When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[Twilight]

Yeah pnat, stop with the word putting already. Mark never said those things.

Thank you Richard.

My position is this:

The Holy Spirits presence is placed in my heart (the physical location).

He also guides and communes with my mind.

What the Holy Spirit is, is "spirit".

I have absolutely no idea what that is.

Now many agree with this basic outline I believe, just some do not think that "heart" in this instance refers to the exact physical location of the heart.

Whatever someone thinks the "heart" is the only thing some have disagreed with me on.

But that is of no concern to me, the important thing for people to understand is that they have the promise of the personal presence of God in them, with them, in an intimacy that goes beyond explanation...

That is the key.

What the "heart" is, is a detail.

God will show us when we get to heaven if I was incorrect...

-------------

I believe the agreement is pretty clear with many on here, except with Pnatt and Teresa, who make the claim the Holy Spirit does not literally dwell in the heart or the body in any sense (from what I understand), and at least Teresa fears that to claim such is "spiritualism".

[Guest]

I agree 100%. And don't forget Mark, that these are the same people who bought into a theology that causes them to have to explain away 99.9% of what the Bible says about the destruction of the wicked.

[Twilight]

I agree 100%. And don't forget Mark, that these are the same people who bought into a theology that causes them to have to explain away 99.9% of what the Bible says about the destruction of the wicked.

And that is why I am extremely cautious about people trying to wrest the SOP to suit a personal position and then claiming that anyone who does not agree is disagreeing with the SOP.

The bible is the test as per my other thread I have just started.

If it is truth, it will be in the scripture.

[Gordon1]

and at least Teresa fears that to claim such is "spiritualism".

The meaning of spirit (ruwach 7307/8 or pneuma 4151) is better grasped by careful Bible study, comparing all the texts (About 383x in the OT & similar again in the NT, for a total of c. 770 passages.)

If Scripture repeatedly states that God's Spirit dwells in believers, this teaching should never be confused with Spiritualism. Such would be calling good evil and evil good.

Spiritualism emanates from Satan and can only have a foothold where the Bible is misunderstood. The New Testament writers had clear understanding of the Spirit from Old Testament usage. They were using well-known concepts and vocabulary to build the Christian Church on a solid foundation.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

and at least Teresa fears that to claim such is "spiritualism".

The meaning of spirit (ruwach 7307/8 or pneuma 4151) is better grasped by careful Bible study, comparing all the texts (About 383x in the OT & similar again in the NT, for a total of c. 770 passages.)

If Scripture repeatedly states that God's Spirit dwells in believers, this teaching should never be confused with Spiritualism. Such would be calling good evil and evil good.

Spiritualism emanates from Satan and can only have a foothold where the Bible is misunderstood. The New Testament writers had clear understanding of the Spirit from Old Testament usage. They were using well-known concepts and vocabulary to build the Christian Church on a solid foundation.

But we cannot say what "spirit" is exactly Gordon1.

If you can, I would be interested to hear it. :-)

But you are right, the moment we start calling the indwelling of the Holy Spirit "spiritualism", we are on dangerous ground!

Mark :-)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

so you havent really studied the kellogg crises, then? or testimonies 7 and 8?

Kellog was teaching that the Holy Spirit was an impersonal force, rather than an individual.

You may have confused that with the simple fact that your body is indeed a temple to the Holy Spirit.

You are talking about a seperate issue.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Secondly, what does it mean to say that the Holy Spirit dwells "in" us? I get the impression you view this in a physical way, as if the Holy Spirit were a gas. So He dwells in us like air dwells is us. But in our heart muscle.

Where have I ever said that Pnat?

You are indeed misrepresenting my views.

...

But please please desist in this putting words in my mouth about what you think I believe the nature of the Holy Spirit is when I have expressed no such thing.

And please stop making claims that I beleive God is gas or other such foolish points.

Then come and argue, but please stop arguing pointless issues that I am not stating.

It really does put me off discussing anything with you.

tell the truth mark...pnat did not say that you said that.... he said he gets the impression that is what you mean and so is asking...

see post above as to what you have stated...

[Twilight]

he also taught that God was inside the tree making it grow, and inside of us---read the bio...

And what has that got to do with this:

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

[Twilight]

tell the truth mark...pnat did not say that you said that.... he said he gets the impression that is what you mean and so is asking...

see post above as to what you have stated...

He is intimating something I have repeatedly denied every time he has stated it.

Do you think he should keep stating that?

To what end?

To give others the impression this is what I believe perhaps?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

he also taught that God was inside the tree making it grow, and inside of us---read the bio...

And what has that got to do with this:

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

I was wondering myself what Kellog has to do with what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit. Everybody knows what happened with Kellog. It's not exactly a secret, and it doesn't change what the Bible says. We know his beliefs were not biblical.

[teresaq]

he also taught that God was inside the tree making it grow, and inside of us---read the bio...

[pnattmbtc]

Yeah pnat, stop with the word putting already. Mark never said those things.

[pnattmbtc]

Where have I ever said that Pnat?

You are indeed misrepresenting my views.

There is no one here that could explain what Gods Spirit consists of.

Just like we cannot explain what our "spirit" is exactly.

Can you explain what Gods Spirit is?

I cannot.

I do not understand it.

But please please desist in this putting words in my mouth about what you think I believe the nature of the Holy Spirit is when I have expressed no such thing.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Where have I ever said that Pnat?

You are indeed misrepresenting my views.

...

But please please desist in this putting words in my mouth about what you think I believe the nature of the Holy Spirit is when I have expressed no such thing.

I didn't put words in your mouth. I said I received a certain impression. That has to do with how I'm understanding what you're saying; it's not a claim that you're saying the thing I have the impression of. If my understanding is incorrect, I invite you to explain yourself more clearly, so I'm understanding you correctly.

Quote:

And please stop making claims that I beleive God is gas or other such foolish points.

[teresaq]

I agree 100%. And don't forget Mark, that these are the same people who bought into a theology that causes them to have to explain away 99.9% of what the Bible says about the destruction of the wicked.

[Twilight]

kellogg also said,

What a wonderful thought, that this mighty God that keeps

the whole universe in order, is in us! . . .

But in addition to the fact that God is in every man, ....--Ibid.,p. 120. {5BIO 285.8}

he said he meant the Holy Spirit...

Yes, that is what the bible said.

Kellog was in error because he started to believe the Holy Spirit was an impersonal "power", rather than an individual.

I think you may have got confused what exactly the issue with Kellog was...

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is biblical, as we have shown you from the texts.

What is unbiblical is that the Holy Spirit is not an "individual".

You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater here...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard

Yeah pnat, stop with the word putting already. Mark never said those things.

He specifically said he doesn't believe that "heart" has do to with the mind. You, however, wrote:

Quote:

I do believe God puts His spirit within us. Just like the Bible says. I don't believe when it refers to the heart, that it is talking about that muscle that pumps blood, but the mind. They are used interchangably by the Bible and EGW.

This agrees with what I've been saying, and disagrees with what Mark has been saying.

I do not believer "heart" means "mind", based purely on a biblical exposition.

That they do indeed refer to two seperate components.

This is unrelated to the issue of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Where have I ever said that Pnat?

You are indeed misrepresenting my views.

There is no one here that could explain what Gods Spirit consists of.

Just like we cannot explain what our "spirit" is exactly.

Can you explain what Gods Spirit is?

I cannot.

I do not understand it.

But please please desist in this putting words in my mouth about what you think I believe the nature of the Holy Spirit is when I have expressed no such thing.

I didn't put words in your mouth. I said I received a certain impression. That has to do with how I'm understanding what you're saying; it's not a claim that you're saying the thing I have the impression of. If my understanding is incorrect, I invite you to explain yourself more clearly, so I'm understanding you correctly.

Quote:

And please stop making claims that I beleive God is gas or other such foolish points.

I made no such claim. Please don't misrepresent what I'm saying. All I'm asking is for you to explain what you mean. You emphasize that the Holy Spirit is "in" us, and that this has to do with our body, and heart, and not our mind. I have two questions here:

1.I'm representing your thought correctly here, aren't I? That is, this is what you're claiming, isn't it?

2.What do you think what you believe means? That is, what does it mean to say that the Holy Spirit is "in" our heart, or in our body?

Quote:

Study this verse:

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Then come and argue, but please stop arguing pointless issues that I am not stating.

It really does put me off discussing anything with you.

Please just explain what you mean, and don't misrepresent what I'm saying. I've been very clear as to what I think this means, and I've quoted from the SOP which says the same thing I said. You've said you don't like having the SOP quoted, and I understand you disagree with what I've written, but I don't know what you think. Please explain what you think it means to say that the Holy Spirit is "in" our heart.

Also, it is correct that you believe "heart" in Scripture is referring to the heart which is in our chest, and is not dealing with the mind in any way, right? That is, I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly here, and not misrepresenting what you think.

I have explained it to you again and again Pnat.

You do not seem to be able to hear what I am saying.

I am saying this:

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

That the personal presence of the individual person of the Holy Spirit dwells in the Christians heart.

As to what the Holy Spirit is "made of", I will not dare to speculate...

[pnattmbtc]

Mark, do the following four points accurately reflect your view?

1.The Holy Spirit dwells in our heart.

2.This means the literal chest region, and has nothing to do with the mind.

3.You don't know what this means, nor how the Holy Spirit does this, just that He does, because that's what you understand the Bible to say.

4.You feel this is important for us to understand.

These are accurate representations of your view, correct?

[pnattmbtc]

I do not believer "heart" means "mind", based purely on a biblical exposition.

That they do indeed refer to two seperate components.

[Twilight]

Mark, do the following four points accurately reflect your view?

1.The Holy Spirit dwells in our heart.

2.This means the literal chest region, and has nothing to do with the mind.

3.You don't know what this means, nor how the Holy Spirit does this, just that He does, because that's what you understand the Bible to say.

4.You feel this is important for us to understand.

These are accurate representations of your view, correct?

1. Yes.

2. No.

3. I do know what this means, but not how the Holy Spirit does this.

4. If you are open to it, yes.

Why?

Because it helps me to discern the still small voice of God.

It helps me to differentiate.

I know you will probably not understand this, but I know "where" to "listen" for the still small voice of the Holy Spirit.

Something I have learned to do.

But I am not arguing that "heart" does not sometimes refer to the whole of the inner workings of mans thoughts and feelings.

What I am disagreeing with is this idea that the "heart" means "mind".

Makes no sense.

Why?

Because Jesus differentiated them:

Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

The word for heart and mind are both very specific in the Greek.

Heart does not mean "mind".

But this is not something that I demand is a test, but a simple profound truth that aids in my walk with God.

It also has a parrallel in the sanctuary service.

[Twilight]

Let me ask you a question, as I have taken the time to answer yours pnat.

If you do not mind.

Why are their different words for heart and mind, if they mean the same thing?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

kellogg also said,

What a wonderful thought, that this mighty God that keeps

the whole universe in order, is in us! . . .

But in addition to the fact that God is in every man, ....--Ibid.,p. 120. {5BIO 285.8}

he said he meant the Holy Spirit...

Yes, that is what the bible said.

Kellog was in error because he started to believe the Holy Spirit was an impersonal "power", rather than an individual.

I think you may have got confused what exactly the issue with Kellog was...

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is biblical, as we have shown you from the texts.

What is unbiblical is that the Holy Spirit is not an "individual".

You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater here...

Mark :-)

perhaps you could show us a specific quote where kellogg believed, as you say, that the Holy Spirit was an impersonal "power", rather than an individual...

you are pretty much saying the same thing kellogg believed as well as sky believes, including being in chairs, tables, glasses, etc.

[pnattmbtc]

Let me ask you a question, as I have taken the time to answer yours pnat.

If you do not mind.

Why are their different words for heart and mind, if they mean the same thing?

They don't mean the same thing. For example, if I say to my wife, "I love you with all my mind," that doesn't convey the same thought as "I love you with all my heart," even though both involve functions of the mind.

[pnattmbtc]

Mark, this is from a conversation on the other thread:

Quote:

p:Let's get back to the Holy Spirit dwelling in the heart. Let's assume that the heart here is the literal heart, in the chest region. How does the Holy Spirit literally dwell in it?

M:I do not know.

The bible does not say.

But it says He does.

That is sufficient for me.

Christ dwells in my heart by faith.

He pours His love into my heart through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

How He does this is a spiritual mystery.

But He does do this.

From what you wrote, I understood you to mean the chest region when speaking of the heart. You affirmed this understanding here. When I asked you how the Holy Spirit dwells in the chest region heart, you said you don't know, but affirmed several times that he does.

I asked you:

Quote:

2.This means the literal chest region, and has nothing to do with the mind.

To which you responded, "No." You explained:

Quote:

But I am not arguing that "heart" does not sometimes refer to the whole of the inner workings of mans thoughts and feelings.

I appreciate your helping me to understand correctly your view. Are you disagreeing with my point 2 above because I said it had nothing to do with the mind? That is, if I had simply written:

Quote:

2.This means the literal chest region.

Would you have agreed with this? If not, then what is it you understand "heart" to be referring to?