We have 'the truth'

August 2, 2009

What translation says: "who was with her"? not KJV not NKJV it says with her

"with her" has a lot of meaning here. It was Adam who was with her. Adam was with Eve, following her around. He belonged to her. She was the leader there at that time. The snake was speaking to the leader. The snake assumed the highest position here, due to his superior knowledge and experience. That is what "most subtle" means.

God changed all that as part of the judgment. After sin, God put Adam in charge, Eve to follow Adam, and the snake in the lowest position. This is the way God ruled after the sin, and it supports the opposite being true before the sin.

August 2, 2009

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

What translation says: "who was with her"? not KJV not NKJV it says with her

"with her" has a lot of meaning here. It was Adam who was with her. Adam was with Eve, following her around. He belonged to her. She was the leader there at that time.

Eve was not the leader at that time. Adam was to protect Eve, but Eve attempted to usurp the man's position, and when she did so, she used her influence to lead man into sin. See 1 Tim. 2: 12,13.

See Patriarch and Prophets, chapter 3, on this point. It agrees with the rest of Scripture.

God Himself gave Adam a companion. He provided "an help meet for him"--a helper corresponding to him-one who was fitted to be his companion, and who could be one with him in love and sympathy. Eve was created from a rib taken from the side of Adam, signifying that she was not to control him as the head, nor to be trampled under his feet as an inferior, but to stand by his side as an equal, to be loved and protected by him. PP 46.

Ellen White makes it plain that Adam was to protect Eve. That was part of God's plan right from the beginning.

August 2, 2009

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

"with her" has a lot of meaning here. It was Adam who was with her. Adam was with Eve' date=' following her around. He belonged to her. She was the leader there at that time. [/quote']

Eve was not the leader at that time. Adam was to protect Eve, but Eve attempted to usurp the man's position, and when she did so, she used her influence to lead man into sin. See 1 Tim. 2: 12,13.

Of course that would be true after this judgment was passed. But it is not right to take a text which says how things are after sin, and apply it to the time before sin. You are quoting a text from the time after God's judgment on the original sin. It was part of His judgment that leadership position change from Eve to Adam.

If we could ask Ellen White to settle this for us, first she would be very displeased that we would even ask, then she would likely say she had been given no light on the subject.

I think it is just better to go with what the Bible says when it is read carefully. "Her man with her."

Eve was tending the garden and Adam was following her around with only one thing on his mind. (be fruitful and multiply)

August 2, 2009

Of course that would be true after this judgment was passed. But it is not right to take a text which says how things are after sin, and apply it to the time before sin. You are quoting a text from the time after God's judgment on the original sin. It was part of His judgment that leadership position change from Eve to Adam.

The problem with this is that it does not take into account the fact that the first two chapters of Genesis show that it was God's plan from the beginning that Adam, and not Eve, be the federal head of humanity. Adam was made first, and God made the woman from the man. Inspiration points this out as a reason for belief that Adam had the leadership role. 1 Tim. 2: 13. Adam was larger and no doubt the stronger of the two. He was given the role of naming the animals. God told Adam-- not Eve-- that if he were to eat of the fruit he would die.

NOTE: God did not tell Adam that if the woman ate of the fruit of the tree of good and evil that he would die. Adam's death and the death of humanity rested on the decision of Adam, not the decision of Eve. Death did not pass to humanity through Eve but through Adam. See Romans 5: 12.

These are some of the things that show that it was God's plan from the very beginning of Adam's creation that he be the leader.

Remember that Ellen White said that if Adam had passed the test, God would have made a new woman for him, and Adam would not have died.

August 2, 2009

it was God's plan from the very beginning of Adam's creation that he be the leader.

This will take that into consideration.

In chapter three the text does read that she gave some forbidden fruit to her man with her. She was the de facto leader at that point. Maybe this just occurred right then because the snake was talking to Eve. Perhaps Satan was turning things upside-down. Satan set the leadership roles to snake - Eve - Adam, and The Lord reset them back to the original, Adam - Eve - snake. I think there is a small chiasm there, and I always look for chiasms, because they are never accidental.

August 2, 2009

First of all the text Gen.3:6 where it says "she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." IS in the KJV. I just quoted it. So that should put that one to rest.

As to Eve being the head of Adam (as per oldsailor) or Adam being the head of Eve (as per almost everyone else) BOTH are untrue.

While I do not believe that Gen.1:26-27 are referring to Adam and Eve it does quote God as saying, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. . ." and, "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

So according to the text (these are not my words or my interpretation) the image of God is male AND female; God the Father (male), the Holy Spirit (female, the Mother), and God the Son - The Family in Heaven.

God is all three of these separate and distinct beings working together as God. They are equal because THEY ARE ONE, they just have different jobs.

Adam was NOT created, he was FORMED (separate words with different meanings). Since Eve came out of Adam she was 'formed' at the same time as was he. This does not indicate that she was somehow less than Adam, it indicates that she was identical to Adam, equal in all things except for one chromosome.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, but this DOES NOT make her less than the Father. When we worship God we worship equally the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the Son. All are equally deserving of our praise, because All have equally important roles in our lives, and for our salvation.

I know there are a lot of misogynistic males (including Paul) who for reasons of power and control want it to be as is commonly perceived that the man is the head of the woman, but that is not the way God designed the relationship between men and women, husbands and wives. If we are to mirror the relationship between the God head then we must get back to the ideal that they designed for us and gave us at creation.

[i can picture in my mind the horrified reaction to this from men who fear the loss of control over their wives. But think of what going back to this ideal in your marriage would mean for your wife; to be treated as an equal partner in all things, not as a second class citizen only because of gender. Your relationship with her would reach new heights of love, joy, and trust; just as God experiences.]

August 2, 2009

Since Eve came out of Adam she was 'formed' at the same time as was he.

If they were formed at the same time, why did God need to put Adam to sleep?

Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

August 2, 2009

They were 'formed' together because God did not 'reform' Eve out of the ground as He 'formed' Adam out of the ground.

Obviously, God put Adam asleep so that he would not be hurt when God extracted Adams DNA from which He (God) created Eve.

August 2, 2009

People will use any excuse to maintain the status quo. Change cannot be good especially when it challenges the perceived authority of the man.

August 2, 2009

creation in the context is the same as formed... God used His hands to form Adam, thus creating Him. Also there is no record of your account. Clearly Adam was put to sleep and then Eve was created/formed.

August 2, 2009

Since Eve came out of Adam she was 'formed' at the same time as was he.

The same time means the same time, and if he had to put Adam to sleep it was not the same time. Adam was there first.

August 2, 2009

Of course I am not saying that Eve became extant at the same moment as Adam, that would be absurd. But the reason that God had to go back to Adam for Eve was that He could not find a suitable helper for him out in the world. God did not create Eve out of new DNA, so in essence she was there inside of him when God originally formed him. If God used the same DNA to create Eve as He did to form Adam would that not make Eve the equal of Adam in everything but the time in which they became conscious?

August 2, 2009

QR frame:

I am intermittently reminded by this woman or t’other that Gd’s first attempt at creating mankind – ended up with man having a broken chromosome; whereupon, Gd, dissatisfied, tried again and voilà!...

Woman, be thy name! two perfect chromosomes.

Shut my mouth :-(

August 3, 2009

Of course I am not saying that Eve became extant at the same moment as Adam, that would be absurd. But the reason that God had to go back to Adam for Eve was that He could not find a suitable helper for him out in the world. God did not create Eve out of new DNA, so in essence she was there inside of him when God originally formed him. If God used the same DNA to create Eve as He did to form Adam would that not make Eve the equal of Adam in everything but the time in which they became conscious?

Well if we are going to have the DNA discussion here - then fine.

1. All humans have the same Genome - the same set of coding Genes.

2. Eve had the same set of coding genes as Adam. However she had an XX chromosome where Adam had an XY chromosome and she also had alleles for coding genes activated in a combination that did not exactly match Adams - just as people do today.

3. DNA is not "what makes people equal" in authority or moral worth today - and that never was the case in the past. Even someone with a defective gene today -- is of the same moral worth as you and could even be placed in a position of authority over you.

Adam and Eve were partners in a self-less serve-others-first kingdom of God and thus did not need to "boss each other around".

After that -- came sin.

in Christ,

Bob

August 3, 2009

LifeHiscost,

we have been told by any number of well meaning people that Eve was alone when she encountered the serpent at the Tree of the Learning of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. This apparently is not true. Amazingly, according to Scripture Adam was right there with her.

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. Gen.3:6.

Those four words, "who was with her" have been there the whole time, yet because someone that the church considers to have Scriptural authority says that Eve was alone that is the way we tend to read the text when we come to it. Because we have so much respect for this authority and because this is what we have been taught since grade school we just don't see the words that conflict with what that person said.

How many other situations like this occur that move us away from truth because we just are not observant in how well we read Scripture?

Adam was not the zombie that some have picture him to be standing there with Eve ignoring the conversation and waiting for Eve to "explain it to him and tell him what to do" as some have imagined.

Ellen White is actually a prophet, and was correct when she noted that Adam and Eve were brilliant when compared to the diminished state of mankind today. Not the way evolutionists would tell the story - but still it is the truth.

Adam was made first - and so God addresses Adam first on the subject of sin. Adam does not say "the serpent tricked us" because in fact Adam was not at the tree - and never talked to the serpent.

Adam said the woman gave him the fruit and he ate. Had he been standing at the tree at the time -- this would be the "zombie report". As much as that version might appeal to some - I think that Ellen White has it correct.

The phrase "with her" or "with him" does not require that they be in the immediate presence of each other -- it only requires that they both be joined in doing the same thing.

In Genesis 13:1 Lot does not have to be walking or riding "right next to Abram" as they journey. In fact we know that they both had so many possessions that eventually they could not even be in the same valley together.

Genesis 13:1

And Abram went up out of Egypt, he, and his wife, and all that he had, and Lot with him, into the south.

The Kings with Chedorlaomer where in fact physically with their respective armies - but acted in partnership with Chedorlamer in Battle.

Genesis 14:5

And in the fourteenth year came Chedorlaomer, and the kings that were with him, and smote the Rephaims in Ashteroth Karnaim, and the Zuzims in Ham, and the Emins in Shaveh Kiriathaim,

in Christ,

Bob

August 3, 2009

Adam was not the zombie that some have picture him to be standing there with Eve ignoring the conversation and waiting for Eve to "explain it to him and tell him what to do" as some have imagined.

Adam was made first - and so God addresses Adam first on the subject of sin. Adam does not say "the serpent tricked us" because in fact Adam was not at the tree - and never talked to the serpent.

Adam said the woman gave him the fruit and he ate. Had he been standing at the tree at the time -- this would be the "zombie report". As much as that version might appeal to some - I think that Ellen White has it correct.

Agreed.

Some use the phrase "her husband with her" to try to prove that Adam was with Eve the whole time she was talking to the Devil, but that doesn't make sense. Of course he was with her when she gave him the fruit. That is a tautology. He couldn't possibly have been NOT with her when she gave him the fruit. Therefore the phrase means that she gave the fruit to the one who was her companion. There are too many problems involved if we say that Adam was with her during the temptation.

Let's look at some of those problems we face if we insist that Adam was close to Eve the whole time:

1) It would mean Adam knew Eve was being tricked by Satan yet said absolutely nothing. 1 Tim. 2: 14.

2) This in turn would make it necessary for us to believe Adam watched Eve disobey God, knowing she was doing the very thing that God said would bring about her death. Yet Adam-- who loved her-- said nothing and did nothing to protect her.

3) It would mean that although Adam stood listening to the entire conversation, Satan spoke only to Eve, and did not address a single word to Adam. And Adam in turn did not address a single word to Satan. It makes it appear that during this time, Adam unaccountably yet completely lost all ability to speak.

4) In Gen. 3: 12, Adam does not blame Satan or the Serpent but he blames the woman. Yet if Adam had also been there to hear the Serpent, he could not have merely blamed the woman. He would have also blamed the Serpent.

5) In Gen. 3: 13, the woman blames the Serpent. But she should have blamed Adam if Adam knew what was happening and remained silent while Eve committed the sin that Adam had warned her against.

6) In Gen. 3: 17, God told Adam that he had listened not to the Serpent but to the woman, and that was why he ate of the fruit. It is safe to assume that God would not have said this if Adam ate of it because of listening to the Devil.

7) Why didn't God ask Adam to explain why He stood dumb and allowed His wife to eat of the fruit instead of doing something to stop her? That would be a reasonable question if this is what Adam had done. It seems obvious that the question was not asked because Adam had in fact not seen Eve eat of the fruit. She had eaten it while alone, then she walked over to him and gave him some of it. That makes much more sense than to believe # 1 to 3.

8) In order to believe that Adam was with Eve during the temptation, one must reject the clear statements of the Spirit of Prophecy.

August 3, 2009

Rob wrote "After that -- came sin." Are you saying that Satan, (the serpant) at that time was NOT sinful? Was not the serpant a fallan angel called Satan which at one time was Lucifer? This then would mean that sin came before Adam--Right?

Musicman is right since God said they were one and are also now one. So women of the world, rejoice! You are NOT a second class human!

August 3, 2009

I was with you until that last part. I think you lost me.

August 3, 2009

Are you saying that Satan, (the serpant) at that time was NOT sinful? Was not the serpant a fallan angel called Satan which at one time was Lucifer? This then would mean that sin came before Adam--Right?

Yes, sin was in the universe before the Fall of Adam and Eve. But the important point here is that sin wouldn't have been part of the human experience if Adam and Eve had not sinned.

August 3, 2009

Ok, then Satan was in the whole universe. Hmmm, and all this time I thought Satan had been cast down to this earth--the world full of humans?

Can you please show me where Satan was allowed to go to the whole universe?

And since you agree that Satan was sinful before Adam, what made him this way and how did this happen if there were no humans on this earth for Satan to covet?

August 3, 2009

Ok, then Satan was in the whole universe. Hmmm, and all this time I thought Satan had been cast down to this earth--the world full of humans?

Can you please show me where Satan was allowed to go to the whole universe?

I didn't say sin was in the whole universe. What I'm saying is that there was rebellion and sin in the universe. In other words, the universe witnessed what sin was when Lucifer and the fallen angels rebelled against God. Of course this doesn't mean that sin was present everywhere in the universe.

Quote:

And since you agree that Satan was sinful before Adam, what made him this way and how did this happen if there were no humans on this earth for Satan to covet?

Nothing "made" Satan sinful. Lucifer chose rebellion. He made himself sinful by his choices.

Lucifer fell before the existence of humans. But thank God, Lucifer is already a defeated foe and will be utterly blotted out of existence in a short time, along with all those who choose to follow him.

August 3, 2009

You see DR when we throw out the prophet, we become limited in the amount of knowledge we can access.

August 3, 2009

I am a simple person, so when I see a phrase such as "her husband with her" I naturally think that Adam was right there with his wife when she was talking to the serpent. It seems simple enough to me. Then someone uses the word 'tautology' in trying to explain why I should not take the text as it reads. I must really be stupid to think that I don't need a Ph.D. in religion to be able to understand the truths in Scripture. The day that I believe that I need someone else to give me the correct understanding of Scripture is the day I give up studying for myself and quit seeking truth on my own. If I must have experts to show me what to believe then I refuse to believe anything.

On the other hand if you just read the context you will see that they indeed were both together when this occurred because of verse following;

Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. Gen.3:7.

Eve was talking to the serpent. She took the fruit and ate. She turned and gave some to her husband WHO WAS WITH HER. He ate. And then THE EYES OF BOTH WERE OPENED, and they both knew they were naked.

August 3, 2009

.... if you just read the context you will see that they indeed were both together when this occurred because of verse following;

Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. Gen.3:7.

Eve was talking to the serpent. She took the fruit and ate. She turned and gave some to her husband WHO WAS WITH HER. He ate. And then THE EYES OF BOTH WERE OPENED, and they both knew they were naked.

Please respond to the points made here: