When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[John317]

Quote:

When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

This statement is primarily talking about the people whom God has raised up to give the Three Angels Messages. That's the Seventh-day Adventist church. But the whole reason for His calling the SDA church to give those messages is in order for everyone to be given an opportunity to be saved. It isn't that God loves SDAs more than other people or that God thinks more highly of SDAs than anyone else. That would be exactly the wrong way to understand it.

Before the end comes, there will be millions of people leaving the SDA church because they knew the truth but refused to be sanctified by it, and millions of others who gladly hear the message for the first time, accept it whole-heartedly, and join those who are spreading the Good News. God's purpose is to be able to pour out a special measure of the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain) so that the Three Angels Messages will be proclaimed powerfully to the entire world.

[phkrause]

This statement is primarily talking about the people whom God has raised up to give the Three Angels Messages. That's the Seventh-day Adventist church. But the whole reason for His calling the SDA church to give those messages is in order for everyone to be given an opportunity to be saved. It isn't that God loves SDAs more than other people or that God thinks more highly of SDAs than anyone else. That would be exactly the wrong way to understand it.

Before the end comes, there will be millions of people leaving the SDA church because they knew the truth but refused to be sanctified by it, and millions of others who gladly hear the message for the first time, accept it whole-heartedly, and join those who are spreading the Good News. God's purpose is to be able to pour out a special measure of the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain) so that the Three Angels Messages will be proclaimed powerfully to the entire world.

I agree, your reply is what I was thinking, just didn't say it quite as well.

[skyblue888]

Before the end comes, there will be millions of people leaving the SDA church because they knew the truth but refused to be sanctified by it, and millions of others who gladly hear the message for the first time, accept it whole-heartedly, and join those who are spreading the Good News. God's purpose is to be able to pour out a special measure of the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain) so that the Three Angels Messages will be proclaimed powerfully to the entire world.

John317

__________________________

John, I am glad that you said "accept it whole-heartedly and join those who are spreading the Good News" rather than "accept it whole-heartedly and join the Seventh-day Adventist organization."

It is my sincere belief that those who give the loud cry message, in demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit, will not be any better received by the organization than Jesus was by the Sanhedrin.

sky :)

[Overaged]

Before the end comes, there will be millions of people leaving the SDA church because they knew the truth but refused to be sanctified by it, and millions of others who gladly hear the message for the first time, accept it whole-heartedly, and join those who are spreading the Good News. God's purpose is to be able to pour out a special measure of the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain) so that the Three Angels Messages will be proclaimed powerfully to the entire world.

John317

__________________________

John, I am glad that you said "accept it whole-heartedly and join those who are spreading the Good News" rather than "accept it whole-heartedly and join the Seventh-day Adventist organization."

It is my sincere belief that those who give the loud cry message, in demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit, will not be any better received by the organization than Jesus was by the Sanhedrin.

sky

In Mat 25 we are told that a midnight cry goes out; yet if you read this whole passage, no human could possibly give this "cry." This is because in the end; it does not depend upon us; but on God.

[John317]

John, I am glad that you said "accept it whole-heartedly and join those who are spreading the Good News" rather than "accept it whole-heartedly and join the Seventh-day Adventist organization."

It is my sincere belief that those who give the loud cry message, in demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit, will not be any better received by the organization than Jesus was by the Sanhedrin.

The point I would make here is that under the Latter Rain, the Loud Cry will be given by those who believe in the foundational pillars of our faith as listed in the writings of Ellen White. They will be Sabbath keepers, believe in the prophetic ministry of Ellen White, accept the Third Angels' Messages, including the Investigative Judgment, and they will believe in the entire Bible as God's inspired word. All who are sealed with the seal of God will have ceased to practice sin. Ellen White says plainly that if we are practicing sin, the sealing angel will pass us by. (This doesn't mean that those who are sealed will be absolutely perfect or that that they no longer have a sinful nature. It simply means that every time they are faced with a conscious choice whether to obey or disobey God, they choose to obey God.)

At that time, God will have a group of people who will rather die than commit a sin against God. They won't have the idea-- which seems so prevelent today-- that sin is no big deal and that they can sin and have heaven too.

[Restin]

So, does this means He's never coming?Seems folks are reflecting Him less instead of more.

[Sonny]

So, does this means He's never coming? Seems folks are reflecting Him less instead of more.

John presents a gospel of perfectionism.

The problem with John's gospel is that it retards true growth because one cannot be insecure about his or her salvation in Christ Jesus and simultaneously reflect the love of God.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Restin

So, does this means He's never coming? Seems folks are reflecting Him less instead of more.

John presents a gospel of perfectionism.

The problem with John's gospel is that it retards true growth because one cannot be insecure about his or her salvation in Christ Jesus and simultaneously reflect the love of God.

"Through defects in the character, Satan works to gain control of the whole mind, and he knows that if these defects are cherished he will succeed. Therefore he is constantly seeking to deceive the followers of Christ with his fatal sophistry that it is impossible for them to overcome." G.C.489.

"From the very beginning, it has been the special doctrine of the adversary of God and man to declare that it is impossible for man to keep the precepts of Jehovah. This has been, and still is the work of Satan. This is the seductive doctrine that devils are seeking to spread throughout the world." Review and Herald, July 31, 1888; DA24.

[Sonny]

"Through defects in the character, Satan works to gain control of the whole mind, and he knows that if these defects are cherished he will succeed. Therefore he is constantly seeking to deceive the followers of Christ with his fatal sophistry that it is impossible for them to overcome." G.C.489.

Ellen White is speaking of overcoming specific sins - not perfection in overcoming all sin. Sin is the love of self and if you are going to be perfect then all self-seeking, self-interests and self-love must stop, now! You must live as Christ who "thought not, planned not, lived not for Himself."

[skyblue888]

are you?

"Satan has claimed that it was impossible for man to obey God's commandments; and in our own strength it is true that we cannot obey them. But Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts... When a soul receives Christ, he receives power to live the life of Christ... The life of Christ on earth was a perfect expression of God's law." Christ's Object Lessons, p.314,315.

So to say that it is impossible to live the life of Christ is a lie, Satan's great lie.

sky

[Sonny]

So to say that it is impossible to live the life of Christ is a lie, Satan's great lie.

And to say you are is even a bigger lie!!!

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption.

[skyblue888]

It's not about saying "I am holy" or "I am not sinning" but about whether it is possible to live the life of Christ or not.

sky

[Sonny]

It's not about saying "I am holy" or "I am not sinning" but about whether it is possible to live the life of Christ or not.sky

Doesn't matter if it's possible - what's the point if you aren't doing it?

If you are depending on duplicating Christ's agape love in order to get to heaven you'll never make it.

[Guest]

Funny to see you back on this same old thread where you have argued for at least 2 years. You must love it here....

[Sonny]

Yes and no....

[Guest]

This thread was started on July 8, 2009. You made your first post on the 11th.

[Restin]

Well, if anyone is still reading after all this, I would like to put in my thought again on this topic that proved to be a great discouragement every time I heard it.

What it means to me is that Jesus probably never will come, because the church, and the world, are getting worse, not better and better.

Also, the deacon at church, a good and sincere man, who has rigorously proclaimed how perfection in this life is possible, has been an SDA for 30 yrs and is over 70 himself, and he is not perfect by a long shot; so, if he hasn't made it, who can?

However, I havn't let this kill my relationship with the Lord, for I believe there must be some other explanation for this comment of Sister White's.

But it's just like having a burr dropped into my shoe every time I hear it, that I must struggle with before I can carry on that week.

[Tom Wetmore]

Restin, I am with you on that! The deacon reminds me that if some people live long enough they are "perfected" by senility. Their bodies become too old to do anything anymore, much less a sinful deed, and their minds have no thoughts, much less a sinful one. Maybe Alzheimer's is just God's mind purging tool!

But seriously, since I have carefully tried to avoid this long thread I don't know if anyone else other than me has posted the context of this troubling and widely misinterpreted statement by EGW. I credit Bill Johnson for clearing that up for me. (By coincidence I just saw him this week...) While he was still the editor of the Adventist Review, he wrote an editorial that wiped away years of anxiety for me about this statement. It is reflected in what I posted at the beginning two years ago and after all the rubbish posted since bears repeating again:

I think we drifted a bit far from what EGW was talking about in the quote from COL.

Gail, the answer to your question is right close by that oft quoted but frequently misconstrued sentence.

That quote appears at the end of the chapter, which means that one should carefully read that whole chapter to get an idea from the immediate context exactly what a perfect reproduction of Christ's character would be like. I think you may be pleasantly surprised.

The chapter is talking about the parable of the sower. EGW spends a majority of her words in that chapter setting up the process of growth of the plant to maturity. She correctly points out Who makes it happen and the extent of the contribution of the sower and the seed to the final result.

The harvest happens when the reaper can see the ripe fruit. It is based on this ripe fruit ready for harvest metaphor that EGW makes the quote in question. But it is in the immediately preceding two short paragraphs that she clearly states exactly what that perfectly reproduced character of Christ is and what that ripe fruit of His character really looks like.

Here are the two paragraphs:

Quote:

There can be no growth or fruitfulness in the life that is centered in self. If you have accepted Christ as a personal Saviour, you are to forget yourself, and try to help others. Talk of the love of Christ, tell of His goodness. Do every duty that presents itself. Carry the burden of souls upon your heart, and by every means in your power seek to save the lost. As you receive the Spirit of Christ--the Spirit of unselfish love and labor for others--you will grow and bring forth fruit. The graces of the Spirit will ripen in your character. Your faith will increase, your convictions deepen, your love be made perfect. More and more you will reflect the likeness of Christ in all that is pure, noble, and lovely.

"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. This fruit can never perish, but will produce after its kind a harvest unto eternal life. - COL 68-69.

Let's not make it any more complicated than she meant it to be. Jesus said it ever so simply - "People will know that you are my followers by your love for one another." The sweet smell of ripe fruit is hard to hide.

Tom

[Overaged]

Hey Tom, this is a very cool post. I am glad I read it.

[teresaq]

Agreed! I started skimming the first 2 pages til I came to this and was going to repost it to respond, when I thougtht I should check first to see what OA had responded to.

Yes!! Maybe its all those compilations. lol We take a paragraph from here and there and think we have it without carefully reading the context from whence we took the paragraph. I think it is just so hard to comprehend when we are set on anything being one certain way. It makes it close to impossible to see what it really is saying.

Restin, I am with you on that! The deacon reminds me that if some people live long enough they are "perfected" by senility. Their bodies become too old to do anything anymore, much less a sinful deed, and their minds have no thoughts, much less a sinful one. Maybe Alzheimer's is just God's mind purging tool!

But seriously, since I have carefully tried to avoid this long thread I don't know if anyone else other than me has posted the context of this troubling and widely misinterpreted statement by EGW. I credit Bill Johnson for clearing that up for me. (By coincidence I just saw him this week...) While he was still the editor of the Adventist Review, he wrote an editorial that wiped away years of anxiety for me about this statement. It is reflected in what I posted at the beginning two years ago and after all the rubbish posted since bear repeating again:

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

I think we drifted a bit far from what EGW was talking about in the quote from COL.

Gail, the answer to your question is right close by that oft quoted but frequently misconstrued sentence.

That quote appears at the end of the chapter, which means that one should carefully read that whole chapter to get an idea from the immediate context exactly what a perfect reproduction of Christ's character would be like. I think you may be pleasantly surprised.

...

Tom

[John317]

Quote:

The germination of the seed represents the beginning of spiritual life, and the development of the plant is a beautiful figure of Christian growth. As in nature, so in grace; there can be no life without growth. The plant must either grow or die. As its growth is silent and imperceptible, but continuous, so is the development of the Christian life. At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God's purpose for us is fulfilled, there will be continual advancement. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. As our opportunities multiply, our experience will enlarge, and our knowledge increase. We shall become strong to bear responsibility, and our maturity will be in proportion to our privileges. {COL 65.2}

The plant grows by receiving that which God has provided to sustain its life. It sends down its roots into the earth. It drinks in the sunshine, the dew, and the rain. It receives the life-giving properties from the air. So the Christian is to grow by co-operating with the divine agencies. Feeling our helplessness, we are to improve all the opportunities granted us to gain a fuller experience. As the plant takes root in the soil, so we are to take deep root in Christ. As the plant receives the sunshine, the dew, and the rain, we are to open our hearts to the Holy Spirit. The work is to be done "not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts." Zechariah 4:6. If we keep our minds stayed upon Christ, He will come unto us "as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." Hosea 6:3. As the Sun of Righteousness, He will arise upon us "with healing in His wings." Malachi 4:2. We shall "grow as the lily." We shall "revive as the corn, and grow as the vine." Hosea 14:5, 7. By constantly relying upon Christ as our personal Saviour, we shall grow up into Him in all things who is our head. {COL 66.1}

The wheat develops "first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear." The object of the husbandman in the sowing of the seed and the culture of the growing plant is the production of grain. He desires bread for the hungry, and seed for future harvests. So the divine Husbandman looks for a harvest as the reward of His labor and sacrifice. Christ is seeking to reproduce Himself in the hearts of men; and He does this through those who believe in Him. The object of the Christian life is fruit bearing--the reproduction of Christ's character in the believer, that it may be reproduced in others. {COL 67.1}

The plant does not germinate, grow, or bring forth fruit for itself, but to "give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater." Isaiah 55:10. So no man is to live unto himself. The Christian is in the world as a representative of Christ, for the salvation of other souls. {COL 67.2}

There can be no growth or fruitfulness in the life that is centered in self. If you have accepted Christ as a personal

Saviour, you are to forget yourself, and try to help others. Talk of the love of Christ, tell of His goodness. Do every duty that presents itself. Carry the burden of souls upon your heart, and by every means in your power seek to save the lost. As you receive the Spirit of Christ--the Spirit of unselfish love and labor for others--you will grow and bring forth fruit. The graces of the Spirit will ripen in your character. Your faith will increase, your convictions deepen, your love be made perfect. More and more you will reflect the likeness of Christ in all that is pure, noble, and lovely. {COL 67.3}

"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,

gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. This fruit can never perish, but will produce after its kind a harvest unto eternal life. {COL 68.1}

"When the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come." Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69.1}

It is the privilege of every Christian not only to look for but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (2 Peter 3:12, margin). Were all who profess His name bearing fruit to His glory, how quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the gospel. Quickly the last great harvest would be ripened, and Christ would come to gather the precious grain. {COL 69.2}

Chap. 4 - Tares

"Another parable put He forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also." {COL 70.1}

"The field," Christ said, "is the world." But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world. The parable is a description of that which pertains to the kingdom of God, His work of salvation of men; and this work is accomplished through the church. True, the Holy Spirit has gone out into all the world; everywhere it is moving upon the hearts of men; but it is in the church that we are to grow and ripen for the garner of God. {COL 70.2}

"He that sowed the good seed is the Son of man. . . . The good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one." The good seed represents those who are born of the word of God, the truth. The tares represent a class who are the fruit or embodiment of error, of false principles. "The enemy that sowed them is the devil." Neither God nor His angels ever sowed a seed that would produce a tare. The tares are always sown by Satan, the enemy of God and man. {COL 70.3}

In the East, men sometimes took revenge upon an enemy by strewing his newly sown fields with the seeds of some noxious weed that, while growing, closely resembled wheat. Springing up with the wheat, it injured the crop and brought trouble and loss to the owner of the field. So it is from enmity to Christ that Satan scatters his evil seed among the good grain of the kingdom. The fruit of his sowing he attributes to the Son of God. By bringing into the church those who bear Christ's name while they deny His character, the wicked one causes that God shall be dishonored, the work of salvation misrepresented, and souls imperiled. {COL 71.1}

Christ's servants are grieved as they see true and false believers mingled in the church. They long to do something to cleanse the church. Like the servants of the householder, they are ready to uproot the tares. But Christ says to them, "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest." {COL 71.2}

Christ has plainly taught that those who persist in open sin must be separated from the church, but He has not committed to us the work of judging character and motive. He knows our nature too well to entrust this work to us. Should we try to uproot from the church those whom we suppose to be spurious Christians, we should be sure to make mistakes. Often we regard as hopeless subjects the very ones whom Christ is drawing to Himself. Were we to deal with these souls according to our imperfect judgment, it would perhaps extinguish their last hope. Many who think themselves Christians will at last be found wanting. Many will be in heaven who their neighbors supposed would never enter there. Man judges from appearance, but God judges the heart. The tares and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest; and the harvest is the end of probationary time. {COL 71.3}

There is in the Saviour's words another lesson, a lesson of wonderful forbearance and tender love. As the tares have their roots closely intertwined with those of the good grain, so false brethren in the church may be closely linked with true disciples. The real character of these pretended believers is not fully manifested. Were they to be separated from the church, others might be caused to stumble, who but for this would have remained steadfast. {COL 72.1}

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

It's not about saying "I am holy" or "I am not sinning" but about whether it is possible to live the life of Christ or not.sky

Doesn't matter if it's possible - what's the point if you aren't doing it?

If you are depending on duplicating Christ's agape love in order to get to heaven you'll never make it.

We are not discussing whether you or I are doing it or not. That's God 's business to decide. He alone knows. Those who are living the life of Christ will be the last ones to know or be conscious of it.

The point is: Do we believe the word of God or not?

And it is not about earning Heaven through sinless living for only the merits of Christ will avail in our behalf.

sky

[Guest]

We are not discussing whether you or I are doing it or not. That's God 's business to decide. He alone knows. Those who are living the life of Christ will be the last ones to know or be conscious of it.

The point is: Do we believe the word of God or not?

And it is not about earning Heaven through sinless living for only the merits of Christ will avail in our behalf.

sky

Amen!!!

[John317]

I second that AMEN.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: sky

We are not discussing whether you or I are doing it or not. That's God 's business to decide. He alone knows. Those who are living the life of Christ will be the last ones to know or be conscious of it.

The point is: Do we believe the word of God or not?

And it is not about earning Heaven through sinless living for only the merits of Christ will avail in our behalf.

sky

Amen!!!

And I second that AMEN..

I just saw Johns post so I guess I will THIRD that AMEN.