When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[Robert]

No! This isn't what Paul says. Paul does NOT say that his mind is in harmony with God's law.

[Robert]

R:Then according to your own theology you need to be converted because you are not living Christ's life.

What? Please quote something I wrote! My, you're really twisting things here! Be fair, Robert.

No, bubba, you said that unless a person is keeping the law that he's unconverted....That's your message...and it's a legalistic/self-righteous one at that....I have no use for Pharisees.

So if you are going to make that theological point, then to be fair you are lost too because you are not living Christ's life. 1 John 1:8 and Roman 3:23 tells me this....

[Robert]

So, the Rom.7 man,who,with a despairing sense of his own finite weakness,cries out,"O wretched man that I am!Who will deliver me from this body of death?",and who follows by exclaming,"I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!",does not have an Advocate with the Father?Why then is he thanking God?

Excellent point! The answer? Romans 8:1,2

1 For this cause those who are in Christ Jesus will not be judged as sinners [condemned]. [Why?] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

In other words "in Christ" I already stand justified, sanctified and glorified. [see 1 Cor 1:30] I am complete in Him!

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

R:Then according to your own theology you need to be converted because you are not living Christ's life.

What? Please quote something I wrote! My, you're really twisting things here! Be fair, Robert.

No, bubba, you said that unless a person is keeping the law that he's unconverted....That's your message...and it's a legalistic/self-righteous one at that....I have no use for Pharisees.

So if you are going to make that theological point, then to be fair you are lost too because you are not living Christ's life. 1 John 1:8 and Roman 3:23 tells me this....

Who's Bubba?

[Woody]

All legalists are known as Bubbas.

[Woody]

But not all Bubbas are legalistic.

[doug yowell]

All legalists are known as Bubbas.

Oh.

[doug yowell]

But not all Bubbas are legalistic.

What are they then?

[pnattmbtc]

Your mistake is in thinking that just because one's mind/heart is in harmony with God's agape that this translates into outward obedience.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

R:Then according to your own theology you need to be converted because you are not living Christ's life.

p:What? Please quote something I wrote! My, you're really twisting things here! Be fair, Robert.

R:No, bubba, you said that unless a person is keeping the law that he's unconverted....That's your message...and it's a legalistic/self-righteous one at that....I have no use for Pharisees.

So if you are going to make that theological point, then to be fair you are lost too because you are not living Christ's life. 1 John 1:8 and Roman 3:23 tells me this....

No, Robert, this isn't my message, nor something I've said. In response to my comment that you are misrepresenting what I say, and that you quote something I say, what do you do? Do you quote something I've said? No! You forge forward with new misrepresentations!

It doesn't speak well to your perspective that you would do this.

If you wish to have a discussion regarding things I actually believe, please quote things I've actually said.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

So, the Rom.7 man,who,with a despairing sense of his own finite weakness,cries out,"O wretched man that I am!Who will deliver me from this body of death?",and who follows by exclaming,"I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!",does not have an Advocate with the Father?Why then is he thanking God?

Excellent point! The answer? Romans 8:1,2

1 For this cause those who are in Christ Jesus will not be judged as sinners [condemned]. [Why?] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

In other words "in Christ" I already stand justified, sanctified and glorified. [see 1 Cor 1:30] I am complete in Him!

He is thanking God and then goes on to explain why in Chapter 8.

He is not thanking God for the chapter 7 experience...

[Woody]

Quote:

Excellent point! The answer? Romans 8:1,2

1 For this cause those who are in Christ Jesus will not be judged as sinners [condemned]. [Why?] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

In other words "in Christ" I already stand justified, sanctified and glorified. [see 1 Cor 1:30] I am complete in Him!

Good Point Rob.

[skyblue888]

[Robert]

All legalists are known as Bubbas.

teehe

[Robert]

So the clear teaching of scripture is that from the heart flows righteousness. If the heart is right, the rest will follow.

Do you see anything in the teachings of Jesus Christ along the lines of what you're suggesting?

You are out of context....We were discussing Romans and Paul. Paul is the main theologian of the NT. He was set aside by God to explain these types of details.

Those verses you quoted are not clear....Romans is clear. Stick with Paul and learn something. Back to Romans 7

[Robert]

He is thanking God and then goes on to explain why in Chapter 8.

[Robert]

If you wish to have a discussion regarding things I actually believe, please quote things I've actually said.

[Robert]

The pre-converted Paul:

Phil 3:6 ...concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

The converted Paul:

"This is a faithful word, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief."

Note the present tense, "of whom I am chief". This does not infer that Paul didn't grow in grace. Paul was not delusional when it came to comparing his life to Christ's. "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." Paul fell short. No longer was he deceived by his own self-righteousness.

[Guest]

I have no use for Pharisees.

Does this sound like something Jesus or one of His followers would say? Is this what Jesus said of the people who were crucifying him? No. Instead He said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".

What did Stephen say when they were stoning him?

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Robert if you really want people to listen to you, or take you serious at all, you may want to try to incorporate or apply some of the principals that Jesus taught his followers, instead of saying things that Satan teaches his followers. Just a thought.

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 2Tim 2:24,25

[Robert]

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 2Tim 2:24,25

Acts 23:3 WNT "Before long," exclaimed Paul, "God will strike you, you white-washed wall! Are you sitting there to judge me in accordance with the Law, and do you yourself actually break the Law by ordering me to be struck?"

Gal 5:12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Phil 3:1 Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the LORD! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you. 2 Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh--

Matthew 23:4 They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. 5 "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.' 8 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. 13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 16 "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it. 23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. 29 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! 33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD.' "

[Robert]

Quote:

Excellent point! The answer? Romans 8:1,2

1 For this cause those who are in Christ Jesus will not be judged as sinners [condemned]. [Why?] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

In other words "in Christ" I already stand justified, sanctified and glorified. [see 1 Cor 1:30] I am complete in Him!

Good Point Rob.

[Guest]

LOL, whatever. I wasn't talking about getting me to take you serious, because I don't. I was referring to others, who don't know you. I rarely read anything you have to say, because your basic understanding of the gospel is flawed. To the point that it is fairly useless to say anything, since you only come here to argue. Which is a complete waste of time.

[doug yowell]

So, the Rom.7 man,who,with a despairing sense of his own finite weakness,cries out,"O wretched man that I am!Who will deliver me from this body of death?",and who follows by exclaming,"I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!",does not have an Advocate with the Father?Why then is he thanking God?

He is thanking God and then goes on to explain why in Chapter 8.

He is not thanking God for the chapter 7 experience...

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

So, the Rom.7 man,who,with a despairing sense of his own finite weakness,cries out,"O wretched man that I am!Who will deliver me from this body of death?",and who follows by exclaming,"I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!",does not have an Advocate with the Father?Why then is he thanking God?

Excellent point! The answer? Romans 8:1,2

1 For this cause those who are in Christ Jesus will not be judged as sinners [condemned]. [Why?] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

In other words "in Christ" I already stand justified, sanctified and glorified. [see 1 Cor 1:30] I am complete in Him!

Are you sure that's all? Wasn't 7:25 an answer to the question raised in 7:24?Is the Rom.8 man content with the life of the Rom.7 man? Is he merely thanking God that he can now live that life with impunity? Is the freedom from the law of sin and death strictly a freedom from the eternal consequences of that law?

[pnattmbtc]

p:If you wish to have a discussion regarding things I actually believe, please quote things I've actually said.

p:Instead of keeping the law, he does the very thing he hates, which is sin. He is a servant of sin, because he is dominated by "the flesh." He needs to be converted.

R:In other words if you are converted you'll be keeping the law.