jasd Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 >>And jasd, it is your choice.<< Exactly. It is a matter of conscience and not dependent upon this or that questionable exposition of these few or those many. >>I would agree with you that it would be self evident...<< Perhaps, I should have said prima facie? >>IF I were to believe the words of Paul.<< Actually, what I posited re the original Sabbath being lost and now known only to Gd – initially derives from Hosea and Jeremiah – rather than from anything St Paul may or may not have said. Quote
Dr. Rich Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 Ok John317, I see where you wrote that traditions mean nothing to Paul and you agree, so I suppose you then would have to agree with jasd that it is self evident Sunday is the new sabbath. If this is true, then how come you are a Seventh day Adventist? Or--are you now going to remove yourself being a fence sitter (lukewarm)? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 11, 2009 Moderators Posted July 11, 2009 Ok John317, I see where you wrote that traditions mean nothing to Paul and you agree, so I suppose you then would have to agree with jasd that it is self evident Sunday is the new sabbath. If this is true, then how come you are a Seventh day Adventist? Or--are you now going to remove yourself being a fence sitter (lukewarm)? Jesus Himself made it clear that there is a big difference between human traditions and the commandments of God. The 7th day Sabbath is not a tradition-- it is a commandment of God in the middle of the moral law. The venerable day of the sun is definitely not the new Sabbath. It is one of the 6 common work days and was never blessed or sanctified by God. The seventh day of the week was made holy by the Creator and that holy time has never been annulled by God. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 11, 2009 Moderators Posted July 11, 2009 ... what I posited re the original Sabbath being lost and now known only to Gd – initially derives from Hosea and Jeremiah – rather than from anything St Paul may or may not have said. No truth to this. Jesus Christ Himself, the one who created the Sabbath, rested on the Sabbath and gave evidence that He expected people would continue to rest on the Sabbath long after He died and ascended to heaven. The Bible states clearly, by inspiration of the Spirit of God, that Jesus' followers "rested on the Sabbath day," proving without question that they did indeed rest on the Sabbath. Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for the benefit of mankind, and therefore, we may be sure that something God made for our benefit would not be kept hidden from us. Besides, Hosea and Jeremiah are not telling us that God would hide the Sabbath so no one could know which day of the week it is. The astronomers know which day of the week it is by studying the movements of the stars. And we may be sure that there was not a time when all Jews suddenly woke up one morning and did not know what day of the week it was. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
jasd Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 >>Jesus Himself made it clear that there is a big difference between human traditions and the commandments of God.<< Indeed; however, where a “commandment” is absent – is it Biblical or moral to set apart and to sanctify – as to the Lord and not unto men? >>The 7th day Sabbath is not a tradition-- it is a commandment of God in the middle of the moral law.<< The “7th day Sabbath was a commandment of Gd; and yes, it was, per Hosea and Jeremiah, caused by Gd that it should cease from the COI – both Kingdoms. The words cannot have been more explicit. Moreover, their very calendar was lost. One cannot resurrect the seven-day cycle by following the practices of today’s Jews with a Saturday to Saturday keeping of a Sabbath, as they haven’t the correct recollections upon which to base their formulations for a Biblical calendar. Those who worship on Sundays, at least, acknowledge that they lack the Biblical construction to worship upon Sundays – do so as “unto the Lord”. They are no more or less correct to worship Gd upon a Sunday than you or I to worship upon a Saturday. >>The venerable day of the sun is definitely not the new Sabbath.<< That is a strawman. However, should that colour hubris be clung to should the phrase more properly have been phrased “a” new Sabbath – then what you charge would be a baseless assertion. The body of Jesus Christ, by and large, worships – as unto Gd – upon the “venerable day of the sun”, if you will. It is done to commemorate the redemptive sacrifice and risen Lord of mankind – far more a worthy memorialization than another creation upon planet Earth. >>It is one of the 6 common work days and was never blessed or sanctified by God.<< It may have been so in antiquity; however, it should be viewed differently, presently. And, yes, it was never written that it was “blessed or sanctified by Gd”. That said, can you positively state that that remains so today? If so, provide the direct statement from Gd attesting. >>The seventh day of the week was made holy by the Creator and that holy time has never been annulled by God.<< And, by which calendar? the moon cycle? the solar cycle? the 360-day year cycle? the 365 and ¼ day cycle? Were there any interstices? if so, how many? at what points? separate? congruent? ETC. >>...annulled by God.<< Like I said, known only to Gd. Quote
jasd Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 Quote: Quote:jasd ... what I posited re the original Sabbath being lost and now known only to Gd – initially derives from Hosea and Jeremiah – rather than from anything St Paul may or may not have said. >>No truth to this.<< Okay, provide the untruths in what I’ve posted in the above... >>Jesus Christ Himself, the one who created the Sabbath, rested on the Sabbath and gave evidence that He expected people would continue to rest on the Sabbath long after He died and ascended to heaven. The Bible states clearly, by inspiration of the Spirit of God, that Jesus' followers "rested on the Sabbath day," proving without question that they did indeed rest on the Sabbath.<< Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. Jesus Christ moved and had His being in the economy of the Jews – was St Paul inspired to write as he did? >>Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for the benefit of mankind, and therefore, we may be sure that something God made for our benefit would not be kept hidden from us.<< Did not the Ark of the Covenant with the Shekinah, benefit mankind? So, where is it? >>Besides, Hosea and Jeremiah are not telling us that God would hide the Sabbath so no one could know which day of the week it is.<< They, prophets transmitting Gd’s word, informs us that Gd would cause to cease – Israel’s feast days, her new moons, and her Sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts. That’s the calendar. It has not since been duplicated. The Sabbaths were attached by count to the “feasts days, the new moons, the Sabbaths, and all the solemn feasts”. When Gd removed these – the 7th day Sabbaths were lost. >>The astronomers know which day of the week it is by studying the movements of the stars.<< Yes, I’ve heard these legends; however, knowing and keeping days of the week cannot fulfill the exact prescriptions re the days of the OT calendar. >>And we may be sure that there was not a time when all Jews suddenly woke up one morning and did not know what day of the week it was.<< It is the calendar, not the days of the week as we currently number them. The best Jewish minds cannot reproduce Gd’s calendar; to wit, the present Hebrew calendar. Quote
Dr. Rich Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 Great posts John317, I knew you would answer that! thanks. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 12, 2009 Moderators Posted July 12, 2009 In all respect to JASD, I don't see much in his responses that require a serious answer. It seems to me that if those are the only or best objections raised, the Sabbath is on very strong ground. The Bible makes it very clear that the Sabbath was kept long after Jeremiah and Hosea (Neh. 13: 22), and it also makes plain that during the time of Jeremiah, the nation of Judea was punished and sent into Babylonian exile because they persisted in breaking the Sabbath. Compare Jeremiah 17: 27; 2 Chron. 7: 19; 36: 19; Daniel 1: 1, 2. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BobRyan Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 Sunday keeping Christians agree with Sabbath keeping Christians AND with Jews that Sunday is the "First day of the week" and that Sabbath is the "Seventh-day of the week". Impossible to miss. It is an agreed upon point not only by all Christians but even by the Jews themselves. Science also agrees that the Roman Calendar of Christ's day is "known" and that the 7th day of the week in Christ's day (pre-coss) is still KNOWN. The flat earth society may not agree with this - but that is hardly a compelling argument these days. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
jasd Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 >>...I don't see much in his responses that require a serious answer.<< (If it is not illusion, you might want to preserve your gravitas by avoiding triteness;) Ahhh John317, 317, so is it back to dependence upon clichés and rote again? So, taking the above, why did St Luke, who, of the Gospel authors, employed facts most specifically, find it necessary to emphasize, to temporize, or to qualify – the fact that Jesus Christ’s attendance in the synagogue on the Sabbath – was predicated upon – custom? “as His custom was” (...a totally superfluous literary appendage) Custom!? wha’s that? no obedience to law? no moral compunction? no, as it pleases the Father? just..., custom? If Gd had previously removed the Sabbaths of the COI for reasons of “pollution” – then it would have indeed obtained that for “custom” Jesus Christ attended Synagogue on the days celebrated in the then economy of the Jews. Apparently, it was for this that Jesus Christ advised, “My time is not yet come” – for He had yet to fulfill Gd’s calendar – not that of a self-righteous people asserting ‘the truth’. (why is there still so much confusion over the days of The Passion?) St Paul explicated NT use of the term “custom”. How is it that in the one instance you defend his validity as an Apostle of Jesus Christ – and in the other – ignore his relative statement? >>It seems to me that if those are the only or best objections raised, the Sabbath is on very strong ground.<< Indeed? I’ve seen arguments on these boards that the COI had the Sabbath ‘truth’ prior to the Egyptian enslavement; yet, it was for all practical purposes lost. The established fact is that it is entirely possible to lose track of the Sabbath – let alone that Gd caused its cessation. Moreover, does not Writ itself suggest a New Moon Sabbath collocation? >>The Bible makes it very clear that the Sabbath was kept long after Jeremiah and Hosea (Neh. 13: 22),<< Why should it not have been kept past the prophecies of Jeremiah and Hosea? Gd promised to send drought upon the COI should they not keep covenant and for – six long centuries – he withheld the drought. It was not until Elijah called upon the word of Gd re Leviticus 26 that Gd could no longer forbear – and drought came upon the COI. [/extemporaneously] >>...and it also makes plain that during the time of Jeremiah, the nation of Judea was punished and sent into Babylonian exile because they persisted in breaking the Sabbath.<< You make my argument. Anyway, perhaps, you might search for a few good resources relating to the Sabbaths preExilic and postExilic... Quote
jasd Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 >>Sunday keeping Christians agree with Sabbath keeping Christians AND with Jews that Sunday is the "First day of the week" and that Sabbath is the "Seventh-day of the week".<< Currently true; however, what’s that got to do with what I’ve posited? I took pains to distinguish between a Saturday to Saturday Sabbath-keeping and a Biblical cycle of sevens. Moreover, explicating a cycle of sevens is simple duck soup versus attempting to resurrect the OT calendar. As I’ve previously noted, the best Jewish minds failed; replicating an approximation at best. It is an unworthy endeavour to simply follow another’s best – ignoring what we might otherwise develop in conjunction with the HS. >>It is an agreed upon point not only by all Christians but even by the Jews themselves.<< The blind leading the blind, as it were? >>Science also agrees that the Roman Calendar of Christ's day is "known" and that the 7th day of the week in Christ's day (pre-coss) is still KNOWN.<< The premise was/is – the lost Hebrew calendar - not the eight-day week of the Romans, the ten-day week of the Chinese, not the Pre-Augustus Egyptian, nor the lack of one in classical Greece, etc... >>The flat earth society may not agree with this - but that is hardly a compelling argument these days.<< Flat-earthers notwithstanding, we simply substitute and adhere to hand-me-down theorems and postulations? ...puts me to mind of a lazy intellect. Prov 25:2 [it is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2009 Moderators Posted July 13, 2009 “as His custom was” (...a totally superfluous literary appendage) Custom!? wha’s that? no obedience to law? no moral compunction? no, as it pleases the Father? just..., custom? If Gd had previously removed the Sabbaths of the COI for reasons of “pollution” – then it would have indeed obtained that for “custom” Luke 4: 16 is simply saying that Jesus could almost always be found on Sabbath worshipping God in the synagogue. It is not attributing it to custom, but it is saying it was Jesus' habit to be at the synagogue on the Sabbath day. The word used is eiwtha, and it is also used in Acts 17: 2. Paul had formed the habit of going to the synagogue and reasoning with the people there out of the Scriptures and showing them that Jesus was the Messiah. The Apostle was accustomed to doing this, just as Jesus was accustomed to worshipping God at the synagogue every Sabbath. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2009 Moderators Posted July 13, 2009 >>JOHN3:17--...and it also makes plain that during the time of Jeremiah, the nation of Judea was punished and sent into Babylonian exile because they persisted in breaking the Sabbath.<< You make my argument. Do you believe that God would punish His people in this way for not keeping the Sabbath if (as you claim) God was going to do away with the Sabbath in a short time? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Richard Holbrook Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 jasd, It was his custom to keep all ten commandments. If ye love me, keep my commandments. Jhn 14:15 God gave the Commandments, or the Law if you will, and God never changes. For I am the LORD, I change not; Mal 3:6 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. Lk 16:17 Sunday worship is a man made doctrine. It was instituted by the catholic church, and came out of paganism. But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. Matt 15:9 So all sunday worship done, thinking it is a sabbath is done in vain. The burden of proof is not on us to show that the sabbath was not changed, but rather on you to show that it was. Which leaves you high and dry because there is no scripture supporting that. Quote
Richard Holbrook Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 quote from jasd: The body of Jesus Christ, by and large, worships – as unto Gd – upon the “venerable day of the sun”, if you will. Sorry to inform you friend, but they are not the body of Christ. They are the ones worshiping in vain. God's people have never been in the majority, and the Bible is plain about how to identify them. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev 12:17 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev 22:14 >>"It is done to commemorate the redemptive sacrifice and risen Lord of mankind"<< Nope, sorry, Not in the Bible. > >>"far more a worthy memorialization than another creation upon planet Earth."<< Here you're just stating your opinion on what you think ought to be the Sabbath, and you have every right to do so. But my faith is based on more than your opinion, as it should be. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1 Thess 5:21 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Rom 12:2 This brings me to my next point. If you are so convinced that sunday is the Sabbath, with no scripture to back it up, then why are you here at an SDA website? Could it be that you just enjoy a good argument? If this is the case then perhaps you can come up with something that isn't so easily refuted. Your opinion and speculation will not sway anyone. Give me a plain "Thus saith the Lord". Quote
jasd Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Welcome, Rich4truth Quote: Quote:jasd The body of Jesus Christ, by and large, worships – as unto Gd – upon the “venerable day of the sun”, if you will. >>Sorry to inform you friend, but they are not the body of Christ.<< You mean that only those who ‘keep’, however inadequately, a Saturday to Saturday ritual – consist the “Body of Jesus Christ”? How sad – that the suffering and sacrifice of the Redeemer resulted in such a paucity of efficacy. >>They are the ones worshiping in vain.<< Meaning? That their worshipful praise and prayers go unheeded by Gd? >>God's people have never been in the majority, and the Bible is plain about how to identify them.<< You mean, like tares and wheat? >>Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12<, You might want to verify the above statement by a study on how St John uses the terms entole and nomos. Tom Wetmore did a very good exposition upon the matter on another board recently. Do a search. Anyway, how do you define “the faith of Jesus”? >>And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev 12:17<< Who was/is “the woman”? >>Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev 22:14<< Just a small query for you: given that the redeemed inherit eternal life – why must they still eat of the tree of life? and who are outside the walls of the city? Quote: Quote:jasd It is done to commemorate the redemptive sacrifice and risen Lord of mankind >>Nope, sorry, Not in the Bible.<< No one said it was (anyway, is ‘universal’ vegetarianism taught in your Bible?). So, does that deny man his prerogatives – such as to do good? After all, the Sabbath was made for man and Jesus Christ demonstrated that that being so – He, as we, are Lords of the Sabbath – else we sin in spirit as well as letter re the Sabbaths. Anyway, as I’ve mentioned before Job sanctified..., and Job was called perfect by Gd. 1 Cor 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. Perhaps, we remnant ought to sanctify others – rather than being so derogatory concerning them, yes? Quote
jasd Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Quote: Quote:jasd ...far more a worthy memorialization than another creation upon planet Earth. >>Here you're just stating your opinion on what you think ought to be the Sabbath,<< No, I recognize that the Body of Jesus Christ, lacking the details of the original calendrical Sabbath – has set aside a day to worship both redemption and the Redemptor Gd. >>...and you have every right to do so.<< Exactly. Indeed, my argument from Holy Writ. >>But my faith is based on more than your opinion, as it should be.<< I, in no way, suggested that you act contrary to your conscience. >>Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1 Thess 5:21<< Well and good – should you desire to “prove all things” you might think to present the Biblical texts invalidating the words uttered by Gd through His prophets Hosea and Jeremiah; namely, those in the texts of Lamentations 2 and Hosea 2. >>Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15<< Indeed. Yet, might there still be 30,000-plus Protesting .orgs “rightly dividing”? >>And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Rom 12:2<< Indeed, though not of this world – yet, in it. >>This brings me to my next point. If you are so convinced that sunday is the Sabbath,<< I’ve also said that Saturday is the Sabbath for those whose conscience dictates. Neither a Saturday to Saturday nor a Sunday to Sunday Sabbath can be exposited from Writ – as obtaining today. What we do ought to be done “as unto the Lord”. >>...with no scripture to back it up, then why are you here at an SDA website?<< Is this a moue? a pout? a mewl? WHAT? Let me ask you – why not? That said, my mother was a devout SDA – an EGW sort of SDA! And for the time being this forum suffices as both my Sabbath school and church – though, as presently constructed – I would choose to be baptized elsewhere into the Body of Jesus Christ, as to avoid having to provide more than the Biblical “yea” or “nay”. I am neither Xtian nor SDA. I find it false to either prefix or suffix my name with the name of Xtian whilst so unworthy to bear that testimony. Jesus Christ’s name is too holy. Further, it is my humble opinion that one testifying of Gd with the cognate Christian, disservices Gd when disparaging others of the Body of Jesus Christ. We are adjured from judging another man’s servant, as it were. In the larger context – all judgement belongs to Jesus Christ. >>Could it be that you just enjoy a good argument?<< I am intrigued by the abstract. >>If this is the case then perhaps you can come up with something that isn't so easily refuted.<< Says you. >>Your opinion and speculation will not sway anyone. Give me a plain "Thus saith the Lord".<< Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts. THAT is the calendar! That is as plain a “Thus saith the Lord” – as you will find anywhere else in Holy Writ. It is yours to decide whether the text must be understood as read, or simply to be, as the last parrot on the Orinoco. "...in early times the weekly sabbath was adjusted to COINCIDE with major festivals, or even with new moons (see Leviticus 23). After the exile, the seventh-day sabbath was more strictly [?] observed and BECAME INDEPENDENT of the lunisolar calendar. So the orthodox Jews had problems over the relationship of the sabbaths and festivals." --Eerdmans Handbook to the Bible, Mk 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 14, 2009 Moderators Posted July 14, 2009 Study those verses some more. You will find it has nothing to do with God's hiding a calender or the Sabbath from the Jews. Compare Amos 8: 10; Hosea 3: 4; Jeremiah 7: 34; Isaiah 1: 14; Isaiah 16: 6; Isaiah 66: 23; 56: 1-7; 58: 12-14. Jesus clearly taught that the Sabbath would be in existence long after His ascension. Matt. 24: 20. And about 60 AD, the Holy Spirit inspired the physician Luke to write that the followers of Christ rested on "the Sabbath according to the commandment." This statement clearly says that the followers of Christ were keeping the Sabbath as the commandment teaches. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
jasd Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 Quote: Quote:jasd Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts. THAT is the calendar! That is as plain a “Thus saith the Lord” – as you will find anywhere else in Holy Writ. It is yours to decide whether the text must be understood as read, or simply to be, as >>Study those verses some more. You will find it has nothing to do with God's hiding a calender or the Sabbath from the Jews. Compare<< [ed.jasd] Umm, John317, Hosea prophesied to the Northern Kingdom. >>Amos 8: 10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only [son], and the end thereof as a bitter day.<< I think you’ll find that Amos preceded Hosea’s prophecies by some few years. >>Hosea 3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and [without] teraphim:<< What? >>Jeremiah 7:34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.<< What? >>Isaiah 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them].<< The above is Isaiah, a contemporary of Hosea, prophesying to the Southern Kingdom Judah – near paralleling Jeremiah’s prophecies. >>Isaiah 16:6 We have heard of the pride of Moab; [he is] very proud: [even] of his haughtiness, and his pride, and his wrath: [but] his lies [shall] not [be] so.<< What? (John317, where are you getting these texts?) >>Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. Indeed, following the events of verse 22, to wit: “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, ...” In the meantime the original OT seventh-day Sabbaths of the Lord Gd are known only to Him. >>56: 1-7 that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, (verse2) – the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, (verse4) – every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, (verse6)<< I think you’ll find that Isaiah prophesied approximately a century before the Babylonian Captivity. Isaiah 56 seems to be addressing an earlier time in the chronology of the Southern Kingdom. >>58: 12-14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, (verse 13)<< Jeremiah dates from the prophesying of Isaiah by approximately three quarters of a century... Isaiah speaks from an earlier time... >>Jesus clearly taught that the Sabbath would be in existence long after His ascension. Matt. 24: 20.<< Taking all of the texts you’ve referenced in the above – your immediately above statement holds true only for the time after that noted in Isaiah 66:22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, ...” >>And about 60 AD, the Holy Spirit inspired the physician Luke to write that the followers of Christ rested on "the Sabbath according to the commandment." This statement clearly says that the followers of Christ were keeping the Sabbath as the commandment teaches.<< I take it that you’re referring to Luke 23:56, yes? Let’s look at it...: Lu 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. Some what says that that day being referred to in Luke 23:56 is the 15th day of Abib, in which they were to do no servile work; that is, they were to rest. In this passage it is posited to have been a Thursday. >>You will find it has nothing to do with God's hiding a calender...<< Isaiah 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: I’d say that Isaiah portrays Gd as hiding His eyes – removing the specifics of a calendar should have proved easy. erratum: ...am too tired to rework the following just now; will do so later. "your immediately above statement holds true only for the time after that noted in Isaiah 66:22" Quote
Richard Holbrook Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 In Isa 1:15 God is simply saying he can't bear to even look at them because of their sins. He also says he won't hear their prayers It dosn't say anything about hiding a calender. He's covering his eyes, not theirs. Who did this to you? And how come you can't spell the word God? Don't you think it's disrespectful to shorten it to Gd? Quote
jasd Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 >>He's covering his eyes, not theirs.<< Umm, Rich4truth, try reading the above in its entirety, specifically, with the following following the preceding: "removing the specifics of a calendar should have proved easy." >>Who did this to you? And how come you can't spell the word God?<< Someone neglected your education? [/sigh] Civility, good person, civility. >>Don't you think it's disrespectful to shorten it to Gd?<< Why should that be? Is it disrespectful that Gd should be written THWH in the OT? Quote
Richard Holbrook Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 Should have proved easy? So! What does that prove? Everything's easy for God, It dosn't say he did that. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 14, 2009 Moderators Posted July 14, 2009 >>Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. Indeed, following the events of verse 22, to wit: “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, ...” In the meantime the original OT seventh-day Sabbaths of the Lord Gd are known only to Him. There's absolutely no evidence of this at all. It is merely your speculation and has no basis in history or in anything else. The weekly cycle has never been lost. As has been said many times before, the Sabbath was made for mankind's benefit and it therefore makes utterly no sense for God to keep mankind from knowing which day is the Sabbath. Besides, the NT is replete with proof that the Sabbath is well known. You're completely misunderstanding Hosea 2: 11 in which God says that He will "cause all" of Israel's "mirth to cease... Her Sabbaths-- all her appointed feasts." He is not saying He will make them forget which day of the week it is. He is saying that he will punish them for using the Sabbath and other holy days in false worship. See Matthew Henry's comments: 1. God will take away the occasions of their sacred mirth— their feast-days, their new moons, their sabbaths, and all their solemn feasts. These God instituted to be observed in a religious manner, and they were to be observed with rejoicing; and, it seems, though they had departed from the pure worship of God, yet they kept up the observance of these, not at God’s temple at Jerusalem, for they had long since forsaken that, but probably at Dan and Bethel, where the calves were, or in some other places of meeting that they had. They observed them, not for the honour of God, nor with any true devotion towards him, but only because they were times of mirth and feasting, music and dancing, and meeting of friends, received by tradition from their fathers. Thus, when they had lost the power of godliness, and denied that, yet, for the pleasing of a vain and carnal mind, they kept up the form of it; and by this means their new-moons and their sabbaths became an iniquity which God could not away with, Isa. 1:13. Now observe, (1.) God calls them their new-moons and their sabbaths, not his (he disowns them), but theirs. (2.) He will cause them to cease. Note, When men by their sins have caused the life and substance of ordinances to cease it is just with God by his judgments to cause the remaining show and shadow of them to cease. 2. He will take away the supports of their carnal mind. They loved the new-moons and the sabbaths only for the sake of the good cheer that was stirring then, not for the sake of any religious exercises then performed; these they had dropped long ago; and now God will take away their provisions for these solemnities (v. 12): I will destroy her vines and her fig-trees. Note, If men destroy God’s words and ordinances, by which he should be honoured on their feast-days, it is just with him to destroy their vines and fig-trees, with which they regale themselves. While they took the pleasure of these, they gave their lovers the praise of them: "These are my rewards which my lovers have given me; I may thank my stars for these, and my worship of them; I may thank my neighbours for these, and my alliance with them.’’ And therefore God will destroy them, will wither them with a blast, or bring in a foreign enemy that shall lay the country waste, so that their vineyards shall become a forest; the enclosures shall be thrown down, as is usual in war; all shall be laid in common, so that the beasts of the field shall eat their grapes and their figs. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Richard Holbrook Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 Quite a stretch. He's covering his eyes, not theirs. You're reading something that just isn't there. Quote
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