What is the #1 Most Important SDA doctrine?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I'm not accusing you' date=' but most SDA when they quote "faith without works is dead" they have law-works in mind. but that's not the immediate context of James chapter 2

Jesus did works of faith, not works of the law.[/quote']

Jesus kept the whole law. He even stated this! Yes, through faith, but nonetheless His works fulfilled the law.

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So works of faith will not result in disobedience to God's law but in obedience.

Again, Abraham's and Rahab's works were not related to the law. What commandment tells you to lie to save some spies or to kill your son? I can't find any....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: John317

So works of faith will not result in disobedience to God's law but in obedience.

Again, Abraham's and Rahab's works were not related to the law. What commandment tells you to lie to save some spies or to kill your son? I can't find any....

Do you see my point? Every time I tell a Traditional SDA we are saved by grace alone they will bring up James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

But James isn't speaking of works related to the law. His two primary examples are the works of Abraham and Rahab.

That's why Paul states, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." Romans 3:28

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Again' date=' Abraham's and Rahab's works were not related to the law. What commandment tells you to lie to save some spies or to kill your son? I can't find any....

Do you see my point? Every time I tell a Traditional SDA we are saved by grace alone they will bring up James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."[/quote']

Because the faith you talk about is nothing more than an intellectual assent/agreement to a truthful proposition.

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But James isn't speaking of works related to the law. His two primary examples are the works of Abraham and Rahab.

The works they did are works of faith that are in obedience to law or God's revealed will! Of Abraham's works, the Scriptures have this testimony: "because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.” Gen 26:5 ESV.

And of Rahab: "By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies." Heb 11:31 ESV

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That's why Paul states, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." Romans 3:28

The same Paul you are appealing to had this to say about what kind of faith that justifies:

"Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith." Rom 1:5 NIV

"Through Christ, God gave me the special work of an apostle, which was to lead people of all nations to believe and obey." NCV

"through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake." NASB

"for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified." Rom 2:13 NASB

" For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." NIV

" For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight." NLT

[Woody]

Quote:

Do you see my point? Every time I tell a Traditional SDA we are saved by grace alone they will bring up James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

But James isn't speaking of works related to the law. His two primary examples are the works of Abraham and Rahab.

That's why Paul states, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." Romans 3:28

Yes Yes. Good points Rob.

The law condemns us. That is the purpose of the Law. We are in no way saved by the law except that Christ kept it for us so that we won't be condemned if we accept His Robe.

Praise God.

[Gerr]

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The law condemns us. That is the purpose of the Law. We are in no way saved by the law except that Christ kept it for us so that we won't be condemned if we accept His Robe.

Praise God.

No condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, Rom 8:1.

While we are saved SOLELY by Christ's obedience, no way shape or form that God condones or overlooks ongoing rebellion.

[Woody]

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John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Quote:

"And his promise is, "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" as branches that are withered and bear no fruit. As the representative of the human family, he came to save all who would make application, with prayer and supplication to, God in his name." EGW in RH, November 9, 1897 par. 3

[Robert]

Quote:

The law condemns us. That is the purpose of the Law. We are in no way saved by the law except that Christ kept it for us so that we won't be condemned if we accept His Robe.

Praise God.

No condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, Rom 8:1.

While we are saved SOLELY by Christ's obedience, no way shape or form that God condones or overlooks ongoing rebellion.

Self-love & self-seeking, those things that are opposed to agape, aren't they rebellion? After all "agape is the fulfillment of the law."

[Robert]

Of Abraham's works, the Scriptures have this testimony: "because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.” Gen 26:5 ESV.

I've been over this before! Show me, using the immediate context of Genesis, that these rules and laws have anything to do with the moral law. I've been through the whole chapter and it doesn't have anything to do with the 10 commandments.

Rob

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Of Abraham's works, the Scriptures have this testimony: "because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.” Gen 26:5 ESV.

I've been over this before! Show me, using the immediate context of Genesis, that these rules and laws have anything to do with the moral law. I've been through the whole chapter and it doesn't have anything to do with the 10 commandments.

Rob

Show me that the "charge...commandments...statutes...laws" that he kept had nothing to do with moral law and the 10c. The burden of proof is with you, sir, since in common usage commandments, statutes, and laws have to do with civil and moral laws.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

The law condemns us. That is the purpose of the Law. We are in no way saved by the law except that Christ kept it for us so that we won't be condemned if we accept His Robe.

Praise God.

No condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, Rom 8:1.

While we are saved SOLELY by Christ's obedience, no way shape or form that God condones or overlooks ongoing rebellion.

Self-love & self-seeking, those things that are opposed to agape, aren't they rebellion? After all "agape is the fulfillment of the law."

WILLFUL self-love and self-seeking in the pejorative sense IS rebellion. But there IS a heaven-approved kind of self-love which we have discussed over and over before.

dAnd one of them, ea lawyer, asked him a question fto test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, g“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And ha second is like it: iYou shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 jOn these two commandments depend kall the Law and the Prophets.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Mt 22:35-40). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

Since our Lord Himself said that everything the law and the prophets taught are based on these two commandments, the EGW passages that you like to beat people over the head with, could not possibly mean the extreme that you are stretching them to mean.

"Whatever is done from pure love, be it ever so small and contemptible in the sight of men, is wholly fruitful; for God regards the love that actuates the worker more than he does the amount of work done." {SW, July 28, 1908 par. 1}

So, even though our love will never "measure up" to His agape love, it is acceptable to God as fulfilling the law.

[Gerr]

Quote:

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Quote:

"And his promise is, "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" as branches that are withered and bear no fruit. As the representative of the human family, he came to save all who would make application, with prayer and supplication to, God in his name." EGW in RH, November 9, 1897 par. 3

AGREED!!! But no way shape or form that those who come to Christ will keep on living in rebellion.

[Twilight]

It also shows our route to sanctification...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: LynnDel

You got it, dgrimm - and how wonderful to daily remember that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, rose, and is coming again!

LD

That is an essential teaching and right at the center, but that is not the most important SDA doctrine. Almost all Christian churches believe that he died for our sins and is coming back.

His coming back and His dying for our sins is tied directly to our understanding of the heavenly sanctuary and of what He is doing there now.

His dying for our sins 2000 years ago was only the first part of the atonement. If all Christ did was die for our sins, we would still be lost.

This is where our churches message is so essential.

It is absolutely necessary for Christ to be our High Priest and finish His work in the heavenly sanctuary before He comes back. He won't return until He finishes the Pre-Advent Judgment.

That has to do with the Sabbath, the state of the dead, the health message. and the Three Angels Messages.

The Sanctuary is where we receive our sanctification.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I've been over this before! Show me, using the immediate context of Genesis, that these rules and laws have anything to do with the moral law. I've been through the whole chapter and it doesn't have anything to do with the 10 commandments.

Rob [/quote']

Show me that the "charge...commandments...statutes...laws" that he kept had nothing to do with moral law and the 10c. The burden of proof is with you, sir, since in common usage commandments, statutes, and laws have to do with civil and moral laws.

No, show me using the context....Those laws had to do with circumcision & animal sacrifices. Again, prove me wrong using the context! BTW, the 10 cc were still future.

[Robert]

But there IS a heaven-approved kind of self-love which we have discussed over and over before.

No! No, no, no! That's one point I will never, never back off from. Self-love is from Satan, period. God doesn't teach it...He condemns it.

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Shane made a good point a year are so ago. Who is Christ talking to? Sinners, who are already in love with themselves. Self love is natural...it comes from birth. Take two babies and give one a toy and the other nothing. What happens? They'll fight over that toy. Why? Selfishness...the love of self.

Besides, there's only ONE command in that quote. Love your neighbor (how?) as you love yourself. In other words take that love of self and instead of living for yourself, live for your neighbor. Hence EGW: "You will have that love that seeketh not her own wealth, but another's"

[Robert]

there IS a heaven-approved kind of self-love which we have discussed over and over before.

When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory surrounding the heavenly messenger that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection. Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, “There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.” Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love, and will seek, through Christ’s righteousness, for the purity of heart that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ. Paul says that as “touching the righteousness which is in the law”—as far as outward acts were concerned --he was “blameless” (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. [sC 29]

It was the same presence of divine holiness that had caused the prophet Daniel to fall as one dead before the angel of God. He said, “My comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.” So when Isaiah beheld the glory of the Lord, he exclaimed, “Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.” Dan. 10:8; Isa. 6:5. Humanity, with its weakness and sin, was brought in contrast with the perfection of divinity, and he felt altogether deficient and unholy. Thus it has been with all who have been granted a view of God’s greatness and majesty. [DA 246]

[John317]

The wilful commission of a known sin silences the witnessing voice of the Spirit, and separates the soul from God. Jesus cannot abide in the heart that disregards the divine law. God will honor those only who honor him.--S. of T. 1894, No. 24. {HL 306.3}

It is obvious on the basis of this statement-- and many others besides-- that not all sins are done willfully.

If all sins are willful as you've long maintained, it would just say "the commission of any sin..."

[Woody]

Ellen White has been very clear on this issue if you read all that she has to say on the topic. One may wish she had said things in a different way ... but she said them clearly in the way she wanted.

[John317]

Ellen White has been very clear on this issue if you read all that she has to say on the topic. One may wish she had said things in a different way ... but she said them clearly in the way she wanted.

In order for all sin to be willful, the statement by Ellen White would need to be false. That would mean that any and all sin whatsoever silences the witnessing voice of the Spirit. However, we know that is not true. How do we know? Because it is manifestly self-evident that some sinners do hear the voice of the Spirit. So there clearly must be distinction between willful sin and sin which is not willful.

The very fact that we can say "sin which is not willful," proves that not all sin is willful.

Check it out again, think it through, and let me know your thoughts:

Quote:

The wilful commission of a known sin silences the witnessing voice of the Spirit, and separates the soul from God. Jesus cannot abide in the heart that disregards the divine law. God will honor those only who honor him.--S. of T. 1894, No. 24. {HL 306.3}

[Robert]

The very fact that we can say "sin which is not willful," proves that not all sin is willful.

But according to the law it doesn't matter. Sin is sin and you stand condemned.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The very fact that we can say "sin which is not willful," proves that not all sin is willful.

But according to the law it doesn't matter. Sin is sin and you stand condemned.

You're talking from the legalistic viewpoint; that is, of the condemnation of the law, and in that sense we are all sinful and worthy of death and cannot possibly do anything to deserve or merit either justification or salvation. But what of the person who comes to Christ in faith. He is not attempting to gain justification or salvation by doing any works of the law.

How does it matter? Willful sin affects us in a way that sins which are not willful do not affect us. The person Ellen White is talking about is not trying to earn anything. Yet for this person, the kind of sin he commits does have a serious affect on Him. Does it matter? I should say it matters a great deal.

Read it again:

Quote:

The wilful commission of a known sin silences the witnessing voice of the Spirit, and separates the soul from God. Jesus cannot abide in the heart that disregards the divine law. God will honor those only who honor him.--S. of T. 1894, No. 24. {HL 306.3}

Notice also that not all sins are exactly alike and not all have the same affect. For instance, 1 John 5: 16, 17 teaches that some sins are deadly and others are not.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

But according to the law it doesn't matter. Sin is sin and you stand condemned. [/quote']

You're talking from the legalistic viewpoint; that is, of the condemnation of the law, and in that sense we are all sinful and worthy of death and cannot possibly do anything to deserve or merit either justification or salvation.

Then we are not under the law?

[LynnDel]

This is the trouble with discussion about what is important to Adventists -- we get bogged down in yokes and burdens - but the bottom line is that without Jesus' coming to save His people from their sins, none of the other important doctrines would have a basis on which to stand. The sanctuary is a depiction of the story of salvation in which Jesus' sacrifice plays the central part. It's not the only part, but it is foundational. The most important SDA doctrine is not distinctive; we share with the rest of true Christianity the basis for the beginnings of the Christian church in New Testament times.

LynnDel

[Woody]

[oldsailor29]

THAT JESUS died for our sins and that HE is coming

to take us to heaven.....

dgrimm60