When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[Robert]

he keeps on insisting that agape and Gods Law are seperate entities...

They are....The law is rules written on stone. Agape, is what is written on heart through the new birth. It is a process. Agape, has no self in it. I'm not saying we have no self awareness....I mean that agape love is always outward. Just as by the fall you love yourself, agape takes that love of self and bends it back towards your neighbor.

Keep in mind that agape is always outward, never inward. The minute you bend it back to self you have iniquity (our bent to self).

Again, Ellen White gives two excellent examples:

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them."

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

Did you get that?

Jesus didn't think of Himself....He lived to serve. He was the servant of all.

In heaven we we won't think of self, but instead we will live to serve those around us.

[Robert]

I am not a "pharisee," just because you call me one. Can you explain from the Bible; (not from jack) why my last post is "wrong?"

Gal 5: 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]

A Christian for me, is someone who has accepted the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and is walking after the Spirit.

Your thoughts?

I don't know about using such a statement to define a Christian. It seems like something that we would have a hard time figuring...

[Overaged]

[uote=Overaged]I am not a "pharisee," just because you call me one. Can you explain from the Bible; (not from jack) why my last post is "wrong?"

Gal 5: 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

[Robert]

wanting to obey His law.

[Overaged]

Quote:

Desiring to obey is not obeying.

Quite true Robert; and it would also follow that anyone truly wanting to obey would also do just that. The people being referred to in that text did habitually obey because they knew it was not an optional thing.

Quote:

Jesus was under the law' date=' that's why He died.

Quote:

Keep in mind what EGW said. "Deity did not sink and die - humanity died". The humanity that Christ, as God, assumed was our humanity. Christ as God remained Himself while taking our fallen humanity into Himself. All that's EGW and I fully agree.

So it was our humanity that was born under the law...born of a woman....As a man Christ was born in death row, not because He sinned, but because He assumed our fallen humanity under the curse.

Here's Waggoner:

Read [/quote']It doesn't matter to me so much what Ellen White or Waggoner says. I do use their insights in my Bible study; but in this matter it is too easy to mix up other people's writings to say things they actually don't. But the Bible says that "Jesus died once for the ungodly;" and that is enough for me. I don't have to worry about the exact nature of He who died for me; just that He did, and that He would have even if I were the only one that could ever be saved. This is the gospel; that He who died for our sins, will give us "power to become the sons and daughters of God," meaning obeying Him, because we love Him; and we know that others will be attracted to Him; just because we care enough to say: "here am I Lord, send me." How can we say this without obedience to whatever He would answer us when we say this?

[Robert]

The people being referred to in that text did habitually obey because they knew it was not an optional thing.

Living Christ's life...living His selfless agape love is the fulfillment of the law. Those folks didn't live His life....They fell short and the law doesn't accept imperfection. One ounce of selfishness means condemnation.

[Robert]

He who died for our sins

Let's say you murder someone and you go before the judge. The judge passes the death sentence on your crime, but your lawyer says "you can take my life in his place". What will the judge say to your lawyer?

You can't die in his place because you aren't the law breaker....You client is. He must die.

Jesus couldn't just simply die in our place. He didn't do the crime. He was sinless...he was perfect. Only the guilty can be condemned.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

He who died for our sins

Let's say you murder someone and you go before the judge. The judge passes the death sentence on your crime, but your lawyer says "you can take my life in his place". What will the judge say to your lawyer?

You can't die in his place because you aren't the law breaker....You client is. He must die.

Jesus couldn't just simply die in our place. He didn't do the crime. He was sinless...he was perfect. Only the guilty can be condemned.

Well, who then died? And how could the judge simply say "I forgive you,now you don't have to pay the price"? If the law says the person who breaks the law must die who is the judge to say that the lawbreaker doesn't have to die? Sort of a delemna, wouldn't you think?

[Robert]

Well, who then died?

EGW: "Humanity died, Deity did not sink and die"

Paul: "So, my brothers, you also died to the law [it demanded YOUR death] in the body of Christ" [Rom 7:4]

Note that your life from Adam died in the body of Christ. Why? You are a sinner...you had to die.

Paul: "We know that our old self [our life from Adam] was crucified [past tense, refers to the cross] with him...."

Note our life from Adam died when Christ was crucified. Hence, when "One died for all, then all died" [2 Corinthians 5:14]

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged] The people being referred to in that text did habitually obey because they knew it was not an optional thing./quote]

Living Christ's life...living His selfless agape love is the fulfillment of the law. Those folks didn't live His life....They fell short and the law doesn't accept imperfection. One ounce of selfishness means condemnation.

Jesus says "be ye therefore perfect," and He would never tell us nor the Apostles to do something we could not do. When Jesus "fulfilled" the law; He showed us how it is to be lived. He did not bring it to and end. (see Mat 5:17)

[Overaged]

quote=doug yowell]Well, who then died? /quote]

EGW: "Humanity died, Deity did not sink and die"

Paul: "So, my brothers, you also died to the law [it demanded YOUR death] in the body of Christ" [Rom 7:4]

Note that your life from Adam died in the body of Christ. Why? You are a sinner...you had to die.

Paul: "We know that our old self [our life from Adam] was crucified [past tense, refers to the cross] with him...."

Note our life from Adam died when Christ was crucified. Hence, when "One died for all, then all died" [2 Corinthians 5:14]

Our "old life from Adam" did not suddenly die thousands of years ago before we were even living. It cannot die until we are "born again;" and that only happens to the living. Not the dead. Not the missing. Only when you are alive and living is there hope for you in Christ. Unless His Sacrifice has been accepted and applied to the life, it cannot do anything. Jesus does not save us by force. It is "the law of sin and death" that we "die to" IN Christ.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

This "law of sin and death certainly would not be God's ten Commandments/Promises. We are always slaves to "the law of The Spirit of life in Christ Jesus."

[Robert]

Jesus says "be ye therefore perfect," and He would never tell us nor the Apostles to do something we could not do. When Jesus "fulfilled" the law; He showed us how it is to be lived. He did not bring it to and end. (see Mat 5:17)

That's why Christ gave the law to show us our pompous egos. Statements like "He would never tell us ... to do something we could not do" illustrates why God had to enter into the Old Covenant with Israel.

The only way to convince sinners (who are by nature proud) is to expose their complete inability to keep the law. God never...let me repeat that...God never gave the law as a means of salvation. The OC was given to open the eyes of the self-righteous (what we are by nature) that "there's none good, no, not even one."

Let me give you an example. Let's say you constantly brag that you are a math genius - especially with calculus. Everyday you go on and on and on how smart you are and that there's nothing, mathematical, that you can't do.

What's the best way to shut you up? Let me reword this...what's the best way to expose your complete inability to do what you claim?

Answer: Test you.

So one day, as you are bragging, I give you a second order, homogeneous, differential calculus problem. What happens? My test exposes your complete inability to do what you claim. Now you may have been honest, you may have thought that you could do any problem, but until I exposed you, you didn't know.

That's why God have the law. Didn't He know that the Jews couldn't keep the law? Sure, but they didn't know!

[Robert]

Our "old life from Adam" did not suddenly die thousands of years ago before we were even living.

I'm sorry, but the scriptures I quoted calls your theology a lie. Those statements that I quoted from Paul are all in the past tense.

Again, if you knew the gospel you would know better, but you don't. Hence you are into legalism....

[Robert]

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life [where?] in Christ Jesus hath made me [context: the believer of Romans 7] free from the law of sin [the sin nature] and death [the wages of sin].

You need to pay attention when you quote something.

Notice, the law of the Spirit (the power of the Spirit), "in Christ Jesus" hath made ME (the man of Romans 7) free from the sin nature and it's result, death.

Is the man of Romans 7 free from his sin nature? No, he is struggling with it and is being defeated. Also, is he immortal? No.... So he isn't free from sin and death. Then where was he set free?

Answer: "In Christ"

What happened "in Christ"? If you can answer this then you can give me the real gospel, not this false gospel I hear from the pulpits around the world.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

quote=Overaged]

A Christian for me, is someone who has accepted the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and is walking after the Spirit.

Your thoughts?

I don't know about using such a statement to define a Christian. It seems like something that we would have a hard time figuring...

Paul says it so much better:

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

:-)

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]quote=Twilight]quote=Overaged]

A Christian for me, is someone who has accepted the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and is walking after the Spirit.

Your thoughts? /quote]I don't know about using such a statement to define a Christian. It seems like something that we would have a hard time figuring... /quote]

Paul says it so much better:

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

:-)

But we were talking about evidence that someone is a Christian. This would not always be something one would see and be able to prove. Many people would not have a clue what is meant by this. Why can't we just say a Christian is someone who is Christ-like?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

quote=Overaged]quote=Twilight]quote=Overaged]

A Christian for me, is someone who has accepted the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and is walking after the Spirit.

Your thoughts? /quote]I don't know about using such a statement to define a Christian. It seems like something that we would have a hard time figuring... /quote]

Paul says it so much better:

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

:-)

But we were talking about evidence that someone is a Christian. This would not always be something one would see and be able to prove. Many people would not have a clue what is meant by this. Why can't we just say a Christian is someone who is Christ-like?

We could say that, indeed John did.

I do not think it is either or.

But rather the two are part of the same truth.

Your thoughts?

[pnattmbtc]

Robert, do not use your false Sequira "gospel" to teach people that they are free to cast away the "law of the Holy One of Israel:"

Please don't do this. This isn't fair to Sequeira. Sequeira is not Robert, no matter how much Robert quotes him or references him. If you have an issue with Sequeira, you should quote him, and point out what you disagree with.

[pnattmbtc]

Twilight:A Christian for me, is someone who has accepted the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and is walking after the Spirit.

Your thoughts?

Overaged:I don't know about using such a statement to define a Christian. It seems like something that we would have a hard time figuring...

I agree with this. We had a long conversation and I asked Twilight many, many times to define what he meant by this, but he couldn't. So he believes in something which is very important to him, but which he cannot define what he means by it.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Twilight:A Christian for me, is someone who has accepted the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and is walking after the Spirit.

Your thoughts?

Overaged:I don't know about using such a statement to define a Christian. It seems like something that we would have a hard time figuring...

I agree with this. We had a long conversation and I asked Twilight many, many times to define what he meant by this, but he couldn't. So he believes in something which is very important to him, but which he cannot define what he means by it.

You could not understand it Pnat, because you believe that the law written in the mind is what is meant by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Rather than the literal spiritual presence of God in you.

So you confuse the work the Holy Spirit does in you, with His presence.

Unless of course you have changed your position.

God dwells in us spiritually when we are born again.

His personal presence is in us, with us.

As a person.

The bible talks of this over and over, yet you did not seem able to accept this last time we talked about this.

It was that, that you could not seem to understand, which is why my responses made no sense to you.

The work of the Holy Spirit on your heart and mind is not the same as the presence of the Holy Spirit in you.

A man juggling balls in a room is juggling.

He is not a "juggling".

He is a "juggler".

Until you grasp that, you will not understand any of this.

I ask you the same question that Paul asked of the Corinthians.

Don't you know the Holy Spirit literally dwells in you?

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Robert, do not use your false Sequira "gospel" to teach people that they are free to cast away the "law of the Holy One of Israel:"

Please don't do this. This isn't fair to Sequeira. Sequeira is not Robert, no matter how much Robert quotes him or references him. If you have an issue with Sequeira, you should quote him, and point out what you disagree with.

He made Robert believe he can keep right on sinning until Jesus comes, and still be saved. He also taught him that the Sabbath is meaningless. Therefore I disagree with his phoney baloney, plastic banana, good time rock and roll gospel.

He's a heretic. A wolf dressed up like a sheep. And now, so is poor Robert. Although he don't wear the sheep suit all that well. LOL

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Please don't do this. This isn't fair to Sequeira. Sequeira is not Robert, no matter how much Robert quotes him or references him. If you have an issue with Sequeira, you should quote him, and point out what you disagree with.

He made Robert believe he can keep right on sinning until Jesus comes, and still be saved. He also taught him that the Sabbath is meaningless. Therefore I disagree with his phoney baloney, plastic banana, good time rock and roll gospel.

He's a heretic. A wolf dressed up like a sheep. And now, so is poor Robert. Although he don't wear the sheep suit all that good. LOL

I am also deeply suspicious of JS teachings...

They have departed from the foundational truths of the Adventist message in a very subtle way.

It is those that support it that usually give me an inkling of where accepting it will go.

As to the sheeps clothing, those teeth do look big and sharp... lol :-)

[Guest]

It is those that support it that usually give me an inkling of where accepting it will go.

I know exactly what you're saying brother. Amen.

[Overaged]

quote=pnattmbtc]I wonder if Robert will appreciate your antichrist comment Richard; or did Mr Murphy make this post?