souls of the dead? They are forgetful. That indicates consciousness. They welcome new souls to Sheol. That indicates consciousness. They cry to God. That indicates consciousness.

Mr Sailor,

Go with the clear verses and don't get side-tracked on translation issues, symbols and metaphors. Immortality is given to those who are sinless....Since we are sinful, although maturing, we are mortal. To denounce this truth is legalistic and self-righteous and it rejects your need of Christ. We are rotten to the core...we are selfish...we are self-centered...we are born in love with self and all we do, outside Christ, is all for our good. We were conceived in iniquity...meaning we were born bent-to-self and hence we are 100% mortal. When we die everything goes. Nothing remains, nothing. Our only hope is the resurrection.

[Robert]

He is saying that (he can correct me if I'm wrong) that God gives us the truth about death as a way of protecting us from the tricks of Satan.

The biggest trick of Satan, to me, will be over the state of the dead.

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: jasd

>>In Israel, according the Bible, the dead are taboo and cause a person to be ritually unclean. Therefore the Bible discourages anyone from thinking of the dead as holy.<<

2 Kings 13:21 ...and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

Perhaps, “ritually unclean” sometimes addressed the matter of hygienics, yes?

That was an unusual event. For the typical view of the dead, see Numbers 9: 6, 7, 10, and many,many more. People were not made holy by being in contact with dead bodies. People were defiled.

Yes, this was an unusual event. It also goes to prove, as did the story of king Saul and the witch of Endor, that a dead prophet of God is more powerful than a live king. This should alert those who are wise, to be careful what you say about EGW. Of course it is the power of God to which I refer. For just as Ecclesiastes says, "Without God, it is better to be a live dog than a dead lion." (Without God is a given in Ecclesiastes.)

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

Who are these souls in Sheol all through the Bible if they are not the souls of the dead? They are forgetful. That indicates consciousness. They welcome new souls to Sheol. That indicates consciousness. They cry to God. That indicates consciousness.

Mr Sailor,

Go with the clear verses and don't get side-tracked on translation issues, symbols and metaphors. Immortality is given to those who are sinless....Since we are sinful, although maturing, we are mortal. To denounce this truth is legalistic and self-righteous and it rejects your need of Christ. We are rotten to the core...we are selfish...we are self-centered...we are born in love with self and all we do, outside Christ, is all for our good. We were conceived in iniquity...meaning we were born bent-to-self and hence we are 100% mortal. When we die everything goes. Nothing remains, nothing. Our only hope is the resurrection.

If there is nothing remaining, then it seems to me that there would be nothing to resurrect. Without God all is vanity, and there is nothing after our mortal life, including resurrection.

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: John317

He is saying that (he can correct me if I'm wrong) that God gives us the truth about death as a way of protecting us from the tricks of Satan.

The biggest trick of Satan, to me, will be over the state of the dead.

The only protection from the deceptions of Satan is our faith. Our faith that Jesus is God, and following His teachings, will be the sign of His people.

As the end comes closer, His people will narrow their studies more and more, 'til all they have time to study are the teachings of Jesus. His people will fill their minds with His teachings, His commandments. He, and He alone, will lead His people through the time of trouble.

Remember, Jesus is God.

Have faith in God

Our true foundation stone

Have faith in God

Our King upon His throne

Have faith in God

And faith in Him alone

Have faith dear friend, in God.

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The biggest trick of Satan' date=' to me, will be over the state of the dead.

[/quote']

The only protection from the deceptions of Satan is our faith. Our faith that Jesus is God, and following His teachings, will be the sign of His people.

As the end comes closer, His people will narrow their studies more and more, 'til all they have time to study are the teachings of Jesus. His people will fill their minds with His teachings, His commandments. He, and He alone, will lead His people through the time of trouble.

Remember, Jesus is God.

Have faith in God

Our true foundation stone

Have faith in God

Our King upon His throne

Have faith in God

And faith in Him alone

Have faith dear friend, in God.

I always enjoyed the little "Have Faith In God" poems by H.M.S. Richards on his "Voice Of Prophecy" radio program, when I was not so old. Now I just make up my own.

[Robert]

If there is nothing remaining, then it seems to me that there would be nothing to resurrect. Without God all is vanity, and there is nothing after our mortal life, including resurrection.

Man, you are hard egg to crack.... teehe

Look, what was Adam before he became a living soul. From what did God make Adam of? The dirt of ground! And then He breathed into Adam the breath of life. When Adam died (note - died) He went back to dust where he came from. His life ended.

When God comes back He could simply fashion Adam out of the dust of the ground at the resurrection, but in a moment...in the twinkling of eye....God created Adam once, He can re-create him again....

[Robert]

The only protection from the deceptions of Satan is our faith.

Faith in what? Faith in ourselves? Faith in our performance? Faith in our goodness? No, faith in Christ. We need Christ because we are sinful...we are mortal and we need a way out of the grave.

[Robert]

the story of king Saul and the witch of Endor,

Samuel was dead. Satan impersonated him. Saul knew it was Samuel because he was fully deceived.