How do we overcome sin?

[Lutz13]

Quote:

God asks us to forsake/abandon those things that come between Him and us. I don't believe God is in the business of making every believer poor.

Indeed, but this is not an overnight process. Some people yes, others not. Not everyone is the same, and God deals with each person on an individual basis. What works for you, doesn't always work for the person next to you.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

It's easy to make that logic when one ignores a major portion of the Holy Scriptures.

Regards!

Words...mere words....Christ is everything' date=' buildings are meaningless. Get your eyes off all the side issues and focus on Christ.

Rob [/quote']

You are ruining this thread with your combative negativity Robert.

Please stop.

Mark

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

That was for Israel....We now have Christ....Everything pointed to Christ....Get with the NT. Get off the building...as a matter of fact, jump off! teehe

"Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man." Heb 8:1,2 ESV.

Heb 10: 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will.".... 10 And by that will, we have been made holy [past tense] through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins [refers to your sanctuary services]. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God [i.e., He was finished - once for all]. ... 14 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified (set apart). 15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: 16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my law in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." 17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." 18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the most holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

His flesh....Hmmm? Like I said, "in Christ" we stand perfect before God's holy law. End of story.

Rob

[Robert]

you are to love only your neighbor; it is a sin to love yourself!

Very good! Now you agree with EGW. BTW, show me where Christ loved himself? He couldn't see beyond the grave, hope didn't present Him being resurrected because His father had forsook Him. He was tempted to love self and come down of the cross and save Himself. After all, He was innocent...He had done nothing wrong. So He was tempted by our bent-to-self, but instead He loved us more than Himself because there's no self-love in agape. He was willing to die for eternity so that you could have heaven in His place.

[Robert]

I don't believe God is in the business of making every believer poor.

But your wealth wasn't gained because others had no thoughts of themselves and solely lived for you. You gained your wealth through hard work. That took a lot of self-interests and self-seeking.

Heaven's way of gaining wealth is contained in the following:

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

Note heaven's prescription for wealth is not living for yourself - i.e., loving self, but living for others with no thought towards yourself.

Rob

[Robert]

Mark 9:35 "If anyone wants to be first (a self-centered motivation), he must be the very last, and the servant of all."

Where's that living for self? I can't find it. Where's that love self and love your neighbor? I can't find those two commandments, but I can find "love your neighbor" - not self.

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Let it be noted that Gerry mocks EGW.

Rob

[color:blue]

Belittle your opponent. Mock him. Twist his words.

You do the same, Gerry....Open your eyes. Why? We love self, self gets defensive...it pays back. We are both guilty. We love to be right....

Rob

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I don't believe God is in the business of making every believer poor.

But your wealth wasn't gained because others had no thoughts of themselves and solely lived for you. You gained your wealth through hard work. That took a lot of self-interests and self-seeking.

Heaven's way of gaining wealth is contained in the following:

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

Note heaven's prescription for wealth is not living for yourself - i.e., loving self, but living for others with no thought towards yourself.

Rob

Since you have branded EGW as a false prophet, stop quoting her and use SOLA SCRIPTURA.

[Gerr]

Quote:

You do the same, Gerry....Open your eyes. Why? We love self, self gets defensive...it pays back. We are both guilty. We love to be right....

Rob

Then let's stop the insults and personal attacks. Let's have a civil discussion.

Look, Robert, I am more interested in the truth than being right. You may not believe that, but that is the honest truth. The sooner I get rid of a falsehood that I hold, the better for sure. So if I don't accept something, it's because I can't square it with Scripture. I have to be honest with myself. I hope you feel the same. Then someday, the Lord will just have to show us where the truth lies.

[Gerr]

Mark 9:35 "If anyone wants to be first (a self-centered motivation), he must be the very last, and the servant of all."

Where's that living for self? I can't find it. Where's that love self and love your neighbor? I can't find those two commandments, but I can find "love your neighbor" - not self.

Rob

There's a universe of difference between "living for self" and loving your neighbor AS you love yourself. In the former, the universe revolves around one's self. In the latter, the universe revolves around no one. All are equal.

[Lutz13]

Alright, I know this was brought down a bit. I know we seem to have different views of what sin is. I tend to think it is a self loving act. Others may not agree. Something we all agree on though is that sin kills, and we all want victory over it.

I seem to be stuck right here:

"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find."(Romans 7:18)

I'm not finding the willpower to do good, but I keep trying. I now know that this is something that I cannot do with any of my own will power. That the strength to accomplish and do good is only found in Christ.

"For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do[i will to do good] that I do not practice; but what I hate that I do.[i do evil]"(Romans 7:15)

So, how do I get myself out of the way, and allow Jesus do to His work. To restore the image of God?

[Gail]

Lutz, as long as you are focusing on yourself you will continue to be despondent. That is exactly what happens.

Try changing your thought patterns a bit and focus on the Lord who has our only remedy and promises us abundant life. When you are tempted to think thoughts of self, praise God instead for His promises. Take His promises in His word, the ones that speak to you and give you hope and peace, and thank God for them.

That way you will train your mind to practise faith instead of dwelling on your human impotent state. See if this doesn't help your heart to soar when you spend time on your knees and in God's word.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Lutz, as long as you are focusing on yourself you will continue to be despondent. That is exactly what happens.

Try changing your thought patterns a bit and focus on the Lord who has our only remedy and promises us abundant life. When you are tempted to think thoughts of self, praise God instead for His promises. Take His promises in His word, the ones that speak to you and give you hope and peace, and thank God for them.

That way you will train your mind to practise faith instead of dwelling on your human impotent state. See if this doesn't help your heart to soar when you spend time on your knees and in God's word.

Thank you Gail. Maybe that is where I was derailed. When I quit smoking I was daily looking for the promises of God, and made it a goal to memorize at least a few a week.

[Gail]

Lutz, we are all in this together. When we are humbled the Lord promises to lift us up

((( Lutz )))

[Gerr]

Mark 9:35 "If anyone wants to be first (a self-centered motivation), he must be the very last, and the servant of all."

Where's that living for self? I can't find it. Where's that love self and love your neighbor? I can't find those two commandments, but I can find "love your neighbor" - not self.

Rob

As you would tell me I am telling you now, if you open your eyes and put on your spiritual glasses, then you will see it. It is NOT self-centeredness to love others AS (in the SAME MANNER) as one loves self. There is NO primacy of self when one loves others AS one loves self. To love others AS one loves self is NOT living for self.

[Twilight]

Alright, I know this was brought down a bit. I know we seem to have different views of what sin is. I tend to think it is a self loving act. Others may not agree. Something we all agree on though is that sin kills, and we all want victory over it.

I seem to be stuck right here:

"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find."(Romans 7:18)

I'm not finding the willpower to do good, but I keep trying. I now know that this is something that I cannot do with any of my own will power. That the strength to accomplish and do good is only found in Christ.

"For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do[i will to do good] that I do not practice; but what I hate that I do.[i do evil]"(Romans 7:15)

So, how do I get myself out of the way, and allow Jesus do to His work. To restore the image of God?

First point Lutz is to understand how to overcome sin, is to understand how to ask God for the victory.

We know that in our flesh we cannot overcome sin. So we need Gods help.

There is only one argument that will help us with God, only one.

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But first we have to understand the pre Holy Spirit experience and the difference with the post Holy Spirit experience.

In Romans 7:12-25, Paul is talking about an experience we have.

Key points:

1. Our flesh desires to sin.

2. Our mind resists.

3. Our flesh is stronger than our mind.

If you read this section of Romans I have posted above, you will see hopefully this principle expressed.

Do you see that my friend?

Mark

[Kevin H]

"When we love the world as he [Jesus] has loved it then for us his mission is accomplished; We are fitted for heaven for we have heaven in out hearts." DA 641

As we learn more and more about Jesus, more and more about the Bible, and become aware of our sinful nature we become repulsed by our sinful nature and choose against it and as we allow the Holy Spirit to draw us closer to Jesus we will by beholding become changed.

The problem is "There is in man a disposition to esteam himself above his breatheren, to serve self, to seek the highest place and often this results in evil surmisings and bitterness of spirit" DA chapter on footwashing. or as put by the poet/philosopher Eli Siegel "There is in every person a disposition to think they are for themselves by making less of the outside world"

When it comes to seeing how our sinful nature controls our lifes so that we can choose againt it you may find useful: C. S. Lewis "The Great Divorce" a fantastic book on why people are lost and too often we can see ourselves in the stories. Also his "The Screwtape letters" show common ways how Satan trys to get us. Although somewhat controverserial, and not from a religious approach Eli Siegel's "Self and World" and "A Children's guide To Parents and Other Matters" offers a lot of food for thought; as well as Dr. William Glasser's "Choice Theory" It is interesting to compare Siegel's "1A and 2A pleasure" with Glasser's "Pleasure vs. Happiness" they are both on to something that it would be wise for us to explore. (While off this topic, I would like to put in a plug for Glasser's "Getting together and staying together; solving the mystery of marriage" as a powerful book for getting to know yourself and foundational for making better choices; and if some of you are having marriage difficulties his newest book is "Eight Lessons for a Happier Marriage." and for education "Every Student can Suceed") back on topic, two doctors who work with Dr. Glasser has "A set of Directions for Putting and Keeping yourself together." by Robert E. Wubbolding and John Brickell.

Add these books to your reading and you will have a much clearer view of the sin problem, the grasp it has on your life and what Jesus came to free us from, and they will open your eyes wider as you return to the Bible and Mrs. White, which of course will deepen your insights to what you learned in these books, and use these to know the Bible better so that you can get to know the God of the Bible better so that as we behold Jesus you become changed.

Sorry to the so called "Historic Adventists" among us; The expirence of the last generation is not a different level than some saints of the past (such as Joseph, Daniel, Job, John Wesley) reached, but in the past these people were people here and there; the last generation every character will be fully developed either for good or evil. Last generation perfection is a difference of quantity, not quality. A church full of Josephs, Daniels, Jobs and John Wesleys.

Also useful study would be looking at John Wesley, and the works of Abraham Joshua Heshel, especially "The Prophets" It would also be useful to spend a thoughtful hour each day reading the cover of Mrs. White's biography of Jesus. I think that to to many of us the title has just become a few words and not a real sentence that we have actually read and thought about what she is saying and why she choose those words. We need to put in much more thought on those words.

I hope some of you will check out these books and that you will find it useful, and again let me close with that oh so powerful sentence from Mrs. White "When we love the world as he [Jesus] has loved it, then for us his mission is accomplished; we are fitted for heaven for we have heaven in out hearts."

[Robert]

It is NOT self-centeredness to love others AS (in the SAME MANNER) as one loves self. ....To love others AS one loves self is NOT living for self.

Let's look at Christ's life, especially during the crucifixion:

As Jesus hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins [i.e., abandonment], Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. That is, He could not love Himself and the world simultaneously. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

In other words, the supreme sacrifice is that Jesus was willing to accept our curse and give us His life in exchange. It was not a question of saving Himself and the world. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between the world and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this; He was saying that He loves us more than Himself. That is God’s agape.

[Kevin H]

Sorry Robert, while you are right and he could not save himself and the world at the same time, if he loved himself more than the world he would have lost all those who he wanted a relationship with, all on earth and as we study the issues of the great controversy, he would have lost the angels and beings on other planets. In following the only course of action to save the world he was able to have the realationship he had with those he loves, thus ending up loving his neighbor as himself. Had he loved himself more than his neighbor he could have saved himself but not the world.

[Robert]

....In following the only course of action to save the world he was able to have the relationship he had with those he loves, thus ending up loving his neighbor as himself.

Earth to Kevin ....You missed out on a very, very important point:

When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).

Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. Then read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead.

Keep these two things in mind: Christ was God-dependent, and He was dependent on the Father for the resurrection.

Do you know what the Father did on the cross? Christ cried out: “Father, Father why have you forsaken me?” What He meant is not “Why are you leaving me for three days?” but, “Why have You abandoned Me?” Do you know what that meant to Christ? It meant that the hope of the resurrection went with that abandonment.[JS]

So, when Christ died, He died without the hope of a resurrection. To Him it was goodbye to life forever!!! Who did He gave up eternal life for? Not only for His small group of friends (most of them had abandon Him), but especially for His enemies. Where's the so called self-love in that? No, Jesus loved others more than Himself because there's no self-love in agape. The cross proves this....

The cross is God's verdict on the love of self!!! Read Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit [the power of agape] of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin [the love of self] and of death [the 2nd death]. 3 For what the law could not do [it can't save], in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and because of sin, He condemned sin [where?] in the flesh [in our humanity]!

The reason we are fallen is because our humanity is indwelt with the principle of the love of self. That's why God could say that David was sinful by birth. While babies can't reason at birth, they know by nature how to be self-centered. They are by nature egocentric. They are born bent-towards-self!

Why? Sin...the love of self.

Rob

[Lutz13]

Quote:

1. Our flesh desires to sin.

2. Our mind resists.

3. Our flesh is stronger than our mind.

If you read this section of Romans I have posted above, you will see hopefully this principle expressed.

Thanks for the above. I have studied much of Romans 7 and it was a good study.

How quickly I forget such things though. When I desire to sin, my mind doesn't want it. The mind being weaker than the flesh, I have to call out to God for His Spirit to come conquer the flesh because I can't with my mind.

[Twilight]

Quote:

1. Our flesh desires to sin.

2. Our mind resists.

3. Our flesh is stronger than our mind.

If you read this section of Romans I have posted above, you will see hopefully this principle expressed.

Thanks for the above. I have studied much of Romans 7 and it was a good study.

How quickly I forget such things though. When I desire to sin, my mind doesn't want it. The mind being weaker than the flesh, I have to call out to God for His Spirit to come conquer the flesh because I can't with my mind.

If you carry on Lutz, you will see that in Romans 8:1, this power of sin over your mind is broken.

By this simple sum:

Holy Spirit + Will > Flesh

So the Holy Spirit with the will surrendered to it, will overcome the Flesh.

But receiving the Holy Spirit, is based on our understanding of something very important, if you agree with the above, I would like to share this with you.

God Bless,

Mark :-)

[Lutz13]

Quote:

f you carry on Lutz, you will see that in Romans 8:1, this power of sin over your mind is broken.

By this simple sum:

Holy Spirit + Will > Flesh

So the Holy Spirit with the will surrendered to it, will overcome the Flesh.

But receiving the Holy Spirit, is based on our understanding of something very important, if you agree with the above, I would like to share this with you.

God Bless,

Mark :-)

Right, this is easily agreeable. How does one surrender the will though? Actually, I think I know the answer to that. There is always a huge struggle, and once I finally realize that I can't do it. It becomes easy to just bow down.

Would love to hear what you wish to share.

[Twilight]

Quote:

f you carry on Lutz, you will see that in Romans 8:1, this power of sin over your mind is broken.

By this simple sum:

Holy Spirit + Will > Flesh

So the Holy Spirit with the will surrendered to it, will overcome the Flesh.

But receiving the Holy Spirit, is based on our understanding of something very important, if you agree with the above, I would like to share this with you.

God Bless,

Mark :-)

Right, this is easily agreeable. How does one surrender the will though? Actually, I think I know the answer to that. There is always a huge struggle, and once I finally realize that I can't do it. It becomes easy to just bow down.

Would love to hear what you wish to share.

The secret is entering into the sanctuary in the correct spiritual sequence and under the right terms.

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The sequence:

1. Accept that you have been crucified with Christ.

2. Accept you have been baptised, washed and renewed by the Holy Spirit.

3. Enter into the sanctuary.

These are all daily points,

But the key is to get to is number 3.

Because number 3 unlocks 1 and 2 fully.

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How do we gain access to the Sanctuary?

Through the blood of Christ.

This the currency of Heaven, this is the "coin" of our "redemption". Redeemed means to be purchased.

We are purchased by the blood of Christ.

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So to enter into the throne room of heaven, we need what?

To purchase the promises of God, we need what?

I will carry on, when you have confirmed I have not gone too far ahead.

Mark :-)