Sunday--is it the new SABBATH???

[Richard Holbrook]

That's right John!!

[jasd]

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Quote:jasd

All of the Ten Commandments with the exception of the 4th are reiterated in the NT.

>>Are you positive of that? Show exact quotes in the NT of the first three commandments of the moral law.<< [ed.jasd]

Google it.

Perhaps “reiterated” puts too fine a point upon my statement; howsabout, reaffirmed? Otherwise, I can’t see how you might have expected a verbatim quote from either the NT or myself.

>>Why would God need to repeat them...<<

First, who suggested that Gd needs to do this or that? Second, are you attempting to make a brief from New Testamental ‘silence’ [of the matter]?

>>...in order for you or anyone else to obey them?<<

You and I are parties to a New Testament. It behooves us to be apprised of its structure, as well as what led to its development. Lacking this, we may (as do some .orgs) tend to sectual insularity

>>To require this of God would be to show Him disrespect and to be disobedient to Him.<<

Nothing is “required” of Gd. It is He who informs us through His prophets Hosea and Jeremiah that it was He – who removed the OT calendar. One, understanding that, respects and obeys Him; whereas, it is simple doctrinal rote, which disrespects...

The good steward brings forth the new and the old from his Master’s storehouse.

>>The Sabbath commandment is shown to be valid after the death of Christ .<<

Writ shows in the NT that it was practiced best as able in the Jewish economy. Those having their moving and being within that economy obliged them that they...

“Render therefor to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; ...”

(perhaps that is why Writ advises us that Jesus Christ, as was His custom, and St Paul, as was his manner – went to Synagogue on the Sabbaths)

>>About 30 years after Christ's ascension to heaven, Luke was inspired by the Holy Spirit to point out that the women who followed Jesus "rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment."<<

I’ve already addressed that as being the First Sabbath of the Days of Unleavened Bread, in which no servile word was to be performed.

>>In Matt. 24: 20, Jesus also spoke of the Sabbath being kept in the distant future, giving no indication that it was to be abolished.<<

Two things: The Shema Yisrael and the Sabbaths have been and are the central pillars of the Jewish economy. Jesus Christ addressed, singularly, that which would have been of utmost concern (wry wit) to the Jew. Second, no one is publishing that the Seventh-day Sabbath was abolished; I am suggesting instead that, given the directed and unequivocal prophecies of Hosea and Jeremiah, it was removed to prevent its further pollution. That fact is Gd-breathed, and should be easily recognized by the good steward, if one will.

>>If the Sabbath was going to be abolished, it would have needed to be abolished BEFORE the death of Christ, not afterwards.<<

In fact, it was ‘removed’ together with the OT calendar in OT times.

>>There is no changing or adding to a covenant after it has been ratified, and the New Covenant was ratified by the shedding of Christ's blood.<<

Who is suggesting otherwise? I suggest – no, more than that, I purport and/or assert by Writ, that Hosea and Jeremiah created and left a lacuna between OT and NT epistemology that was appropriately corrected with a thing made holy and sanctified – as unto the Lord; as in dedicated..., no Covenant miscalculation involved.

Nothing wrong with that, is there?

[Ted Oplinger]

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>>Even as Judah began her languish in exile. The Sabbath wasn't hidden from her, nor taken from her. It would belong to the remnant returning to God from exile.<<

One would think so, wouldn’t one? However, there yet remains the preCaptivity prophecy of Jeremiah...

Lam 2:6 ...the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion,

One, forgetting the solemn feasts and sabbaths, is obliged to then rely upon a calendar that was Babylonish in origin, in terminology, calculation, and function.

Your back and forth really doesn't add much weight to your argument. You read too much into that one small verse.

First, there is no time when God has dismissed any part of the rest of the 10 Commandments. As Jesus referenced the origin of the Sabbath as being from Creation, and not Moses, using a reference that clearly points to ceremonial sabbaths weakens your position that much more.

There are other perspectives as to what the forgetting of the solemn feasts and sabbaths in Zion means.

Considering your verse alone: Lamentations 2:6 is wrapping the whole ceremonial Law together (solemn feasts and sabbaths - plural - making the usage to affect the Sabbath within the Law of God somewhat dubious to begin with...now, you must also throw out a very important solemn feast (aka, Passover).

That Jesus should have known the Passover was thrown out by God should then be clear, given His numerous statements in John's Gospel of His Father being in Him to teach and to do His works.

Yet, there is Jesus, on the night before He was to be crucified, celebrating the Passover.

Worse yet, He was involved in the Passover celebrations since He was 12. Hence, He was setting a false example??? By engaging before His disciples false worship already dismissed by His own Word through Jeremiah?

You really don't expect me to believe that, do you?

The better explanation to offer would be that the Babylonian exile de-populated the area, and the Temple was destroyed - causing the remaining people to be unable to engage in worship according to the Scriptures. The rites, feasts, and Sabbaths would remain unentered for the duration of that time. After 70 years, they would be forgotten by the newer generations, until the Jews came back.

A check with Artaxerxes' decree to rebuild both Jerusalem and the Temple carries with it the command to teach from the Scriptures and govern according to the Laws therein. Ezra 7:25, 26.

As both the exile and return are God-directed, I think it good faith to mean that as God giving back to His people the freedom to engage in the solemn feasts and the sabbaths - and to be governed by the 10 Commandment Law - including the Sabbath.

It was not the first time God forbade His people from engaging in the Passover or other rites. Interestingly, the Israelites did not receive circumcision during their 40 years in the wilderness, until God commanded Joshua to circumcise the people again (Joshua 5:2-7). Although they were the people of the Covenant, they did not participate in that Covenant for 40 years.

Passover was restricted from Israel at times of sin.

Then there was the voluntary leaving of all things God during the various reigns of the kings from Mannasseh all the way to Josiah - who by the time he ascended the throne, the Book of the Law was lost and forgotten. During his reign, Judah celebrated the Passover for the first time in generations.

Between these points, the argument that Lamentations 2:6 is a clean wipe of all things commandment-sabbath and ceremonial just doesn't hold merit with me. There are plenty of instances where God has withheld His things from His people, and gave them back again when they repented and walked with Him in faith.

And that reference? Quite a familiar one, actually, but it gives weight to my argument because of who wrote and when:

Ezekiel 20:12, 20.

God gave His people His Sabbath (notice the ownership by God) to be a sign between Himself and His people. Verse 12 is past tense, so you might quibble about that one. However, verse 20 is future - meaning God intended for this to be true in the future from Ezekiel's time.

When and where did Ezekiel give this message to the Jews? In Babylon, during the Babylonian exile. Daniel and Ezekiel were contemporaries. If God through Jeremiah was dismissing the Sabbath, here is Ezekiel putting it right back into effect. Or is God contradicting Himself?

I remain convinced the Sabbath of the Commandment Law is on a very solid foundation.

Food for thought...

[Richard Holbrook]

Amen Brother

[John317]

Perhaps “reiterated” puts too fine a point upon my statement; howsabout, reaffirmed? Otherwise, I can’t see how you might have expected a verbatim quote from either the NT or myself.

Well, the weekly Sabbath is certainly reaffirmed. Consider the fact that there is more in the NT about the Sabbath than there is about almost any other subject, including hell, etc.

Can you explain why God would have so much written about the Sabbath 30+ years after the Sabbath supposedly (according to some) ceased to exist?

If one verse reaffirms the other part of the moral law, why wouldn't dozens of lines reaffirm the Sabbath? There is nothing negative about the Sabbath from the viewpoint of Christ and God in the NT. Look at Hebrews 4, for instance. It is a very positive association, and this would have been about the year 60 AD. It clearly implies that Christians were keeping the weekly Sabbath.

>>Why would God need to repeat them...<<

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JASD-- First, who suggested that Gd needs to do this or that?

You suggest it when you say you won't obey the Sabbath because it is not repeated in the NT. At least that is what I hear you saying. Perhaps I am wrong. I hope so.

[jasd]

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Are you positive of that? Show exact quotes in the NT of the first three commandments of the moral law. [ed.jasd]

Quote:jasd

Google it.

I was amiss to have responded to a terse imperative with an equally short reply. Following are three examples of the first three Commandments being reaffirmed in the NT:

First Commandment: Matt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Second Commandment: 1 Jn 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Third Commandment: 1 Tim 6:1 ... the name of God and [his] doctrine be not blasphemed.

[olger]

In answer to the thread title: "Why no. Not at all."

regards,

g

[John317]

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Are you positive of that? Show exact quotes in the NT of the first three commandments of the moral law. [ed.jasd]

Quote:jasd

Google it.

I was amiss to have responded to a terse imperative with an equally short reply. Following are three examples of the first three Commandments being reaffirmed in the NT:

First Commandment: Matt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Exodus 20: 3--

You shall have no other gods before me.

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Second Commandment: 1 Jn 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Exodus 20: 3--

You shall not make for yourselves an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath...

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Third Commandment: 1 Tim 6:1 ... the name of God and [his] doctrine be not blasphemed.

Exodus 2: 4--

You must not misuse the name of the Lord your God....

Notice that the above commandments are not repeated in the same language as they are given in the Ten Commandments.

The Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20: 8 says that we are to remember to keep the Sabbath day holy.

Compare the following verses regarding the Sabbath in the New Testament, which was written about 30 years after the death and resurrection of Christ. They show that God still wants believers to remember to keep the Sabbath:

Mark 2: 27-- "The Sabbath was made for people, not people for the Sabbath."

[The above verse means that the Sabbath was made for the benefit of humans. In other words, it is a gift from God to the human family. I find it impossible to believe that what Christ said He made as a benefit for people before sin would be taken away from people after sin.]

Hebrews 4: 4, 9--

For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "On the seventh day God rested from all his work.".... There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God."

Matt. 12: 12--

Jesus said, "It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day." (Luke 6: 9)

[This verse clearly means that the Sabbath is part of God's law.]

Luke 23: 56--

"They [Christ's followers] rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment."

[About 30 years after Christ, the Holy Spirit inspired Luke to write that Christ's followers were careful to keep the Sabbath commandment, and it still refers to the Sabbath as "the Sabbath," not the Jews' Sabbath or the day that used to be considered the Sabbath. Therefore in circa 60 AD, it is still simply "the Sabbath according to the commandment," with no indication that it is a thing of the past.]

Luke 4: 16--

"He [Jesus] went to Nazareth where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was His custom." (Compare 1 John 2: 5)

["Custom" does not mean it is merely tradition, as some suppose, but it is saying that Jesus' habit was to be in the synagogue on the Sabbath worshipping God. That is where you could expect to find Jesus on the seventh day of the week. He obeyed the Sabbath commandment. No wonder His followers did as well.]

[jasd]

>>Your back and forth really doesn't add much weight to your argument.<<

That’s okay, I’m aware of the limitations re the matter – on both sides.

>>You read too much into that one small verse.<<

I wouldn’t go there, as the .Org has done more with the one verse Daniel 8:14 than imaginable (no pun intended), making it, as it were, a cottage industry. Additionally, haven’t they make it a ‘Fundamental’? Anyway,

notice the likeness between the prophetic words of Hosea to the Northern Kingdom, “cause to cease” and the words of Lamentations to the Southern Kingdom, “caused ... to be forgotten...”. Is the Northern Kingdom still keeping an Old Testament calendar’s Seventh-day Sabbath, for example? Indeed not, by and large. On the face of it, the prophecy of Hosea was fulfilled; why ought one expect that Jeremiah's prophecy to the Southern Kingdom failed - allowing a continuance - where none existed re the Northern Kingdom. Like prophecies, like fulfillments.

Holy Writ fails to provide us with any text advising us that the Southern Kingdom, after its seventy-years Captivity, remembered its “forgotten” OT calendar et voilà! the words of Lamentations were rendered moot. It is my assertion that Writ does not

sustain that purport.

>>First, there is no time when God has dismissed any part of the rest of the 10 Commandments.<<

That is simply a wishful assertion, if I might say.

>>As Jesus referenced the origin of the Sabbath as being from Creation, and not Moses, using a reference that clearly points to ceremonial sabbaths weakens your position that much more.<< [ed.jasd]

Gd also gave man access to the Tree of Life, yes? So, where is it now? Let’s see, Ark/Ark, Shiloh, Gd’s eyes, Tree of Life, and the 7th-day Sabbath – have all been removed or otherwise hidden... Anyway,

per the above quote, only “ceremonial Sabbaths”? Umm, wouldn’t those have been the “solemn feasts” of Lamentations 2:6? Besides, Leviticus 23 includes the seventh-day Sabbaths together with the “ceremonial” Sabbaths. That said, there still remains the “solemn feasts”, and additionally, the “Sabbaths” of verse 6 – leaving the reader with a not-to-be-missed, ‘all points covered’ – redundancy, as it were.

>>There are other perspectives as to what the forgetting of the solemn feasts and sabbaths in Zion means.

Considering your verse alone: Lamentations 2:6 is wrapping the whole ceremonial Law together (solemn feasts and sabbaths - plural - making the usage to affect the Sabbath within the Law of God somewhat dubious to begin with...<<

I draw your attention to my above comments re Leviticus 23.

>>Yet, there is Jesus, on the night before He was to be crucified, celebrating the Passover.<<

According to Deuteronomy 16:16 Jews were required to assemble three times a year in the place of Gd’s choosing: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, Feast of Weeks, and at Succoth. In that the Jewish men were already assembled to celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bred – by default they assembled also for Pasch as well. We are able to find almost nothing of Jesus Christ going to Jerusalem to celebrate the required Feasts per the commandment of Deuteronomy. Why not? That said, remember the words of Jesus Christ the night before His crucifixion, to wit:

Lu 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Why THAT Pasch!? and none preceding... I submit that His hour had come, that particular time when Gd’s calendar; the sun, the moon, the stars, the seasons; and the Jewish keeping of the Spring Feasts coincided. (As I previously noted with John 317 – even a broken clock is right twice a day) Even at that,

during the time of Jesus Christ, the keeping of the Feasts had devolved to different days kept by different sects; and Jesus Christ, though calling His supper the Pasch, kept it heedless of all its ritual celebration, as required by Torah. Other than that,

Gd recognized the limitations re the Jew’s recollection of the OT calendar and accepted their best efforts. He accepted Temple worship – with all evidence of the Holy of Holies sans the Ark of the Covenant. Ritual proceeded as though the Ark had been returned and ensconced beyond the veil of the Second Temple.

[jasd]

>>Worse yet, He was involved in the Passover celebrations since He was 12.<<

He was a minor answerable to His parents; otherwise, read above.

>>Hence, He was setting a false example???<<

I think Writ totally omits (or cannot provide) texts substantiating Jesus Christ as having obeyed the requirements of Deuteronomy 16:16?

>>By engaging before His disciples false worship already dismissed by His own Word through Jeremiah?<<

Without appeal to any other argument, remember that it was “custom” that took Jesus Christ to Synagogue that Sabbath when He stood up to read, as it was “after his manner” that constrained St Paul likewise when teaching – where rather, more to be expected in Writ, there ought to have been a “As was/is written...”, or “Thou shalt...”

>>You really don't expect me to believe that, do you?<<

Sheesh, Gd forbid that I should proselytize you!

>>The better explanation to offer would be that the Babylonian exile de-populated the area, and the Temple was destroyed - causing the remaining people to be unable to engage in worship according to the Scriptures.<<

“Depopulation”, of itself would not have nullified the prophecy “caused ... to be forgotten”.

>>The rites, feasts, and Sabbaths would remain unentered for the duration of that time. After 70 years, they would be forgotten by the newer generations, until the Jews came back.<<

Then we might expect that there would have been found – somewhere in the annals of events re the Jews – that one small text or reference in Writ informing us that what Gd had “caused ... to be forgotten” was remedied by being brought back to mind.

>>As both the exile and return are God-directed, I think it good faith to mean that as God giving back to His people the freedom to engage in the solemn feasts and the sabbaths - and to be governed by the 10 Commandment Law - including the Sabbath.<<

He didn’t even give back to the postExilic – the throne.

>>Passover was restricted from Israel at times of sin.

Then there was the voluntary leaving of all things God during the various reigns of the kings from Mannasseh all the way to Josiah - who by the time he ascended the throne, the Book of the Law was lost and forgotten. During his reign, Judah celebrated the Passover for the first time in generations.<<

Yet they remain anecdotal and without a direct “and the Lord caused [...] because He despised [...] He hath fulfilled His word that He had commanded in the days of old” attaching; moreover, all events mentioned in the above occurred much priorily Gd’s declamations in Hosea and in Lamentations.

>>Between these points, the argument that Lamentations 2:6 is a clean wipe of all things commandment-sabbath and ceremonial just doesn't hold merit with me.<<

Evidently.

>>There are plenty of instances where God has withheld His things from His people, and gave them back again when they repented and walked with Him in faith.<<

However that may be, the events you draw upon occurred much earlier in the histories of the people and do not invalidate the texts of Hosea and Lamentations.

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Quote:Ted Oplinger

And that reference? Quite a familiar one, actually, but it gives weight to my argument because of who wrote and when:

Ezekiel 20:12, 20.

God gave His people His Sabbath (notice the ownership by God) to be a sign between Himself and His people. Verse 12 is past tense, so you might quibble about that one. However, verse 20 is future - meaning God intended for this to be true in the future from Ezekiel's time.

When and where did Ezekiel give this message to the Jews? In Babylon, during the Babylonian exile. Daniel and Ezekiel were contemporaries. If God through Jeremiah was dismissing the Sabbath, here is Ezekiel putting it right back into effect. Or is God contradicting Himself? [ed.jasd]

No, not dismissing; rather Gd removed it “that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen”.

It is my understanding that Ezekiel 20 is written retrospectively, and yes, that technique allows for the tenses you've noted. That said, and without knowledge of how far back into the histories of his people Ezekiel revisits – we might expect that the recapitulation of Ezekiel 20 does not immediately bear upon Hosea and Lamentations.

>>I remain convinced the Sabbath of the Commandment Law is on a very solid foundation.<<

...as one's conscience dictates.

[jasd]

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Perhaps “reiterated” puts too fine a point upon my statement; howsabout, reaffirmed? Otherwise, I can’t see how you might have expected a verbatim quote from either the NT or myself.

>>Well, the weekly Sabbath is certainly reaffirmed.<<

reaffirm

tr.v. To affirm or assert again.

verb to state again

>>Consider the fact that there is more in the NT about the Sabbath than there is about almost any other subject, including hell, etc.<<

And Jesus Christ spoke to the topic money more than to any other.

>>Can you explain why God would have so much written about the Sabbath 30+ years after the Sabbath supposedly (according to some) ceased to exist?<<

Not “ceased to exist”; rather removed. However, that stated, “ceased to exist” is markedly different from ‘practice’.

>>If one verse reaffirms the other part of the moral law, why wouldn't dozens of lines reaffirm the Sabbath?<<

As I before stated: with the exception of the 4th, all nine other commandments of the Decalogue are reaffirmed in the New Testament.

>>There is nothing negative about the Sabbath from the viewpoint of Christ and God in the NT.<<

How would that conflict with what I’ve purported re the prophecies of Hosea and Jeremiah?

>>Look at Hebrews 4, for instance. It is a very positive association, and this would have been about the year 60 AD. It clearly implies that Christians were keeping the weekly Sabbath.<<

Are you attempting to make the association between Gd’s rest – and the rest of the Sinaitic Covenant?

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Why would God need to repeat them...

Quote:jasd

First, who suggested that Gd needs to do this or that?

>>You suggest it when you say you won't obey the Sabbath...<<

I keep the Sabbath of my mother’s faith as bequeathed – as well as many of more rigorous persuasions within the .Org.

>>...because it is not repeated in the NT.<<

Because both Hosea and Jeremiah prophesied negatively re the matter of the Sabbaths and because it is not “repeated in the NT” – it is error on my, or any other’s part to speak ill of those who keep that ‘other day’ unto the Lord – for conscience’s sake.

>>At least that is what I hear you saying. Perhaps I am wrong. I hope so.<<

It would not matter to Gd should you be wrong in your assessment re myself.

[John317]

Evidence?

Compare the two subjects in the Topical Bible. Check out "Sabbath" and "money" etc.

How many verses in the NT are devoted to the Sabbath and how many to "money"?

My point is that the subject of the Sabbath-- and not merely of a Sabbath of history-- is of great importance in the NT Scriptures. It doesn't make sense that the Sabbath would be written about to that degree at that time if the Sabbath no longer existed and therefore was no longer relevant.

[John317]

Then why do the words and life of Jesus assume that the Sabbath was known and kept and that it would continue to exist, be known & kept?

There is absolutely nothing in His teachings or in His practice that hints that the Sabbath was "removed."

[Richard Holbrook]

It would be ludicrous to even talk about the old done away with sabbath 60-70 years after it was changed or done away with. Unless they were talking specifically about the change, and they weren't doing that.

[wayfinder]

The Seventh-day Sabbath was created on the seventh day of creation, it is as permanent as all of God's creation, which is all there is. The distinction of the people of God, which are His kingdom, is that they keep the covenant. This covenant of the kingdom consists of ten commands, of which the fourth command is to remember the Seventh-day to keep it holy. This covenant was kept in a container called the Ark of the Covenant which resided in the Most Holy Place of the temple. We know that things on earth are finite and fading, but things in heaven where God dwells are eternal.

Re 11:19

And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

God is in heaven, God's temple is in heaven the ark of His covenant is in the temple in heaven, therefore the Ten Commandments are in heaven and are eternal. The other fact is that this event (seventh trumpet) is yet future. It is fitting that the covenant of the kingdom of God would be seen, by all, at the triumph of God's kingdom.

[John317]

I agree. And in fact, according to the historians, Socrates and Sozoman, most Christians throughout the world -- except for Rome and Alexandria--continued to keep the Sabbath up to the fifth century. Clearly this would not have been the case if Christ had abolished the Sabbath.

[John317]

The Seventh-day Sabbath was created on the seventh day of creation, it is as permanent as all of God's creation, which is all there is. ....

God is in heaven, God's temple is in heaven the ark of His covenant is in the temple in heaven, therefore the Ten Commandments are in heaven and are eternal.

We're in agreement. What do you think of the quote by Ellen White in EW 32, 33 concerning the commandments of God which she saw?

[wayfinder]

It is an interesting description and I would not doubt that 1-4 are on the first tablet and 6-10 on the second.

[Woody]

What about on the back side?

[jasd]

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Exodus 20: 3--

You shall have no other gods before me.

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Second Commandment: 1 Jn 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

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Quote:John317

Exodus 20: 3--

You shall not make for yourselves an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath...

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Quote:jasd

Third Commandment: 1 Tim 6:1 ... the name of God and [his] doctrine be not blasphemed.

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Exodus 2: 4--

You must not misuse the name of the Lord your God....

>>Notice that the above commandments are not repeated in the same language as they are given in the Ten Commandments.<<

No, they are not reiterated. They are reaffirmed. That said,

“Notice that the above commandments” are not repeated as they are in other translations. What point are you attempting?

>>The Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20: 8 says that we are to remember to keep the Sabbath day holy.<<

That is so; however, weren’t those stones broken? and doesn’t Deuteronomy 5:13-15 differ in language from Exodus 20:8?

>>Compare the following verses regarding the Sabbath in the New Testament, which was written about 30 years after the death and resurrection of Christ. They show that God still wants believers to remember to keep the Sabbath:<<

First, though you may be right in what you’ve inferred from those “verses” re the occasions of the NT Sabbath – it seems very difficult to do so for the fact that the verses proffered are narratives by character and cannot lend themselves to any blanket assertion.

Check the exhortative or imperative voice in the nine commandments I reference – as opposed to that of the 4th... following:

5th commandment: Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother;

6th commandment: Rom 13:9 ...Thou shalt not kill,

7th commandment: Lu 18:20 ...Do not commit adultery,

8th commandment: Mk 10:19 ...Do not steal,

9th Commandment: Matt 19:18 ...Thou shalt not bear false witness,

10th Commandment: Rom 7:7 ... Thou shalt not covet.

>>Mark 2: 27-- "The Sabbath was made for people, not people for the Sabbath."

[The above verse means that the Sabbath was made for the benefit of humans. In other words, it is a gift from God to the human family. I find it impossible to believe that what Christ said He made as a benefit for people before sin would be taken away from people after sin.]<<

And, if Jesus Christ was using the title Son of Man as literal rather than Messianic, He informs us that both He, as well as we the individual – are also Lords of that day, ‘the Sabbath’.

>>Hebrews 4: 4, 9--

For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "On the seventh day God rested from all his work.".... There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God."<<

An unflattering conjunction.

>>Matt. 12: 12--

Jesus said, "It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day." (Luke 6: 9)

[This verse clearly means that the Sabbath is part of God's law.]<<

Umm, at the risk of repeating myself, umm, “Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.” (Rom 13:7)

“custom to whom custom” would encompass the economy of the Jews.

>>Luke 23: 56--

"They [Christ's followers] rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment."

[About 30 years after Christ, the Holy Spirit inspired Luke to write that Christ's followers were careful to keep the Sabbath commandment, and it still refers to the Sabbath as "the Sabbath," not the Jews' Sabbath or the day that used to be considered the Sabbath. Therefore in circa 60 AD, it is still simply "the Sabbath according to the commandment," with no indication that it is a thing of the past.]<<

Repeating myself: Lu 23:56 refers to the first day – of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Were it other than that year the Spring Feasts and Sabbaths coincided with Gd’s OT calendar (Jesus Christ’s “hour” had come”) – even then, the voice emanating from within the Jewish economy would not have had to qualify with adjectives or modifiers.

>>Luke 4: 16--

"He [Jesus] went to Nazareth where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was His custom." (Compare 1 John 2: 5)

["Custom" does not mean it is merely tradition, as some suppose, but it is saying that Jesus' habit was to be in the synagogue on the Sabbath worshipping God. That is where you could expect to find Jesus on the seventh day of the week. He obeyed the Sabbath commandment. No wonder His followers did as well.]<<

Why then, should Jesus Christ not have utilized His Father’s house in which to worship, rather than the artificial creation of the Babylonian exile?

[wayfinder]

Redwood,

Front and backside, no room for adding any more!

[Woody]

Praise God.

[Dr. Rich]

but Wayfinder, the sabbath was done away with at the cross[ right?

[jasd]

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Consider the fact that there is more in the NT about the Sabbath than there is about almost any other subject, including hell, etc.

Quote:jasd

And Jesus Christ spoke to the topic money more than to any other.

>>Evidence?<<

Sorry, my facts are in my crashed ‘puter. I intend to retrieve and duplicate my Word programs. Until I am able to do that – I submit for your consumption that which I’ve only now Googled – for what it’s worth:

“It is worth noting that money is such an important topic in the Bible that it is the main subject of nearly half of the parables Jesus told. In addition, one in every seven verses in the New Testament deals with this topic. The Bible offers 500 verses on prayer, fewer than 500 verses on faith, and more than 2,000 verses on money.

In fact, 15 percent of everything Jesus ever taught was on the topic of money and possessions-more than His teachings on heaven and hell combined.”

I took the above from crosswalk.com, a recommendable Bible Studies site.

>>Compare the two subjects in the Topical Bible. Check out "Sabbath" and "money" etc.<<

The Sabbath is Sabbath whilst “money” is also wealth, buy, sell, mammon, etc.

>>How many verses in the NT are devoted to the Sabbath and how many to "money"?<<

Per comparison with the above ‘pull’ from crosswalk.com: Sabbath – threescore times.

>>My point is that the subject of the Sabbath-- and not merely of a Sabbath of history-- is of great importance in the NT Scriptures. It doesn't make sense that the Sabbath would be written about to that degree at that time if the Sabbath no longer existed and therefore was no longer relevant.<<

But John317, it is self-evident that the Jews practiced observance of their Sabbath and, it was so relevant to them – that they died for that relevance.

[jasd]

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Quote:John317

Can you explain why God would have so much written about the Sabbath 30+ years after the Sabbath supposedly (according to some) ceased to exist?

Quote:jasd

Not “ceased to exist”; rather removed. However, that stated, “ceased to exist” is markedly different from ‘practice’.

>>Then why do the words and life of Jesus assume that the Sabbath was known and kept and that it would continue to exist, be known & kept?<<

It is my position that the calendar in use then was no more correct vis-à-vis Gd’s OT calendar – than that used by today's Jews. They happily admit to it... Anyway, I repeat – Romans 13:7.

>>There is absolutely nothing in His teachings or in His practice that hints that the Sabbath was "removed."<<

And yet, you bruit extraBiblical prophets?