Moderators John317 Posted April 16, 2009 Moderators Posted April 16, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Our salvation also required that Christ be raised from the dead and serve as our High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary today. And "in Him" (that's the gospel) we stand complete. Do you not teach that ALL mankind is "in Him"? Therefore that means ALL mankind is complete "in Him", isn't that right? Doesn't that mean Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc., are all complete "in Christ." By the way, the IJ only looks at the lives of those who have made a profession of faith or belief in God and Christ. Most people don't come up for judgment in the IJ. Only those are considered whose names have been inscribed in the Lamb's book of life. So most of the people you believe to be "in Christ" are not even considered in the IJ. Sadly their names will only come up during the 1000 years while they are in their graves on earth. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted April 16, 2009 Moderators Posted April 16, 2009 What about those poor people who lived before Moses and only had to show their faith by the sacrifice of a lamb? Was Jesus "Interceding" for them also?.....mel Jesus Christ was not High Priest until after His sacrifice and ascension to heaven. The people who lived before Moses and before Christ's resurrection were forgiven provisionally-- that is, on the basis of what Christ would do in the future. If for some reason Christ hadn't died and been raised, no one would have been forgiven and consequently all mankind would have been utterly lost. In that case, Enoch, Moses, and Elijah would have had to die also. All was riding on the shoulders of Jesus Christ. Our sins-- and the sins of everyone who has asked to be forgiven-- have been covered by the blood of Christ. Now is the time of the blotting out of sins. Our sins will not only be covered but will be totally blotted out so that there will never again be any memory of them. It's finishing with sin, bringing an end to it. That's the purpose of the Investigative Judgment. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
melvin mccarty Posted April 16, 2009 Posted April 16, 2009 Much speculation there my friend. I reject your analysis on the basis of a belief that God is a just judge and justice cannot be denied to the immense group of people who have never heard the gospel. Those people have to be judged some time and if in fact there is a so-called pre-advent judgemen it must include everyone. ....mel Quote
Moderators John317 Posted April 16, 2009 Moderators Posted April 16, 2009 Much speculation there my friend. I reject your analysis on the basis of a belief that God is a just judge and justice cannot be denied to the immense group of people who have never heard the gospel. Those people have to be judged some time and if in fact there is a so-called pre-advent judgemen it must include everyone. ....mel We cannot possibly arrive at a knowledge of these things apart from special revelation. That means God must reveal these truths to us through a prophet. We cannot know them by mere cogitation, however brilliant a person might be. What do you believe is "much speculation"? Can you give some examples? None of this is a denial that some will be saved who never heard of Christ. It just means that we cannot base our theology on that notion. The Bible makes it clear that people's salvation depends on their hearing the proclamation of the gospel. There will people lost because of what other people do or don't do. On the other hand, there will be people saved because of what people do and say. Our actions have serious consequences for both good and evil. I do believe that some people will be saved who never heard the gospel preached, but the Bible says nothing about that. But aside from that aspect of it, what do you think is unjust in the IJ as I've explained it? From the Bible's viewpoint, God was not obligated to save anyone. He could have been a just God and allowed this world to reap the consequences of its rebellion. All humanity deserved to die eternally. It is not unloving or unjust to allow people to reap what they've sown. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted April 16, 2009 Moderators Posted April 16, 2009 The judgment going on now-- the Pre-advent, or Investigative Judgment-- is described in Daniel 7: 9-14, 21-26. This is a judgment just of the "saints." As you've pointed out, the Great Throne Judgment-- which occurs after the Second Coming-- is described in Rev. 20: 11-12. It takes up the cases of all who have never accepted Christ. John 3: 18 says, "He who does not believe [in Christ] is condemned already." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
melvin mccarty Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 Well you can decide what kind of god you want to have. Mine is loving and just and not willing that any should perish. There are no dates provided in those judgement scenes. The dates have been assumed in order to fit other preconceived ideas. ....mel Quote
Moderators John317 Posted April 17, 2009 Moderators Posted April 17, 2009 Well you can decide what kind of god you want to have. Mine is loving and just and not willing that any should perish. There are no dates provided in those judgement scenes. The dates have been assumed in order to fit other preconceived ideas. ....mel Of course he is a just and loving God and not willing that any should perish. I agree. But at the same time he's not willing to force anyone or have anyone there who does not really want to be there. But how does what I have said contradict that? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert And "in Him" (that's the gospel) we stand complete. Do you not teach that ALL mankind is "in Him"? Therefore that means ALL mankind is complete "in Him"' date=' isn't that right? Doesn't that mean Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc., are all complete "in Christ." [/quote'] They "were" in Him by the incarnation, but after the resurrection Christ took a glorified humanity to heaven. By faith, either explicitly or implicitly, we are complete "in Him" because "in Him" we have a humanity that answers "the whole law." So while Hitler's, etc, humanity was "in Christ" through the incarnation if Hitler refused this truth, either explicitly or implicitly, he is lost. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted April 17, 2009 Moderators Posted April 17, 2009 ... By faith, either explicitly or implicitly, we are complete "in Him" because "in Him" we have a humanity that answers "the whole law."... Could you explain more about having a humanity that answers "the whole law"? What implications if any does that have for the judgment? For instance, if or since we have a humanity that answers the whole law, how can God consistently condemn anyone for not obeying His law? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 Quote: how can God consistently condemn anyone for not obeying His law? God doesn't condemn anyone for not obeying His law. God condemns them for not accepting the pardon available through His blood. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert ... By faith, either explicitly or implicitly, we are complete "in Him" because "in Him" we have a humanity that answers "the whole law."... For instance, if or since we have a humanity that answers the whole law, how can God consistently condemn anyone for not obeying His law? First, I think you misunderstand the judgment. There's a judgment because there's an accuser. What's his main objection? Well, I'll even use EGW: "Look at the sins that have marked their [believers] lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them." [PK 588] So the question is "How can God justify believing sinners and at the same time maintain His integrity to the divine law that justly condemns them to eternal death?” [see Romans 4:5, Galatians 3:10]. If the judgment is about our law obedience then clearly no one can be saved! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted April 17, 2009 Moderators Posted April 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 For instance, if or since we have a humanity that answers the whole law, how can God consistently condemn anyone for not obeying His law? [/quote'] First, I think you misunderstand the judgment. There's a judgment because there's an accuser. What's his main objection? Well, I'll even use EGW: "Look at the sins that have marked their [believers] lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them." [PK 588] So the question is "How can God justify believing sinners and at the same time maintain His integrity to the divine law that justly condemns them to eternal death?” [see Romans 4:5, Galatians 3:10]. If the judgment is about our law obedience then clearly no one can be saved! Sure, there's that aspect of the IJ, but there are other reasons for it as well. It's not a question of whether people have kept the commandments of God to absolute perfection. The question is do their lives show that they are loyal to Christ or do their lives show that they are still in rebellion against God and His rule. God isn't looking for sinlessness. It's not about earning salvation or being all that the law demands. Christ has taken care of that for us. It's about whether our lives show we have allowed Christ to rule and to change us from rebels to good citizens of God's kingdom. That can only happen if we are truly converted and have a daily, personal, faith-based relationship with the King. Or does our life prove that we having been faking it or have not been sincere and honest with God. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted April 17, 2009 Moderators Posted April 17, 2009 Quote: how can God consistently condemn anyone for not obeying His law? God doesn't condemn anyone for not obeying His law. God condemns them for not accepting the pardon available through His blood. If a person truly accept God's pardon of their sins, it will make a difference in their life. If there is no difference in their life between the way they were before and after the pardon, then the repentance was not genuine. See 1 John 1: 5-10 to 2: 6. When a Christian believer is truly converted there will be a big difference. People will see the difference. That is one of the things that will be brought out in the Investigative Judgment. See the SDA Fundamental Beliefs: Quote: There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent.—Fundamental Beliefs, 23 Question: But what if you believe in your heart that no one can keep the commandments or that no one does keep them? Or what if you believe that no one is loyal to God and that it doesn't matter if you yourself keep the commandments or if anyone is loyal? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 For instance, if or since we have a humanity that answers the whole law, how can God consistently condemn anyone for not obeying His law? [/quote'] First, I think you misunderstand the judgment. There's a judgment because there's an accuser. What's his main objection? Well, I'll even use EGW: "Look at the sins that have marked their [believers] lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them." [PK 588] So the question is "How can God justify believing sinners and at the same time maintain His integrity to the divine law that justly condemns them to eternal death?” [see Romans 4:5, Galatians 3:10]. If the judgment is about our law obedience then clearly no one can be saved! Good Points Robert. Thank you so much. This clearly explains things for me. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 It's not a question of whether people have kept the commandments of God to absolute perfection. Quote
Robert Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. Quote
Robert Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 "How can God justify believing sinners and at the same time maintain His integrity to the divine law that justly condemns them to eternal death?” I'll tell you this Traditional, Historic SDA can't answer this question. And if they do their answer is very much Roman Catholic. Rob Quote
Shekinah Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 I love this topic as Christ is praying in the sanctuary now.When we come to Christ and recieve the Holy Spirit, the more we become Christ like and live by the commandments even though as sinners we tend to fall Christ is there to pick us up again.This doesnt mean to just go and live at free will as being born again we are given knowledge through the Holy Spirit of how we ought to be and conduct ourselves.Christ was aked what should i do that i may be in paradise and He replied keep my Commandments and observe the Sabbath,keep it Holy. The Sabbath is the most important to me as most Christians do not pay attention to Gods commandment on this.Moreso if you get into the word and read what Paul has to say in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 he gives a list of those who will not inherit the Kingdom of God.I would then say our beliefs as Christians and our fundamentals are correct and Spirit inspired as well.The closer we get to Christ the more we want to become as He is.Through Isaac and his son we learn why God sent Jesus to die for us He had to have a way to save a people that were hopelessly without atonement.What a sacrifice Christ went through that we may live!!Praise the Lord He reigns!! Quote John 11:35
Robert Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Christ was aked what should i do that i may be in paradise Verse? Quote
Shekinah Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Christ was speaking to the rich young man in Matthew 19:16-24 Quote John 11:35
Moderators John317 Posted April 18, 2009 Moderators Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. Right, Christ is our sanctuary. We are complete "in Him". See Hebrews 10:19,20 Quote: The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. —Fundamental Beliefs, 23 BS! Robert, this shows that it is you who either does not understand the sanctuary message or does not accept it. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted April 18, 2009 Moderators Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert First, I think you misunderstand the judgment. There's a judgment because there's an accuser. What's his main objection? Well, I'll even use EGW: "Look at the sins that have marked their [believers'] lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them." [PK 588] So the question is "How can God justify believing sinners and at the same time maintain His integrity to the divine law that justly condemns them to eternal death?” [see Romans 4:5, Galatians 3:10]. If the judgment is about our law obedience then clearly no one can be saved! Good Points Robert. Thank you so much. This clearly explains things for me. Redwood, below is Robert's reaction to the official doctrine of our church regarding the Investigative Judgment. Of course he has a right to reject it or disagree with it, as does anyone. So I am not finding fault with his disagreement of it. All I am pointing out is that it shows (from my standpoint) that he does not understand the SDA message of the sanctuary. Nor does he understand or accept Ellen White's statements on the sanctuary, because her statements and the church's doctrine are in complete agreement. Quote: The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. —Fundamental Beliefs, 23 Robert's response to the above Fundamental Belief: Quote: BS! Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Christ was speaking to the rich young man in Matthew 19:16-24 The terms of the “old covenant” were, Obey and live: “If a man do, he shall even live in them” (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but “cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.” Deut. 27:26. Christ was giving this man OC principles. Would you like for me to prove this? Rob Quote
Robert Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Robert, this shows that it is you who either does not understand the sanctuary message or does not accept it. It's very simple: Col 1:22 He [Christ] has reconciled you 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. We are holy and blameless "in Christ" as long as our faith remains in Him. That's the sanctuary message. Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus [i.e., His life laid down in death], 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh.... "In Christ" we have a glorified humanity that stands complete. The veil that separated the holy from the most holy has been removed. Now we can boldly come before God and His law "in Christ Jesus". We are complete in Him!!!! Rob Quote
True-believer Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Robert, this shows that it is you who either does not understand the sanctuary message or does not accept it. It's very simple: Col 1:22 He [Christ] has reconciled you 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. We are holy and blameless "in Christ" as long as our faith remains in Him. That's the sanctuary message. Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus [i.e., His life laid down in death], 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh.... "In Christ" we have a glorified humanity that stands complete. The veil that separated the holy from the most holy has been removed. Now we can boldly come before God and His law "in Christ Jesus". We are complete in Him!!!! Rob Amen Robert... That is so true and biblical... Stay strong and be encouraged. Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
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