Robert Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Where, in the law, did it instruct Abraham to kill Issac? Yes? Now I can find where it says, "Do not kill", but I can't find the above. You don't get it. Abraham was justified by God's grace through faith. But what was his faith? His faith was in everything God told him to do, even to the point of killing his own son, ONLY ON THE NAKED WORD OF GOD. God was testing his faith, not his goodness. He promised Abraham that through Issac's seed He would make him a nation of many people. No Issac, no future. Therefore Abraham believed that God would have to raise Issac if He was going to keep His promise. Nothing about the law here.... Quote
Moderators John317 Posted April 18, 2009 Moderators Posted April 18, 2009 ... It simply says that Rabab's faith was real because she helped the spies. Her justification by faith was real in that she assisted the spies and lied. Keep it simple. So, then, you think that Rahab would have retained her justification and salvation no matter what? What is saving faith? Is there a difference between false faith (presumption) and true, saving faith? For instance, let's suppose she lived for another 10 or 15 years, and to the day of her death, she was soliciting for prostitution. You think that is true, saving faith? Revisit Jack's statement: Quote: Having solved this paradoxical problem between faith and works, we are now in a position to see how Christ is able, in the investigative judgment, to vindicate believing sinners who put their faith in His righteousness. While Satan may be right in accusing us as sinners Christ, our advocate, brings up our works — not to prove our righteousness, for we have none, but to prove our faith in His righteousness, i.e., righteousness by faith. Christians who by faith put their full confidence in the righteousness of Christ will manifest it by their works of faith. In the investigative judgment, these works will be used by Christ, our defense lawyer, to prove our faith is in His righteousness [read Rom. 10:4]. Once He does that, Satan will have to prove that Christ Himself is a sinner. This he cannot do [read Jn. 14:30]. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted April 18, 2009 Moderators Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 You don't get it. Abraham was justified by God's grace through faith. But what was his faith? His faith was in everything God told him to do, even to the point of killing his own son, ONLY ON THE NAKED WORD OF GOD. [/quote'] God was testing his faith, not his goodness. No, I am not talking about my goodness, either. If it was just me, on my own, I would be the same as I was before Jesus took control of my life. On my own I'm a wicked, bad person. I know that. No one has to tell me that. But faith has both an objective aspect and a subjective aspect. Both are necessary. Faith brings about a change and if the change is not there, it is like the fruit not being there on a tree. It is proof that the tree is not good. So the lack of the fruit in our lives proves that our faith is not saving faith. The change in my life doesn't prove that I am now a good person. Of myself I am still a bad person. The change in my life is all of Christ, not me. That is what Paul must have meant in Gal. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted April 18, 2009 Moderators Posted April 18, 2009 Quote: OHN3:17--All of God's commandments are promises because we know He wouldn't give commandments for which He doesn't provide the power to obey them. BS...Then why aren't you walking exactly as Christ walked? Like I said, BS. Try to get beyond this knee-jerk reaction. What other people are doing or not doing is irrelevant. Your words actually show a lack of faith in God. They make it appear that you are waiting for demonstrable proof before you will obey Him. This is exactly what Abram did before He was Abraham. He needed proof. That is not faith. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 ....So, then, you think that Rahab would have retained her justification and salvation no matter what? My point was she wasn't judged by the law. God didn't say, "Look, she helped the spies therefore she is righteous". Her faith worked, but it wasn't a law based work.... Rob Quote
Robert Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert No, I am not talking about my goodness, either. If it was just me, on my own, I would be the same as I was before Jesus took control of my life. The willingness to kill Isaac had nothing to do with a besetting sin. It wasn't a law based work. How many times do I have to repeat this, John? Quote
Robert Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Quote: OHN3:17--All of God's commandments are promises because we know He wouldn't give commandments for which He doesn't provide the power to obey them. BS...Then why aren't you walking exactly as Christ walked? Like I said, BS. Your words actually show a lack of faith in God. And your failure to live His sinless life proves my point. That too, if you wish to get technical, shows a lack of faith in God. Rob Quote
Robert Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 you are waiting for demonstrable proof before you will obey Him. This is exactly what Abram did before He was Abraham. He needed proof. That is not faith. Clearly Abram was justified by faith although he wanted proof. Read the account.... Rob Quote
Robert Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 The change in my life doesn't prove that I am now a good person. Good point....It proves your faith is real, even though you have besetting sins and fall short of God's agape love. To this I agree. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted April 18, 2009 Moderators Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 ....So, then, you think that Rahab would have retained her justification and salvation no matter what? My point was she wasn't judged by the law. God didn't say, "Look, she helped the spies therefore she is righteous". Her faith worked, but it wasn't a law based work.... Rob Of course. I thought that was a given. At least it is with me and with SDA beliefs. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted April 18, 2009 Moderators Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 The change in my life doesn't prove that I am now a good person. Good point....It proves your faith is real, even though you have besetting sins and fall short of God's agape love. To this I agree. Besetting sins are not sins a person is practicing or deliberately or willfully committing. No one will be condemned for falling short of God's glorious ideal. But people will be condemned for continuing to practice sin and not using God's power to resist and overcome sin. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted April 18, 2009 Moderators Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 No, I am not talking about my goodness, either. If it was just me, on my own, I would be the same as I was before Jesus took control of my life. [/quote'] The willingness to kill Isaac had nothing to do with a besetting sin. It wasn't a law based work. How many times do I have to repeat this, John? Yes, it had to do with Abraham's besetting sin of doubting God. Lack of faith can be, and often is, a besetting sin. I have never said the willingness to kill Isaac was a law-based work. Where do you think I have said it was? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted April 18, 2009 Moderators Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 you are waiting for demonstrable proof before you will obey Him. This is exactly what Abram did before He was Abraham. He needed proof. That is not faith. Clearly Abram was justified by faith although he wanted proof. Read the account.... And because he didn't have proof, Abraham tried to help God by going into Hagar. He had true faith when he believed God. He had evidence that God is true, but no longer required proof because He relied on God's word. That's true faith. True faith is believing God's Word and acting on it. If God commands you to step out on to a board that is between two deep canyons, genuine faith is obeying God without first examining the boards to make sure it will hold your weight. When God told Abram to leave his country and go to another place, it was faith that caused him to go without first asking where and making sure he would make it there. Faith was going without proof. It was trusting God, not trusting the proof. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Good point....It proves your faith is real' date=' even though you have besetting sins and fall short of God's agape love. To this I agree.[/quote'] Besetting sins are not sins a person is practicing or deliberately or willfully committing. people will be condemned for continuing to practice sin and not using God's power to resist and overcome sin. You mean known sin! Also, that last post is not true. By definition a besetting sin is a repetitive sin. It's a cycle of sin & forgiveness, but yet failure to move on. While it is preferable to move forward such sin does not cost one salvation. Quote
Robert Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 I have never said the willingness to kill Isaac was a law-based work. Where do you think I have said it was? I'm not accusing you, but most SDA when they quote "faith without works is dead" they have law-works in mind. but that's not the immediate context of James chapter 2 Quote
Moderators John317 Posted April 18, 2009 Moderators Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Your words actually show a lack of faith in God. [/quote'] And your failure to live His sinless life proves my point. That too, if you wish to get technical, shows a lack of faith in God. You will never know if or when anyone lives a sinless life. In fact, I am pretty sure you believe that it is impossible for anyone to live a sinless life this side of heaven. But the issue is not one of whether anyone is living a sinless life. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 You will never know if or when anyone lives a sinless life. In fact, I am pretty sure you believe that it is impossible for anyone to live a sinless life this side of heaven. Actually, no it is possible...but not yet! But, also, those who perfectly reflect Christ will never know it! As EGW states, “Their earthliness must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” [4SP 438] To get there all self-interests, self-seeking, etc, etc, must be removed. All self-centered motives must be removed. Remember that agape has no self-love in it. The life of Christ is the fulfillment of agape for "agape is the fulfillment of the law". In order for this to happen all earthly support...all earthly things must be cutoff. This will occur just before probation closes, but isn't a prerequisite to enter heaven, rather it proves the power of the gospel. The last generation of Christians will love not their lives even unto death. Like Christ they will be willing to die forever. They have lost all self-interests. This is not true of any of us now. Rob Quote
Robert Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Jack's view: I believe the power of God is greater than all the power Satan can master through sinful flesh, so that the Holy Spirit can give us total victory over sin. But nowhere in the Bible do we find that the issue in the time of trouble will be sinless living. What then will be the issue? There are two texts that give us a clue as to what will be the real issue. The first is found in Luke 18. Here, Jesus is relating a parable that has one purpose in mind, to develop a faith in His disciples that is unshakable, no matter what [read Luke 18:1]. But, having told the parable of the persistent widow, note how He applies this parable to the last generation of believers [read Luke 18:8]. Clearly, the issue is faith. The second text I would like to bring to your attention is even more specific: Isa. 54:4-8. Just as Christ was robbed of the hope of resurrection when He hung on the cross and felt forsaken of God, so likewise, in the time of trouble, the saints will feel forsaken of God and, therefore, be robbed of the hope of salvation. The real issue, therefore, will be between faith and feelings: our faith in Christ or the feelings of our sinful nature that is a slave to self. Under such conditions, to pass the test, our love for God and our fellow man must be greater than our love for self [for examples, read Ex. 32:31,32; Rom. 9:1-3]. Quote
Robert Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 “Their earthliness must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” [4SP 438] What is this "earthliness"? It's the same as "worldliness"! What's that? Turn to 1 John 2:16 For everything [not just somethings] in the world--the cravings of sinful man [his desires of self-seeking], the lust of his eyes [what he sees he wants] and the boasting of what he has and does [pride]--comes not from the Father but from the world. So what does "earthliness" or "worldliness" really mean? Jack does an excellent job defining this. It just shows how infected all of us are even though we keep the letter of the law: Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self). Quote
Moderators John317 Posted April 18, 2009 Moderators Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 You will never know if or when anyone lives a sinless life. In fact, I am pretty sure you believe that it is impossible for anyone to live a sinless life this side of heaven. Actually, no it is possible...but not yet! When is it possible? What is going to make the difference? Can you give references for that view? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted April 18, 2009 Moderators Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 You will never know if or when anyone lives a sinless life. In fact, I am pretty sure you believe that it is impossible for anyone to live a sinless life this side of heaven. Actually, no it is possible...but not yet! But, also, those who perfectly reflect Christ will never know it! So, then, if they are not aware of it, why do you think you would ever know about it? The truth that God alone will know when or if that condition is ever met in a person's life. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted April 18, 2009 Moderators Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 You will never know if or when anyone lives a sinless life. In fact, I am pretty sure you believe that it is impossible for anyone to live a sinless life this side of heaven. Actually, no it is possible...but not yet! But, also, those who perfectly reflect Christ will never know it! As EGW states, “Their earthliness must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” [4SP 438] To get there all self-interests, self-seeking, etc, etc, must be removed. All self-centered motives must be removed. Remember that agape has no self-love in it. The life of Christ is the fulfillment of agape for "agape is the fulfillment of the law". In order for this to happen all earthly support...all earthly things must be cutoff. This will occur just before probation closes, but isn't a prerequisite to enter heaven, rather it proves the power of the gospel. The last generation of Christians will love not their lives even unto death. Like Christ they will be willing to die forever. They have lost all self-interests. This is not true of any of us now. Do you plan to be among those who are willing to die forever? Isn't it time NOW to get ready to join that group? What is going to make the difference between those who make it through that period and those who do not make it? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted April 18, 2009 Moderators Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 I have never said the willingness to kill Isaac was a law-based work. Where do you think I have said it was? I'm not accusing you, but most SDA when they quote "faith without works is dead" they have law-works in mind. but that's not the immediate context of James chapter 2 Jesus did works of faith, not works of the law. Did Christ fully obey God's law? Without question, yes, He did. So works of faith will not result in disobedience to God's law but in obedience. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 You mean known sin! Also, that last post is not true. By definition a besetting sin is a repetitive sin. It's a cycle of sin & forgiveness, but yet failure to move on. While it is preferable to move forward such sin does not cost one salvation. That would be correct Rob. The dictionary definition says it would be to constantly assailing or obsessing over something as a sin. Sounds like a repetitive sin to me. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted April 19, 2009 Moderators Posted April 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert You mean known sin! Also' date=' that last post is not true. By definition a besetting sin is a repetitive sin. It's a cycle of sin & forgiveness, but yet failure to move on. While it is preferable to move forward such sin does not cost one salvation. That would be correct Rob. The dictionary definition says it would be to constantly assailing or obsessing over something as a sin. Sounds like a repetitive sin to me.[/quote'] Quote: beset |biˈset|verb ( -setting ; past and past part. -set ) [ trans. ] 1 (of a problem or difficulty) trouble or threaten persistently : the social problems that beset the inner city | she was beset with self-doubt | [as adj. ] poverty is a besetting problem. • surround and harass; assail on all sides : I was beset by clouds of flies. This is the work which the Lord proposes to do for all who consecrate themselves to Him. . . . To all who will receive instruction He will impart grace and wisdom. . . . He will reveal to them their defects of character, and bestow upon all who seek His aid, strength to correct their errors. Whatever may be man's besetting sin, whatever bitter or baleful passions struggle for the mastery, he may conquer, if he will watch and war against them in the name and strength of Israel's Helper. The children of God should cultivate a keen sensitiveness to sin. . . . It is one of Satan's most successful devices, to lead men to the commission of little sins, to blind the mind to the danger of little indulgences, little digressions from the plainly stated requirements of God. Many who would shrink with horror from some great transgression, are led to look upon sin in little matters as of trifling consequence. But these little sins eat out the life of godliness in the soul. The feet which enter upon a path diverging from the right way are tending toward the broad road that ends in death. God's Amazing Grace (1973), page 242, paragraph 3 Unless the sacred word is appreciated, it will not be obeyed as a sure and safe and precious text book. Every besetting sin must be put away. Warfare must be waged against it until it is overcome. The Lord will work with your efforts. As finite, sinful man works out his own salvation with fear and trembling, it is God who works in him, to will and to do of his own good pleasure. But God will not work without the co-operation of man. He must exercise his powers to the very utmost; he must place himself as an apt, willing student in the school of Christ; and as he accepts the grace that is freely offered to him, the presence of Christ in the thought and in the heart will give him decision of purpose to lay aside every weight of sin, that the heart may be filled with all the fullness of God, and of his love. Christian Education (1893, 1894), page 111, paragraph 1 The earnest counsel given by the apostle Paul to Timothy, that he might not fail in doing his duty, should be set before the youth of today: "Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity." 1 Timothy 4:12. Besetting sins must be battled with and overcome. Objectionable traits of character, whether hereditary or cultivated, should be taken up separately, and compared with the great rule of righteousness; and in the light reflected from the Word of God, they should be firmly resisted and overcome, through the strength of Christ. . . . The Faith I Live By (1958), page 124, paragraph 2 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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