What is the #1 Most Important SDA doctrine?

[Robert]

Robert's response to the above Fundamental Belief:

Quote:

BS!

Here's what my man Jack says concerning the "sanctuary":

"My honest belief is that our pioneers who first formulated this doctrine from their study of the Bible, and which was later endorsed by Ellen G. White, were lead by God, in spite of their limitations."

What "limitations"? Let's see...

Jack goes on to state, "God’s purpose through the Sanctuary was not to point to buildings and furniture, even though there is a literal sanctuary in heaven, but to reveal His plan of salvation in Christ."

"In the incarnation, God united the divinity of Christ to our corporate humanity that needed redeeming. This qualified Him to be our Substitute and Representative. Then, by His perfect life and sacrificial death, He fully redeemed mankind. In the resurrection, Christ raised our humanity cleansed and glorified, which He took to heaven to represent us in His priestly ministry."

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Robert's response to the above Fundamental Belief:

Quote:

BS!

Here's what my man Jack says concerning the "sanctuary":

"My honest belief is that our pioneers who first formulated this doctrine from their study of the Bible, and which was later endorsed by Ellen G. White, were lead by God, in spite of their limitations."

What "limitations"? Let's see...

Jack goes on to state, "God’s purpose through the Sanctuary was not to point to buildings and furniture, even though there is a literal sanctuary in heaven, but to reveal His plan of salvation in Christ."

"In the incarnation, God united the divinity of Christ to our corporate humanity that needed redeeming. This qualified Him to be our Substitute and Representative. Then, by His perfect life and sacrificial death, He fully redeemed mankind. In the resurrection, Christ raised our humanity cleansed and glorified, which He took to heaven to represent us in His priestly ministry."

I know Jack says those words. I know from which book you got Jack's quotes. But you need to keep reading Jack on the sanctuary. I agree with those statements by Jack.

He agrees with the SDA statement of FB that you said is "BS". Ask him some time.

Keep reading Jack's book, Show and Tell. But study others also, such as Ellen White's Great Controversy. Remember that Jack is not a prophet nor the son of a prophet. Jack will tell you that Ellen White was a prophet.

Also read a very good book filled with Bible evidence, titled, The Silencing of Satan, by Brad Williams.

READ WIDELY.

[Robert]

Remember that Jack is not a prophet nor the son of a prophet. Jack will tell you that Ellen White was a prophet.

As Jack correctly states, EGW and the founders of the SDA denomination had "limitations". They created a very legalistic message.

[Robert]

He agrees with the SDA statement of FB that you said is "BS". Ask him some time.

No he doesn't....It has to be modified because as it stands it is very legalistic.

[phkrause]

I'm guessing he is referring to Matthew 19:16, where the rich younger ruler is asking Christ what he should do, to have eternal life.

pk

[Robert]

I'm guessing he is referring to Matthew 19:16, where the rich younger ruler is asking Christ what he should do, to have eternal life.

pk

Yes, but not according to grace, but the law. Remember Christ said, "If you would be perfect, sell all you have and give your money to the poor and come and follow in My footsteps." In other words live only for others and not yourself as I do. That's what the law requires - no self-seeking...no self-love, just selflessness, i.e., agape love.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

He agrees with the SDA statement of FB that you said is "BS". Ask him some time.

No he doesn't....It has to be modified because as it stands it is very legalistic.

Show quotes where he clearly disagrees with the statement of our FB on the sanctuary.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

I'm guessing he is referring to Matthew 19:16, where the rich younger ruler is asking Christ what he should do, to have eternal life.

pk

Yes, but not according to grace, but the law. Remember Christ said, "If you would be perfect, sell all you have and give your money to the poor and come and follow in My footsteps." In other words live only for others and not yourself as I do. That's what the law requires - no self-seeking...no self-love, just selflessness, i.e., agape love.

No one will be saved who continued to deliberately break God's law and didn't repent and change, Robert. Salvation is by grace and part of that grace is God's giving us the gift of genuine repentance. It also includes the gift of the Holy Spirit which leads to a changed life, often called the Second Birth. This leads to conformity to God's will. God's will is His law.

It's a matter of the roots. If the roots of a lemon tree are any good and if they're getting water and are healthy, it will produce lemons. That's the same with us. If we are genuinely part of Christ and we have a healthy relationship with him, our life will tell. The fruit will be there. If our life doesn't tell, and if the fruit isn't there, we need to look carefully at our relationship with Christ.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Yes, but not according to grace, but the law. Remember Christ said, "If you would be perfect, sell all you have and give your money to the poor and come and follow in My footsteps." In other words live only for others and not yourself as I do. That's what the law requires - no self-seeking...no self-love, just selflessness, i.e., agape love.[/quote']

No one will be saved who continued to deliberately break God's law and didn't repent and change, Robert. Salvation is by grace and part of that grace is God's giving us the gift of genuine repentance. It also includes the gift of the Holy Spirit which leads to a changed life, often called the Second Birth. This leads to conformity to God's will. God's will is His law.

Then you will be lost. Who are you kidding?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

No he doesn't....It has to be modified because as it stands it is very legalistic.

Show quotes where he clearly disagrees with the statement of our FB on the sanctuary.

Jack doesn't have us facing the law in the sanctuary model (as do many SDA)....He is very Biblical.

[Robert]

Jack:

“Unto 2,300 days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”

This scripture, wrote Ellen G. White, was the foundation and central pillar of the advent faith (Great Controversy, page 409). In the last study, I touched on the linguistic and contextual problem created by our traditional interpretation of this text and which has caused many in our midst to reject 1844.

However, as I mentioned in that study, 1844 is significant to our global mission, including [our missions at individual churches]. I trust this will become crystal clear in today’s study. In the last study, I laid the foundation to what I believe is the correct interpretation of Dan. 8:14. Today we will see why 1844 is significant to our global and local church mission.

But first a quick review to jog your memory. In order to come to a correct understanding of Dan. 8:14, we first looked at this verse in the context of the entire book of Daniel. In doing so, we discovered two things:

1. That chapter 8 of Daniel belongs to the prophet section of this book, and

2. That all the prophetic chapters of Daniel — especially chapters 2, 7, and 8 — use the principal of parallelism, i.e., they repeat or recapitulate world events.

Therefore, following the hermeneutic principal of parallelism or recapitulation, we discovered that the Great Stone of Dan. 2, the Judgment scene of Dan. 7, and the cleansing of the Sanctuary of Dan. 8 all belong to the Kingdom of God period. Each of these three symbols is introduced by the word “till” (in the original), indicating the end of all human kingdoms and the ushering of God’s everlasting kingdom.

Following this, we did an exegesis of chapter 8 itself. We discovered that, of the four symbols Daniel was shown in this vision, the first three were explained, but when it came to the fourth (i.e., Dan. 8:14), all that the prophet was told was that it is true but its meaning was to be sealed since it belonged to the distant future, confirming that the cleansing or vindication of the sanctuary is a last-day event, belonging to the kingdom of God [read Dan. 8:26].

However, this news was devastating to Daniel [look at verse 27]. Why did the prophet take this information so hard? The answer is found in chapter 9 of Daniel. After wresting with Dan. 8:14 for some 13 years, Daniel finally decided to plead with God in prayer [read Dan. 9:1-3].

To appreciate Daniel’s prayer and concern, keep in mind three facts:

1. At the time that Daniel was given the vision of chapter 8, the earthly sanctuary and the city of Jerusalem were lying in ruins.

2. In Daniel’s day, nations fought in the name of their gods. Therefore, the god of the victorious nation was considered superior to the god of the defeated nation. Since Babylon had defeated Israel and destroyed the city of Jerusalem and the temple, this implied that the god of Babylon was greater than Israel’s God. This was Daniel’s main concern.

3. According to Jeremiah’s prophecy, a contemporary of Daniel, the desolation of the temple and the city would last only 70 years. This period was about to expire at the time Daniel was given the vision of chapter 8.

So when Daniel was told by Gabriel that the cleansing of the sanctuary would be accomplished in the distant future, he immediately concluded that God had changed His mind and postponed the restoration of the earthly temple and the city of Jerusalem. Note the plea of his prayer [read Dan. 9:17-19]. This created a problem for God. Why? Because, as we have already seen, the vision of Dan. 8:14 referred to the establishing of God’s kingdom on earth in the last days and not the restoration of the earthly sanctuary.

But since God did not want to disappoint His beloved prophet Daniel, He did what Christ did to the disciples when they linked the destruction of Jerusalem, which took place in 70 A.D., with His second coming, which is still future [read Matt. 23:37-24:3].

Going back to Daniel 9, please notice how God responded to the plea of Daniel’s prayer [read Dan. 9:20-23]. According to this statement, the angel Gabriel now comes to explain the unexplained part of the Dan. 8 vision, namely verse 14.

But when we read Gabriel’s explanation of Dan. 8:14 in Dan. 9:24-27, we discover that all Daniel is told is about the final probation period determined for his people Israel, i.e., 490 years [read verses 24-27]. Does this mean the real explanation of Dan. 8:14 was not really given? If so, then Gabriel lied, because he clearly stated in verse 22, “I have come to give you insight and understanding,” i.e., regarding Dan. 8:14.

However, God does not lie. Therefore, the only way we can resolve the problem is to give verses 24-27 of chapter 9 a dual application, just as we do with Matthew 24, the 490 years being the final probation period for the Jewish nation while the period following 2,300 days will be the final or last days for the Gentile world. According to Dan. 9:24-27, five events take place:

1. The 490 years begins with a command to restore the temple and the city of Jerusalem [read verse 25a].

2. For this command to be carried out, the Jews would have to come out of Babylon and return to Israel. This is implied.

3. Next comes the actual restoration of the temple and city. However, note that this would be a difficult task because of troublous times [read verse 25b].

4. Finally, during the last seven years of the 490-year period, the covenant promised through the sanctuary model would be confirmed: The Messiah would come. Keep in mind the sanctuary and its services were a visual aid of the plan of redemption in Christ [Ex. 25:8; Jn. 1:14; Jn. 2:18-22 (for context, read Jn. 2:12-16)]. Unfortunately, Israel would reject Him and this would bring the probation period for the Jewish nation to an end [read verse 26, 27].

5. When the Jewish nation rejected Christ, after the miracle of the resurrection, they had committed the abomination of desolation (their rejection of Christ was deliberate and final). The evidence of this was the stoning of Stephen in 34 A.D. [read Acts 7:44-52].

Now, taking these five points which sums up Gabriel’s explanation of Dan. 8:14, we will apply the same five points to 1844 and the cleansing or reconsecration of the sanctuary truth, the true gospel the little horn cast to the ground and prospered:

1. The command to re-proclaim the gospel truth was given in 1844. [Read Rev. 10:11 in context.] The only book of the Old Testament that was sealed till the time of the end was Daniel (Dan. 8:26; 12:4). For further support that 2,300 is equal to years, the “evening morning” is singular: the 2,300th Day of Atonement.

2. For the above command to be carried out, God’s people will have to come out of spiritual Babylon [read Dan. 4:30].

3. The restoration of the everlasting gospel will be realized, but through troublous times. That is where we are today.

4. When the gospel is finally restored and proclaimed with a loud voice, Matt. 24:14 will be fulfilled. Thus the gospel covenant will be confirmed to the Gentile world. But Christ will be deliberately and finally rejected. This will be the abomination that will make this world desolate.

5. The end of the world will come and God’s kingdom will be established.

[John317]

Yes, I agree with all that.

But there, all he is doing is showing the evidence for the IJ. Let's get to the meaning of the IJ and what the IJ is all about. WHY have the IJ?

[Robert]

The court was seated, and the books were opened. – Dan. 7:10b

So far, in our study of the sanctuary doctrine, we have already seen that the sanctuary message is vitally linked to the everlasting gospel. It is God’s visual aid of the entire plan of salvation, from beginning to end. Then we spent two whole studies on the significance of 1844. It is the date God raised the Advent Movement and commanded them to cleanse the gospel of all errors and proclaim to the world the pure everlasting gospel as God’s final warning to the human race.

Now we will turn our attention to the investigative judgment. This is another major gospel issued in Adventism. In 1980, I was asked to defend the doctrines of our church before the student and faculty body of the largest theological seminary in East Africa, Scot Theological Seminary. The first question they bombarded me with was: “Please defend the SDA investigative judgment doctrine in the light of justification by faith.” This same question is been raised today by many of our own scholars and pastors.

According to our traditional teaching, we have given the impression that the purpose of the investigative judgment is to find out who among the saints are good enough to go to heaven. This, they say, is a contradiction of the truth of justification by faith. According to 2 Tim. 2:19, “the Lord knows those who are His.” If that is true, why the need of an investigative judgment? Once again, we have to ask the question: have we been following cunningly devised fables? And my answer is a definite NO!

However, as with the other gospel issues, we must also present this doctrine in the context of the everlasting gospel and the truth of justification by faith. That is what we are going to do here regarding this issue of the investigative judgment. To start with, the last day judgment, typified by the sanctuary’s Day of Atonement service, is not only a key Biblical doctrine, mentioned in almost every book of the Bible, but this judgment also includes the judgment of the believers [read Rom. 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:9, 10; 1 Pet. 4:17].

But if God knows those who are His, why the need of judging the believers? The answer is not because God has to find out who among the saints are good enough to go to heaven. If that is true, then we are no longer saved by grace. The reason for the investigative judgment is because we are being accused day and night by the enemy of souls, i.e., Satan [read Rev. 12:10]. Before Christ can come to take us to heaven and establish His kingdom, He has to vindicate the saints. This is the whole purpose of the investigative or, more accurately, the pre-advent judgment described in Daniel chapter 7. There are three phases of judgment in Daniel 7:

* the trial (verses 9 & 10);

* the verdict (verses 21 & 22); and

* the execution of the verdict (verses 26 & 27).

While it is true that the cleansing of the sanctuary of Daniel 8:14 has to do with the cleansing of the gospel and, therefore, may not be linked with the cleansing of the sanctuary described in the book Leviticus, the judgment scene of Daniel 7 and the cleansing of the sanctuary of Leviticus are definitely connected. Why is this so? Because the cleansing of the sanctuary mentioned in Leviticus has to do with the Day of Atonement. Understood by the Jews as the solemn day of judgment [read Lev. 16:29-31; 23:26-31].

According to these texts, for Christ our High Priest to vindicate the saints in the judgment and cleanse us of all Satan’s accusations, the saints are required to do two things:

1. They are to afflict their soul or deny self; and

2. They are to do no work on that day, it is a solemn day of Sabbath rest.

Failure to meet these requirements means Christ cannot vindicate us, i.e., we will be cut off ... or be lost.

Our part in the judgment is to stand firmly on the gospel platform of Not I, but Christ. This is what justification by faith is all about [read Phil. 3:9 (in the context of vs. 3-8)]. Christ’s part in the judgment, as our High Priest, is to vindicate the saints and acquit them of Satan’s accusations [read Zec. 3:1-4]. This is what the Day of Atonement service pointed to.

But how does Christ vindicate the saints, who are condemned by His own law as sinners, yet who are standing solidly on the platform of justification by faith or not I, but Christ? Before I can answer this question, I need to expose you to a Biblical paradox concerning the truth of justification by faith. The Bible, and especially the New Testament, contains two sets or groups of texts that on the surfice seem to contradict each other.

On the one hand, you have statements that clearly indicated that we sinners are saved by grace alone, or justified by faith alone, apart from keeping the law or doing any good works. On the other hand, this same Bible, and especially the New Testament, also tells us that we Christians will be judged and rewarded according to our works. In case you think I am creating this problem, let me point you to a few of these paradoxical texts:

* Justified by faith alone: Rom. 3:28; 4:5; Eph. 2:8,9; Titus 3:5.

* Judged by works: Matt. 16:27; Jn. 5:28,29; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 22:12.

Because the human mind cannot easily handle contradictions or paradoxes in the Bible, the tendency has been to harp on one group of texts at the expense of the other. For example, the evangelical Seventh-day Adventists emphasize the “justification by faith” texts while the conservative SDAs emphasize the “judged by works” texts. But truth demands that we give both texts equal consideration. Only then will we be able to solve the paradoxical problem as well as explain how Christ is able to vindicate the saints in the judgment.

To solve the paradoxical problem of these two groups of texts, we must look at a third group of texts that brings these two sets of texts together. This third group of texts point out that genuine justification by faith always produces works. These works do not have any merits or save us but they are clearly the evidence of justification by faith. The apostle James makes it very clear that faith without works is dead [read Ja. 2:14,17,20].

What James is saying here is that if justification by faith does not produce works of love, then really our faith is a sham and, therefore, nonexistent. Notice how he uses Abraham, the father of the Jews as well as justification by faith, as an example [read verse 21-24]. Incidentally, we must not confuse works of faith, which James is here upholding, with works of the law, which Paul condemns in his epistles-explain the difference [1 Thes. 1:2,3].

Having solved this paradoxical problem between faith and works, we are now in a position to see how Christ is able, in the investigative judgment, to vindicate believing sinners who put their faith in His righteousness. While Satan may be right in accusing us as sinners Christ, our advocate, brings up our works — not to prove our righteousness, for we have none, but to prove our faith in His righteousness, i.e., righteousness by faith.

Christians who by faith put their full confidence in the righteousness of Christ will manifest it by their works of faith. In the investigative judgment, these works will be used by Christ, our defense lawyer, to prove our faith is in His righteousness [read Rom. 10:4]. Once He does that, Satan will have to prove that Christ Himself is a sinner. This he cannot do [read Jn. 14:30].

As a result, Christ will win the case and rebuke Satan (Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire?). That is why the doctrine of the investigative judgment is good news and must be proclaimed as part and parcel of the plan of salvation [read 1 Jn. 4:16-18].

There was a time the investigative judgment put fear into my life. But today I am anxious that my name comes up soon in the judgment.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Show quotes where he clearly disagrees with the statement of our FB on the sanctuary.

Jack doesn't have us facing the law in the sanctuary model (as do many SDA)....He is very Biblical.

This explains why you like Jack. But it is based on a misunderstanding of Jack.

What is the legal basis of the IJ? What is the legal measuring stick in the judgment? In any court of law' date=' the legal basis are the laws, i.e., the constitution and the statutes. God has a government and it has laws, naturally. You apparently don't like God's laws, but God's laws are an expression of who He is. James 2: 8-13 tells us what the legal basis of the judgment is: the law of God.

It is the foundation of God's throne. That is why it is in the ark of His covenant and under the mercy seat.

Do you reject the following statement by Ellen White? Do you have a statement by Jack in which he also contradicts this Ellen White statement?

Quote:

He who becomes a partaker of the divine nature will be in harmony with God's great standard of righteousness, His holy law. This is the rule by which God measures the actions of men. This will be the test of character in the judgment. COL 314[/quote']

[John317]

The c

Having solved this paradoxical problem between faith and works, we are now in a position to see how Christ is able, in the investigative judgment, to vindicate believing sinners who put their faith in His righteousness. While Satan may be right in accusing us as sinners Christ, our advocate, brings up our works — not to prove our righteousness, for we have none, but to prove our faith in His righteousness, i.e., righteousness by faith.

Christians who by faith put their full confidence in the righteousness of Christ will manifest it by their works of faith. In the investigative judgment, these works will be used by Christ, our defense lawyer, to prove our faith is in His righteousness [read Rom. 10:4]. Once He does that, Satan will have to prove that Christ Himself is a sinner. This he cannot do [read Jn. 14:30].

I agree with Jack in that last post.

Look at the lines in bold above. This is what I have been telling you.

Jack, of course, would not want you to think that he has told you all there is to know about the IJ. So keep reading and studying. Don't stop with Jack. He wouldn't want that.

By the way, it agrees with the SDA FB statement on the sanctuary. Go back and reread it and then show me where Jack disagrees with it. Where would Jack agree with you by calling it BS?

[Robert]

What is the legal basis of the IJ?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What is the legal basis of the IJ?

First, why is there a judgment? Because Satan accuses God of bypassing His law. But "in Christ" (and your life was "in Him) the law has been answered. Hence the legal basis of the pre-advent judgment is Christ!

Christ is the law. The law is within His heart. The law is a written expression of Christ's character.

If you don't love the law, you don't love Christ. Read Ps. 119. "How I love your law," says the servant of the Lord under divine Inspiration. That is the attitude of people who are under complete submission to God and His law. They are no longer in rebellion. They want the law in their own hearts, and the Holy Spirit is writing it there. That is how the law of God becomes a part of us.

[John317]

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: John317

Look at the lines in bold above. This is what I have been telling you.

"Christians who by faith put their full confidence in the righteousness of Christ will manifest it by their works of faith."

No, you haven't been telling me any such thing! What you have given me is law, law, law.....Jack isn't talking about law. Turn to James 2:20-25

20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

Where, in the law, did it instruct Abraham to kill Issac? Yes? Now I can find where it says, "Do not kill", but I can't find the above.

22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Notice, Rahab's goodness or righteousness is not the issue. I mean after all she was a prostitute! God's law condemns all sexual immorality, but yet her works (in this case helping the spies) proved her faith.

[John317]

22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Notice, Rahab's goodness or righteousness is not the issue. I mean after all she was a prostitute! God's law condemns all sexual immorality, but yet her works (in this case helping the spies) proved her faith.

And she wouldn't be saved in God's kingdom if she continued to be a prostitute to the end of her life and never repented of her sins and changed.

You are taking God's grace to be a reason to keep sinning, and that is exactly what Paul was inspired to reject in Romans 6: 1, 15.

Just because God justifies us when we come to him does not mean that we are to continue in the sins we may be ignorantly committing at the time we first come to Christ. When I first came to Christ and was justified by faith, I was living with a man in a homosexual relationship.

Do you believe that if I was still living that way, I would still be justified and be saved in God's kingdom? No. If I was still living that way, it would prove that my faith is not genuine and that I really do not understand the gospel. It is the same with Rahab.

[Robert]

You're only seeing one aspect of the law. That is the aspect of the law which is for unbelievers and which condemns them so they see their need of Christ. You now need to move beyond that and see the other purposes of God's law. There is much more to it. You are stuck on the legalistic aspects of it.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Notice, Rahab's goodness or righteousness is not the issue. I mean after all she was a prostitute! God's law condemns all sexual immorality, but yet her works (in this case helping the spies) proved her faith.

And she wouldn't be saved in God's kingdom if she continued to be a prostitute to the end of her life and never repented of her sins and changed.

I'm sorry that you can't read! It doesn't do your little song and dance (spin) routine. It simply says that Rabab's faith was real because she helped the spies. Her justification by faith was real in that she assisted the spies and lied. Keep it simple.

[John317]

Where, in the law, did it instruct Abraham to kill Issac? Yes? Now I can find where it says, "Do not kill", but I can't find the above.

You don't get it. Abraham was justified by God's grace through faith. But what was his faith? His faith was in everything God told him to do, even to the point of killing his own son, ONLY ON THE NAKED WORD OF GOD.

If Abraham was justified because of his faith in every word that proceeds from God's mouth, do you think He would have balked at the keeping of God's law, including the Sabbath?

If we have a faith like Abraham's we will run to do the Lord's will, not find all kinds of foolish reasons in the details to convince us that we don't need to obey Him.

[Robert]

Just because God justifies us when we come to him does not mean that we are to continue in the sins we may be ignorantly committing at the time we first come to Christ.

There's nothing "ignorant" in committing sexual sins. By nature...by revelation, folks know they are doing wrong. It's a given just as murder and theft are known.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Just because God justifies us when we come to him does not mean that we are to continue in the sins we may be ignorantly committing at the time we first come to Christ.

There's nothing "ignorant" in committing sexual sins. By nature...by revelation, folks know they are doing wrong. It's a given just as murder and theft are known.

Yeah that is true but what I am getting at is that as the Holy Spirit convicts us of them and opens our eyes as to their sinfulness, how God views them-- they are sins we commit out of ignorance to that extent; you know, spiritually ignorant.