Life After Death???

[John317]

The person EXISTS but in an unclothed stated.

What part of us did God give that is not subject to death?

In what sense are you saying "the person exists" between death and the resurrection? I believe the Bible teaches that the person is only alive and exists as a living soul when body and the breath of life are united. When these are not united, there is no living soul or living person. At that point you have a dead soul or dead person.

Is there anything in John 11 which shows that Lazarus in any way survived death?

Do you believe that Jesus caused Lazarus' spirit or soul to come down from heaven or from anywhere else and reunite with his body?

[guibox]

John, what I think Bob is saying is that literally, the 'soul sleeps'. We never cease to exist, but neither are we consciously alive in either heaven or hell.

This is what William Tyndale believed. We do not truly 'live' until the resurrection where our 'consciousness' takes shape in a spiritual body and we then are 'alive' and 'woken up' at the call of Christ.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Bob

[John317]

John, what I think Bob is saying is that literally, the 'soul sleeps'. We never cease to exist, but neither are we consciously alive in either heaven or hell.

This is what William Tyndale believed. We do not truly 'live' until the resurrection where our 'consciousness' takes shape in a spiritual body and we then are 'alive' and 'woken up' at the call of Christ.

But in what sense does the "soul sleep"?

I agree with you that Bob is saying that "literally, the 'soul sleeps.'" But is that what actually takes place in death? Is the soul literally sleeping?

"Sleeping" in relation to death is a metaphor. The dead do not literally sleep. Genuine, "literal sleep" occurs when the heart is still beating and the person's brain and lungs and all the other organs of the body are functioning. The NT uses the expression of "sleep" because of the resurrection. Without the resurrection, the dead would not be said to be "sleeping" at all. It is called "sleep" because there will be an awakening, but it will not be an awakening as from a literal sleep but from literal death. The awakening will be supernatural and from what would otherwise be eternal death except for God's mercy.

My point is that apart from the fact of the future resurrection, there is nothing about dead humans that is different from dead dogs or cats. This is what Ecc. 3: 19, 20 is saying. Without the promise of God of a resurrection because of Christ's death and resurrection, believers would have no more hope than a dead fish. That is what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 15: 18. Apart from that, the dead are utterly and completely perished.

[jasd]

QR frame:

Umm, guys, there is a reason that the OT is called the Old Testament and the NT is called the New testament. I think it has something to do with

the crucifixion of the Redeemer..., which represented a

sea change in the affairs of man and the disposition of heaven.

Second,

And thus spake the Somnambulant from his grave...

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, doest thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb

...but wait, he speaks? in his sleep, right? Then again, the above texts speak of heaven, yes?

[Lutz13]

Quote:

"God is able to destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28.

Bob, I believe it says fear "him" who is able to kill body and soul. Not God.

[melvin mccarty]

YOU made an unsupportble claim! All of a person's lifetime of memories and everything that makes an individual is preserved obviously. Where and how it is preserved may be be debatable but if you believe in a resurrection you must admit their existence. No need to deny obvious facts....mel

Well?

mel

[John317]

And thus spake the Somnambulant from his grave...

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, doest thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb

...but wait, he speaks? in his sleep, right? Then again, the above texts speak of heaven, yes?

The book of Revelation is a book of symbols. Rev. 1: 1 tells it that it was "sign-i-fied," or put into signs and symbols.

The dead don't literally go under the altar, any more than an animal comes out of the earth or out of the sea with all those heads, etc. The dead are portrayed as being there symbolically. If you accept it literally, you will also have to accept Gen. 4: 10, 11 as literal. "The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground."

[John317]

...YOU made an unsupportble claim! All of a person's lifetime of memories and everything that makes an individual is preserved obviously. Where and how it is preserved may be be debatable but if you believe in a resurrection you must admit their existence. No need to deny obvious facts....

Can you show from Scripture that a person's soul or some other part of him is "preserved" between death and the resurrection? The only thing we know for sure is that God resurrects the dead who are in their graves when Jesus comes. There is absolutely no indication that some part of the dead goes from someplace back to the dead body before the resurrection.

If any part of us does not die but remains alive after death, it means that it is immortal. Immortal means "not subject to death." It seems to me you are saying that something of us is not subject to death. I am saying the Bible teaches that ALL of us-- the whole person-- is subject to death. We completely die. Nothing of us survives death.

Are you saying that in order for God to bring people back from death and raise us to life, He must "preserve" some part of us during the time between death and the resurrection? The God of the universe, who made humans and all other life-forms, is not dependent on "preserved, sleeping/dormant souls" in order to raise millions of individuals from the grave.

[melvin mccarty]

Seems the Bible mentions record books or did that just not fit with your present arguement so you ignored it? ....mel

[John317]

Seems the Bible mentions record books or did that just not fit with your present arguement so you ignored it? ....mel

Yes, there is a record kept of all our thoughts and words and actions and much else besides. But are you saying you think that those records have to do with God's ability to bring us back to life? God has no need of books and records.

Those books are for the purpose of examining our lives, not for the purpose of "preserving us" between death and the resurrection. God does not need them; they are for other beings who do not read the mind and heart and who are not all-knowing as God is.

Explain your thinking about this and present reasons and evidence.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

And thus spake the Somnambulant from his grave...

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, doest thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb

...but wait, he speaks? in his sleep, right? Then again, the above texts speak of heaven, yes?

>>The book of Revelation is a book of symbols.<<

Not so, John317. It is a book containing symbols, but it is not a book of symbols.

>>Rev. 1:1 tells it that it was "sign-i-fied," or put into signs and symbols.<<

signify

3. to be important [Latin signum a mark + facere to make]

signify may further mean: denote, indicate, evidence, communicate, announce, express, show, portend, connote, etc.

Strong’s #4591 - semaino; from the root word sema; a mark ...

1) to give a sign, to signify, indicate

2) to make known

>>The dead don't literally go under the altar,<<

You know that for a fact, yes? Well, in that (as I was given to understand) the .Org – takes the sixth seal, largely, literally – I tend to take your position vis-à-vis Revelation 6:9, with a grain of salt. Having said that,

how might you describe or define the altar of Revelation 6:9?

>>...any more than an animal comes out of the earth or out of the sea with all those heads, etc.<<

Okay, one arrives at that which can only be exposited as symbolic; however, that cannot be said of Revelation 6:9-11 – without extreme prejudice.

>>The dead are portrayed as being there symbolically.<<

Accepting that you may read Writ differently than I – how is it that you know of a certainty – what you purport in the above quote?

>>If you accept it literally, you will also have to accept Gen. 4: 10, 11 as literal. "The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground."<<

I think the SDA Commentary Series makes that comparison. That said, I am unable to confute the words of Gd re the matter of Abel’s blood. He knows, not I; nor, if I may suggest – you... However,

I do believe that the stones which Jesus Christ referenced in Luke 19:40 – would have cried out – even as I believe that the “...stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, ...” (Joshua 24:27)

Indeed, the very stone(s).

I think we often give Gd short shrift.

[John317]

For you to show that the dead are literally under the altar, you would need first of all to prove from Scripture that there is an immortal soul that survives death and goes on thinking and with the ability to pray and praise God, etc.

Where is that evidence in Scripture?

The Bible says in a number places in plain, good English that the dead do not praise the Lord. If you say the dead do praise the Lord, you are contradicting Scripture.

Also, the fact must be dealt with that Gen. 2 and 3 give no evidence that God put within us anything immortal, or that is not subject to death. When He told Adam he would die, God said, "YOU shall return to dust," and He gave no indication that there was anything that would go on living and not turn to dust.

In fact, the whole purpose of placing a guard at the gate so Adam and Eve could not eat of the tree of life would be useless if Adam and Eve were already going to go on living forever. The text makes it plain that God didn't want them to become immortal. That being the case, how much sense would it have been if God had placed an immortal spirit within them so that He had no control over whether a part of them would go on living forever?

It would make it appear that God did not think through the creation of humanity too well.

It seems obvious that when God exiled them from the garden so they could not eat and live forever, God did not realize that these two already would go on living forever anyway. That is why-- according to many people-- God had to make a place where He could send the wicked immortal spirits or souls to spend eternity for what they did during their brief life on earth.

[John317]

That might be. I haven't checked. Let's assume that it does. So what? Or are you at a point where if the SDA commentary says it, you automatically reject it?

It is actually an appropriate comparison. If you do not think so, explain it here. Both are metaphorical, certainly not literal.

Do you believe that the altar is the same as Abraham's bosom? Do the righteous dead go to both places?

[Twilight]

Hey my friend, do you have any further thoughts on Romans, where Paul states the Holy Spirit communes with our spirit.

I know you asked me my thoughts, I think it means exactly what it said, but I notice you did not respond to that text yourself.

Twilight.

[True-believer]

Christians are still very confused about life after death...

At death, their spirit goes to heaven or to a place of eternal punishment along with eternal torment FOREVER AND EVER.

[True-believer]

Christians are still very confused about life after death...

At death, their spirit goes to heaven or to a place of eternal punishment along with eternal torment FOREVER AND EVER.

Ok, this is not what I believe, but this is what my family prefers to believe and every Christian I know believes this as well.

Why??????????????????????????

[John317]

Hey my friend, do you have any further thoughts on Romans, where Paul states the Holy Spirit communes with our spirit.

I know you asked me my thoughts, I think it means exactly what it said, but I notice you did not respond to that text yourself.

Twilight.

Keep in mind the following meaning of the word "spirit"[Greek: pneuma] in the NT--

Strong's #4151. pneuma pnyoo'-mah from 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare 5590.

In Romans 8: 16, I believe that "our spirit" is referring to our minds or our consciousness. It is saying that in our minds we are aware of the assurance the Holy Spirit gives that we are children of God. Compare how Paul uses "spirit" in Romans 1: 9; also see 1 Cor. 5: 3, 4; 14: 14.

Compare 3 translations of Romans 8: 16:

Quote:

1) Contemporary English Version--

God's Spirit makes us sure that we are his children.

2) John Darby's Translation (literal)--

The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God.

3) Amplified--

The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God.

Now look at the previous verse, Romans 8: 15, and see how the word "spirit" is used there:

Quote:

1) Young's Literal Translation

8:15 for ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye did receive a spirit of adoption in which we cry, 'Abba -- Father.'

2) World English Bible

8:15 For you didn't receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, 'Abba! Father!'

3) Weymouth New Testament

8:15 You have not for the second time acquired the consciousness of being--a consciousness which fills you with terror. But you have acquired a deep inward conviction of having been adopted as sons--a conviction which prompts us to cry aloud, 'Abba! our Father!'

[John317]

Originally Posted By: True-believer

Christians are still very confused about life after death...

At death, their spirit goes to heaven or to a place of eternal punishment along with eternal torment FOREVER AND EVER.

Ok, this is not what I believe, but this is what my family prefers to believe and every Christian I know believes this as well.

Why??????????????????????????

The doctrine of the immortality of the soul is very popular because it helps people to feel that they don't really die but that death is actually like a door into another life. It's for this same reason that Satan told Eve that she wouldn't really die. He knew that she would want to believe it.

Many people prefer the lie to the truth for emotional reasons.

There are many Christians besides SDAs, though, who believe in the non-immortality of the soul. If you go onto the campus's of Baptist colleges, for example, you would be surprised at the number of theology professors who do not believe in the immortality of the soul. Martin Luther didn't believe in it and neither did John Milton. Quite a few modern Bible scholars could be listed as among those who disbelieve in it. John Stott is one name that comes to mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stott

Nevertheless, it's an undeniable fact that the belief in the immortality of soul is most popular. It's to be found in most of the world's non-Christian religions as well, such as Hinduism, some forms of Buddhism, Islam (although not all Muslims believe in it), and many more.

It may be of interest to you to know that the ancient historian, Herodotus (200 BC) wrote in The Histories (Book 2, paragraph 123) that "the Egyptians were also the first to claim that the soul of the human being is immortal, and that each time the body dies the soul enters another creature just as it is being born."

You can find in many books written by non-SDA scholars (as, for instance, the leading German Protestant theologian, Wolfhart Pannenberg: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfhart_Pannenberg) that the concept of the immortality of soul came into Christianity and Judaism by way of the ancient Greeks. There is much evidence for the truth of this viewpoint.

There can be no doubt of the great influence on Christianity of Aristotle's book, On the Immortality of the Soul, as well as of the Socratic dialogues of Plato. Most of the early Church Fathers were highly influenced by Plato and other Greek philosophers. The Greek influence began to be felt among the Jews between the time of Malachi and Matthew, or about 200 BC. This influence can be seen in the prayers to the dead that occur in 2 Maccabees 12: 44, 45, and in the the NT, such as in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man and in the disciples belief in ghosts (Mark 6: 49; Luke 24: 37).

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: True-believer

Christians are still very confused about life after death...

At death, their spirit goes to heaven or to a place of eternal punishment along with eternal torment FOREVER AND EVER.

Ok, this is not what I believe, but this is what my family prefers to believe and every Christian I know believes this as well.

Why??????????????????????????

Because Satan would rather have you fear God than love Him. It is a doctrine from devils is all it is. Unfortunately most never look into things for themselves and just listen to what others say.

[John317]

It is a doctrine from devils is all it is. Unfortunately most never look into things for themselves and just listen to what others say.

What you say here is quite true. The whole reason for the necessity of an everlastingly burning hell is the belief that God made humans with immortal souls. They must be put somewhere since they cannot be totally destroyed. If they could be completely got rid of, there would be no need of an endless torture chamber. It makes it appear that God either didn't think through His creation of mankind very well or else God is the greatest masochist anyone could possibly imagine.

[jasd]

John317, thanx for fixing the format of the other page...

Quote:

Quote:jasd

And thus spake the Somnambulant from his grave...

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, doest thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

>>For you to show that the dead are literally under the altar, you would need first of all to prove from Scripture that there is an immortal soul that survives death and goes on thinking and with the ability to pray and praise God, etc.<<

John317, forget “plain, good English”! it seems you either don’t pay attention or you don’t listen. I’ve, upon any number of occasions, proffered that:

“there is no immortality of soul - where One exists who is able to destroy it”

>>Where is that evidence in Scripture?<<

Moot.

>>The Bible says in a number places in plain, good English that the dead do not praise the Lord. If you say the dead do praise the Lord, you are contradicting Scripture.<<

Again, conditions existed before the crucifixion of Jesus Christ – that no longer obtain.

>>Also, the fact must be dealt with that Gen. 2 and 3 give no evidence that God put within us anything immortal, or that is not subject to death.<<

Refrain.

>>When He told Adam he would die, God said, "YOU shall return to dust," and He gave no indication that there was anything that would go on living and not turn to dust.<<

Gd also said, “...in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” What did Gd mean? without the day/thousand years devolution, did Gd speak falsely? Nevertheless,

my raison d’etre almost exclusively lies in the New Testament – and, you may want to review Revelation 19:1-8 to determine the disposition of those who Praise Gd therein.

>>In fact, the whole purpose of placing a guard at the gate so Adam and Eve could not eat of the tree of life would be useless if Adam and Eve were already going to go on living forever.<<

Well, however we may disagree upon the matter, it is obvious, from compiled texts, that the eating of the fruit of the tree of life would have sustained their body tabernacles. What that says of the possibility of their dwelling beyond the veils that separate from this earthly existence – who can say?

>>The text makes it plain that God didn't want them to become immortal.<<

What the text does relate is – that should man take of the fruit and live [in this creation] forever – Gd would have been made a liar.

>>That being the case, how much sense would it have been if God had placed an immortal spirit within them so that He had no control over whether a part of them would go on living forever?<< [ed.jasd]

Is it not Gd who is able to destroy both body and soul?

>>It would make it appear that God did not think through the creation of humanity too well.<<

No, John317, it would make it appear that we do not understand the mysteries of Gd.

>>It seems obvious that when God exiled them from the garden so they could not eat and live forever,<<

What did Gd mean when He said that He would destroy man from the face of the earth? Why did He not, instead, say that He would destroy man entirely, “face of the earth” notwithstanding. And why does Ecclesiastes so overly dwell upon the phrase “under the sun”. Sorta puts to mind a like phrase reminiscent of ‘outer darkness’, yes?

And what did the servant of Elisha see when his ‘eyes were opened’– if not other dimensions – where spirits dwell.

Hmm, it’s like mebbe, a musical note away...

>>God did not realize that these two already would go on living forever anyway. That is why-- according to many people-- God had to make a place where He could send the wicked immortal spirits or souls to spend eternity for what they did during their brief life on earth.<<

Well, we have you, John317, expositing that the hand of Gd is short – that it cannot save – but a few. Satan’s hand, on the other hand, it seems – is anything but short. And though Gd is said to have victory over that last enemy – death, it seems that it is no more than pyrrhic – in that many, many more are lost to death than is gained to life.

Sounds almost heathenistic in concept, yes?

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:John317

If you accept it literally, you will also have to accept Gen. 4: 10, 11 as literal. "The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground."

Quote:jasd

I think the SDA Commentary Series makes that comparison.

>>That might be. I haven't checked. Let's assume that it does. So what? Or are you at a point where if the SDA commentary says it, you automatically reject it?<<

No, I am saying that the sort of parochialism, which – depends overly much upon the ‘talking points’ of the .Org rather than Holy Writ - is catholic in minuscule. That said, let me add an addendum...

before purchasing the SDA Commentary, I searched the literary reviews and found that it is a recommendable Commentary Series – except that the selected writings of one person – was simply too pervasive.

As I’ve said, “It reflects an extreme sort of parochialism.”

>>It is actually an appropriate comparison. If you do not think so, explain it here. Both are metaphorical, certainly not literal.<<

You overreach to assert as fact that ‘they’ are both “metaphorical”. There is much of Gd’s creation that we – are unable either to apprehend or to comprehend.

Such as the two referenced passages have to be taken literally – unless, one knows for a fact that they are beyond

either Gd’s realm or ability – and therefor, to be taken – only as figurative.

I believe in a Gd who can hear the blood of Able cry out from the ground. I believe that when Gd states that there are souls beneath an altar – I accept that as well as I accept that none of us can either describe or define the heavenly altar spoken of in Revelation 6:9.

>>Do you believe that the altar is the same as Abraham's bosom?<<

How do you come by that?

>>Do the righteous dead go to both places?<<

What happened to disconnect from the OT – and establish the New Testament? Holy Writ is not shy re the disposition of the tabernacle, soul, spirit, etc of NT man.

Mebbe, of interest:

From a book “Transmutation”... a young man experienced upon a number of occasions when entering his home - the glimpse of an apparition in the entryway. Whilst at College he experienced no more 'ghostly' apparitions.

Upon a semester break he returned home – and as he packed to return to campus, he threw his collection of stones into his packet. Those stones were placed on a shelf in his dorm room and occasionally he, once again, had glimpses of his ‘private ghost’.

Further investigation revealed that a distinctive squeak of floorboards in his home entryway initiated the appearance of the apparition. A similar frequency elicited the same in his dorm room.

It seemed that a stone in his collection ‘stored’ (as do prototype computers utilizing the atomic matrix of crystals) ‘programs’ that ‘ran’ when initiated by ‘frequencies’...

Mebbe of interest:

Some years ago, an experiment was conducted in Germany to determine why some diseases were contracted ‘sympathetically’. The experiment employed arrayed petri dishes in which some cultures were infected with bacterial microbes with other unaffected cultures providing the controls. The uninfected controls, though ‘shielded’ and in sterile environment, became infected as well. Attempts to forestall sympathetic infections of the controls utilized various shielding ‘partitions’. All failed, until

the research group tried rose quartz – at which time, sympathetic infections ceased.

_______________________

“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy...”

[John317]

JOHN3:17-->>For you to show that the dead are literally under the altar, you would need first of all to prove from Scripture that there is an immortal soul that survives death and goes on thinking and with the ability to pray and praise God, etc.<<

Quote:

JASD-- forget “plain, good English”! it seems you either don’t pay attention or you don’t listen. I’ve, upon any number of occasions, proffered that:

“there is no immortality of soul - where One exists who is able to destroy it”

I'm glad you realize that there is no such thing as an immortal soul.

Now realize also that since the soul is not immortal, it could not be literally alive under the altar.

If it is alive, it is because it is not subject to death. That would mean by definition that it is immortal.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- >>The Bible says in a number places in plain, good English that the dead do not praise the Lord. If you say the dead do praise the Lord, you are contradicting Scripture.<<

JASD-- Again, conditions existed before the crucifixion of Jesus Christ – that no longer obtain.

Give it your best case from the Scriptures. I want to hear here this one.

[John317]

In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, the righteous are transported by angels to Abraham's bosom. If we somehow take Rev. 6: 9 literally-- despite the fact that, as you've conceded, there is no such thing as souls which are not subject to death-- then it would appear that the righteous are transported to a place under the altar in heaven rather than to Abraham's bosom. That is, unless you want to say one place is the same as the other. That is why I said that perhaps people get their choice of where they wish to go.

The curious thing is that in the parable, the angels transport dead people (not souls) to Abraham's bosom, and they go there bodily. Notice they have eyes and tongues and fingers. Souls, of course, do not have these body parts. If they did, how could all those souls fit under the altar?