Sunday--is it the new SABBATH???

[jasd]

>>It would be ludicrous to even talk about the old done away with sabbath 60-70 years after it was changed or done away with.<<

Specifically, per the timeframe you seem to reference – other than ‘removed’ or ‘hidden’ – such as “change” and “done away with” misses the nexus of the discussion... However, that said,

‘changed’ is now intrinsic to the issue – with “done away with” remaining tangential.

[jasd]

>>The Seventh-day Sabbath was created on the seventh day of creation, it is as permanent as all of God's creation,<<

You forgot to mention the many changes to Gd's Genesis creation

[jasd]

>>And in fact, according to the historians, Socrates and Sozoman,<<

Umm, which one was the Arian? or was it both?

>>...most Christians throughout the world -- except for Rome and Alexandria--continued to keep the Sabbath up to the fifth century.<<

One almost suspects that Jesus Christ erred in taking the Kingdom of Gd from those to whom He spoke - giving it to a nation bringing forth its fruits.

>>Clearly this would not have been the case if Christ had abolished the Sabbath.<<

The Sabbath will be restablished during the Millennium.

[jasd]

Okay, I think I addressed everyone's detraction - for what it's worth

[wayfinder]

1st day light and light was separated from the darkness= We still have light and darkness

2nd day The expanse (atmosphere)=We still have an atmosphere.

3rd day Dry land appears and vegetation appears on the dry land=We still have dry land and vegetation.

4th day The Sun, Moon, and Stars for time calculations and light=We still have Sun, Moon, and Stars.

5th day Sea creatures and flying creatures=We still have sea creatures and flying creatures.

6th day Land animals and mankind (male and female)=We still have land animals and mankind (male and female)

7th day God rested, He blessed and sanctified the seventh day of the week=We still have the seven day week and the seventh day is the blessed and sanctified day.

Changes made to creation are not changes of what was created. We have the created groups represented from the creation. By group I mean what I put in the foregoing seven day account.

[jasd]

Okay, I was thinking of such as The Garden of Eden, Tree of Life, the other tree, etc. I suppose I may have been thinking in the miniscule.

Carry-on.

[John317]

>>And in fact, according to the historians, Socrates and Sozoman,<<

Umm, which one was the Arian? or was it both?

Socrates may have been an Arian but no one is certain.

Whether one or both of them was or was not Arian is beside the point. The important fact is that they are respected as Church historians of the fifth century.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2602.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates_of_Constantinople

[jasd]

>>Whether one or both of them was or was not Arian is beside the point. The important fact is that they are respected as Church historians of the fifth century.<<

Goes to credibility. So many early "Church historians" were so undependable; you know, wrong upon the one point, well...

[Dr. Rich]

Exactly John, and that is why they are probably wrong according to the prophecy in Dan. 12:10. Why keep believeing in people when God said that they would not understand the truth--and this goes to the sabbath day. It is in the commandments for a reason.

[jasd]

Matt 23:2 ... The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Matt 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Jesus Christ seems to have affirmed the Jewish economy, including their Sabbath-keeping, by ascribing any legitimacy that may have attended Moses – to the “scribes and the Pharisees”.

What’s that say? considering that Jesus Christ and His disciples constantly withstood the scribes and the Pharisees? most often upon points of Law; such as Sabbath-keeping...

[Richard Holbrook]

You forgot to mention the many changes to Gd's Genesis creation

Hey jasd, How come you can say Jesus Christ, but you can't say God?

[jasd]

>>...How come you can say Jesus Christ, but you can't say God?<<

Not a matter of "can't", but choice.

[Fausto]

Quote:

He is our rest and we are also hidden in Him (Col. 3:3,4). He is the Lord of the Sabbath because He is out sabbath rest. Sabbath means rest and the rest we have in Him and His work through the cross is what we are to boast of - not our vain works of obedience to a day which are like filthy rags compared to His work and sacrifice on the cross. Why go back and believe that our works would be superior to the work of God through His Son's final and once for all work at the cross. To believe Him and honor Him with our faith - that He did accomplish this work, is more precious to Him than gold, whereas those that seek to honor Him with the law must perform all of it to not be guilty breaking it all.

True Believer, you are only correct in saying He's our rest, not Sabbath Rest, but to call Sabbath Keeping a vain boast of obedience that is way out of line, or should I say rich

Sabbath keeping is one of the commandements, how would you interpret this:

Quote:

Mat 5:17 Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill.

:bible:

Or this:

Quote:

Mat 5:18 For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled

Surely this means the law is still very much active, after all there is no verse anywhere in scripture that authorises Sunday as the day of rest!

[Guest]

Surely this means the law is still very much active, after all there is no verse anywhere in scripture that authorises Sunday as the day of rest!

That's correct Fausto.

[phkrause]

Excellent post Fausto.

pk

[Haldog]

Yes, the law is still active but only for those who do not believe.

[Guest]

Where is that in the Bible?

[John317]

>>Whether one or both of them was or was not Arian is beside the point. The important fact is that they are respected as Church historians of the fifth century.<<

Goes to credibility. So many early "Church historians" were so undependable; you know, wrong upon the one point, well...

Three points:

There's no reason to doubt what Socrates and Sozoman wrote about the Sabbath being kept by most Christians at that time.

I don't know of any church historian who questions the reliability of Socrates' and Sozoman's histories.

What they wrote regarding the Sabbath is in harmony with other evidence that we have of the early church. We're not relying only on Socrates and Sozoman.

[John317]

Perhaps Haldog is referring to 1 Tim. 1: 9-11.

All those verses mean is that the law is for those who don't obey it. That's the way it is for all law. It's not saying that the righteous can violate the law of God. If they violate the law of God, they would no longer be righteous.

The definition of righteous and righteousness is conformity to God's law. Unrighteousness is disobedience to God's law. Notice that the verses contrast the righteous person with the lawless person.

A lawless person is one who lives as if there was no law.

A righteous person, who has God's law written on his heart and mind, doesn't need the law telling him what to do because he's already doing the right thing. He's like the person who doesn't need a policeman watching him and making sure he obeys the law. Who really needs the police? The criminals, or those who would disobey the law if the police weren't watching.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:John317

Whether one or both of them was or was not Arian is beside the point. The important fact is that they are respected as Church historians of the fifth century.

Quote:jasd

Goes to credibility. So many early "Church historians" were so undependable; you know, wrong upon the one point, well...

>>Three points:

There's no reason to doubt what Socrates and Sozoman wrote about the Sabbath being kept by most Christians at that time.

I don't know of any church historian who questions the reliability of Socrates' and Sozoman's histories.

What they wrote regarding the Sabbath is in harmony with other evidence that we have of the early church. We're not relying only on Socrates and Sozoman.<<

Are you arguing the points with me? I dunno know, mebbe it is better that I keep my observations to my own thread and talk in circles to myself, eh? I’ve been getting the impression lately that

vapid good, spritz bad. Am I in the ballpark? :-o

[jasd]

What!? no mea culpa? c’mon, John317, you’s be arguing – jes’ like me – ‘fess-up

Arguing by any other designation, be it dialoguing, discussing, discoursing, conversing, contending, or even confabulating – is still arguing – and vice versa; you with your exclamative fonts and

I with my hyperbole...

Did I not protest the push for alla thems rules and regulations implying, “They’ll come tandem with censorship”? [/paraphrased]

Et voilà! prescience be thy name...

[Guest]

Hey jasd, I'll argue with you. I wouldn't want you to start jonesin'

[jasd]

"jonesin’ "!? whoo-boy, that bit of vernacularism takes me back – to days when such as a lid of Maui-wowee was two large and a grow-light cola the size of a Cohiba ran ‘bout seven snaps in Los Angeles – things change. I feel like an anachronism.

Anyway, Richard Holbrook, you’ve provided an insight –

I “Jones” on jasd!

Actually, I was posting piecemeal what I’d developed re the surprising quarter from which recent aspersive allusions re members of the list, as opposed to third parties, originated. I suppose it might prove too delicate a matter to post and

have decided to simply forego doing so... and stick to arguing – content.

[Guest]

Watchu wanna argue about jasd? I know your mother was an Adventist who read Ellen White, but that you rail against the Sabbath. Am I right?

[jasd]

>>I know your mother was an Adventist who read Ellen White,<<

Indeed she did read and respect EGW; however she stopped way short of the .Org’s tendency to treat EGW as parochially instituted ‘Iconolatry’.

>>...but that you rail against the Sabbath. Am I right?<<

“Rail”? Not so – nothing so pejorative. That said, I do take issue with untruths whether fabricated or just plain wrongheaded – and attempt to share alternate views where applicable. You know that of me,

if you know that my mother was SDA.